Discussion: The Soul

for ex-Brahma Kumaris, to discuss matters related to their experiences in BKWSU & after leaving.
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Discussion: The Soul

Post by bro neo » 03 Sep 2007

OK, the first and last lesson, so who are you (now)?

1st lesson malarky? We're just monkeys with 1 too many brain cells? Or does anyone still think were dirty rotten versions of ex-Gods, (or more recently, ex-Angels)?

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Post by bro neo » 25 Sep 2007

No replies? I am disappointed to not be able to read what my fellow ex-BKs think, or ponder to this great question that defined our #1 core belief as a BK. Maybe the style of my first post seemed a bit aggressive. The aggression is towards the question and our old ‘programmed’ answer not to any potential answers ex-BKs may post.

This is a question long debated by philosophers and scientists and the answer is of course not one that can be answered indefinitely easily or even pondered easily. There is an overload of speculations by thinkers that we have access to in our age of information overload, but it’s the discussion and open-minded pondering that helps makes us move forward, IMHO.

Last night as I lay in bed, before thinking ‘OK, tomorrow I will definitely change the sheets’ (the whole changing the bedding once a week is a little too much for an ex-BK as myself to manage) a thought crept into my mind in that state inbetween falling asleep and sleep. This famous state where great insights have been known to come.

‘Who are you?’. I answered, “I am a child of this world. A child of its chaos and destruction. A child of its beauty and miracles. The great majesty and its primal horrors and putridness”.

I think about this this morning some more and do give most value to my own new world view of things when they are based on empirical information. We look around us on this world and see such natural destructions that wipes out millions in a single tectonic plate move. We also see a majestic cosmic awesome beauty in nature, both in the non sentient and sentient world.

In our life time our closes genetic relative, those monkeys, have also been observed and put on film for all of us to see. We can see how our primal brain would probably act without the interference of our human cerebral cortex. I have learned a lot about human's primal urges by watching how animals behave in the wild on Nat Geo and Discovery.

We learn from the brain scientists and doctors that it’s the release of brain drugs that so possesses us to act on these primal urges. We know from behavioral conditioning and how a proper upbringing or ‘spiritual transformations’ can control and subdue these primal urges that for the animals are essential for the survival of their species.

IMO, history is not 100% reliable but it does give us great food for thought and, from good sources, can provide us with great insight into the psychology of human behavior and its attempt to master it self in this beautiful and horrible world. Religion is much less reliable in its empirical data as it is filled with people’s perspectives under the influence of one thing or another.

This is the most I can ‘know’, at least at where I am today. I have done past life regression and the lives I saw, I have used my form of dream analysis to find deep symbolic meaning in its archetypes. The past lives I saw also could’ve actually occurred but I don’t think I can ‘know’, they may well have been just great insightful communication which came from my subconscious. The before and after of life I cannot ‘know’, all I can ‘know’ is what I am in this life.

This is just a start to a much broader discussion, and no doubt what you think is just as valid as what anyone else thinks, so share, ramble, enlighten us on who you are today.

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Post by master creator » 28 Sep 2007

Not sure if it helps or excites - but saw there was no response to the thread - hence something as below:
  • You are a soul - shining point of light that is a spiritual energy.
    You the soul are child of God.
    Your original qualities are - Peace, Purity, Love, Happiness, Bliss, Happiness & Power.
    You are an eternal being of light.
    You the soul has the part of 84 births recorded in itself.
All the best brother.
IBY, *

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Post by bro neo » 01 Oct 2007

I like your avatar, bet you have one just like it in your wallet.

Looks like your one of the few pukka BKs, not just another sheep. So my great savior and future Royal Divine Majesty, please explain to me the truth behind what you have spoken so I too can be saved and be a servant of yours in the soon coming Golden Age. I am going to need a logical explanation with good empirical facts supporting the claims you have made by the way, that is, if I am worthy to serve you in SatYuga ...

Thank you, Daddy

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Post by master creator » 02 Oct 2007

bro neo wrote:I like your avatar, bet you have one just like it in your wallet. Looks like your one of the few pukka BKs, not just another sheep. So my great savior and future Royal Divine Majesty, please explain to me the truth behind what you have spoken so I too can be saved and be a servant of yours in the soon coming Golden Age. I’m gona need a logical explanation with good empirical facts supporting the claims you have made by the way, that is, if I am worthy to serve you in SatYuga
Dear "son",

Now I know why nobody replied to your thread for several days! And you ought to like that avatar ... after all its your "Real Daddy (Father)" and how can you not like His picture when you are His child! :)

I has posted elsewhere that He resides in my heart - forget the wallet ya! :P You can also try and give him some space there (i.e. in your heart) ... :lol: and following which you will not have such questions!

I just thought of encouraging the thread's discussion by initiating the reply but your reply proved it that its not worth to talk any further! There is nothing more to explain to you about any truth because what I have stated is the truth & not a claim and remember truth is not behind its always in the front. It need not be proved. Its like a sun which no one can hide! :)

If you need more information, then you may come to the local centre for a 7 days course once again i.e. if you feel you want to know more! :lol:

All the best ... with good wishes ...

IBY, *

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Post by jannisder » 02 Oct 2007

excuse me?? :roll: !!

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Post by bro neo » 02 Oct 2007

Indeed jannisder, or should I say, trinity!

master creator, your answer is not going to make me a spiritual child of yours. I told you I need logic. Let me see if I understood what you said properly first though. Your saying that truth needs no explanation because "it just is right", right? This would imply that the experience of what is, is the explanation in and of itself, correct? So the experience of Baba is the truth because it just feels like God, yes?

So what am I suppose to tell a Christian who says to mediate and think of Jesus, Jesus feels like God. Or what about a meth head who says meth feels like God?

Also FYI, it's Shrimat to carry a picture of Baba in your wallet, and I won't be going to the center near me anytime soon. I used to teach there and now feel a strong aversion to the place and its vampires.

In regards to the soul, I think, as an ex-BK I have had to really go through a period of just reformatting the hard drive because everything just kept crashing and going wrong. The whole soul thing for a long time was an issue for me that was both repulsive and not provable. So I just went on without giving it too much thought.

Today, as I continue to learn more and think more for myself with a truly gnostic view of spirituality, I think there is room for the soul as a potential reality. If we close our eyes and imagine the sky, a big blue sky, and then we put in a couple of clouds, white fluffy clouds, the sky is the mind, the clouds are ideas and who am I? I am the observer. (From a Deepak Chopra meditation)

Awareness is truly miraculous. To be aware, constantly, even in a unconscious way, is the miracle of life to me. So many different spiritual philosophies speak of this or that concept of the soul as do the BKs. I definitely have a rebellious and revengeful nature, it’s the Maya in me.

When I left the BKs, I subconsciously probably just wanted nothing to do with Gyan or any aspect of it. As I learn to respond more productively to my subconscious drives and emotions perhaps I can take more from what does make sense within the BKs thinking. It is a highly evolved spiritual philosophy after all, that is the product of many deep thinkers constant tinkering and revising.

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Post by master creator » 03 Oct 2007

bro neo wrote:master creator, your answer is not going to make me a spiritual child of yours.
Also FYI, it's Shrimat to carry a picture of Baba in your wallet,
I don't think I would like to disuss any further on the rest, i.e. the main topic of your thread as it will not be a huge value-add for you since you yourself were a BK teacher.

However, please note that I or my answer are no way interested in making you my spiritual child ... its you who addressed me as Daddy and hence I had to oblige :lol:. And as regards Baba's Shrimat on the picture ... yes, mate! I do have a picture in my wallet ... am sure you too have one! :P Again, I just wanted to encourage others to respond to your thread & hence I initiated response - nothing else.

Enjoy your life - Take care and all the best!

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Post by fluffy bunny » 03 Oct 2007

One fair question to ask is;
  • are BKs experiencing "soul-consciousness" or just some altered state of consciousness?
Now, frankly, a lot of BKs are experiencing NOTHING. A lot sit their day in day out hoping to experience SOMETHING and don't.

May be they had one or two "experiences" or quasi-visions in their Honeymoon Period which quickly evaporated and then they hope that by conforming for years that they will be experience someone again ... but do not.

So, what is the experience of "soul-consciousness"? And within that question, what really is "The Self". Should we not be experiencing "SELF" CONSCIOUSNESS. Are we not more than the stripped down version of reality the BK leadership presents?

In my opinion, what we can most safely say is that SOME BKs, SOME of the time experience an "Altered State of Consciousness" [ASC]. They BELIEVE this ASC to be a "soul-conscious" exprience where as, it may be a Kundalini experience, a Chi experience, a hypnotic experience etc. I, personally, have experience little waves of bliss or happiness (well being) merely induced by a very junior hypnotist.

We were led to believe that the Seniors were walking around in a constant state of total soul-consciousness, which is hard to believe when one has sat watching them snoring away at Amrit Vela or doing the old 'Brahmin Head Nod' routine on a guddhi.

You know what I mean, you have done it yourself ... just about as you fall asleep in meditation, you find your head has fallen and you jerk it back up away to stay awake. It usually happens two or three minutes before the old 'Brahmin Slack Jaw and Chin Dribble' routine. Who has not found themselves laughing at some other BK, fast asleep, with their mouth open, dribbling saliva!?!

Personally, I think most BKs, most of the time are remembering a concept of being in soul-consciousness ... and the lucky few are experiencing ASCs. The ASC is what the BKWSU is selling as soul-consciousness but it probably something else, e.g the overshadowing of the self by another spirit such as Lekhraj Kirpalani, another dead BK or one of their spirit helpers. What the mediums are experiencing is something else to be discussed elsewhere.
  • Anyone care to contradict? BTW, I am not denying the being of "soul", just questioning the experiences or apparent non-experiences.

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soul consciousness, ultimate freedom

Post by alladin » 03 Oct 2007

When the body is sick or tired and we somehow manage to detach from it. When our lives and therefore mind is also presenting unpleasant scenes but we manage to remain "centered", not to be carried away by sorrow or negativity and maintain our own positive energy. The flame of our higher self, I suppose, lit; is not it soul consciousness?

The fact that through practise, I can keep my essence, my core "above" and safe, independent from internal or external pulls from thoughts and events that challenge my peace and happiness, doesn't it prove that I am a being, separate from everything and everybody?

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Re: soul consciousness, ultimate freedom

Post by fluffy bunny » 03 Oct 2007

alladin wrote:The fact that through practise, I can keep my essence, my core "above" and safe, independent ... separate from everything and everybody?
How often though we stop to discern between a conceptual state, which could involve just cutting off emotionally, empathy, feelings for others to protect ourselves, from an enlightened state which I would theorise is a state of such overflowing fullness that nothing would effect us anyway?

Surely, given the 70 odd years of practise and 10s to 100s of 1,000s of followers, there must be an emperical, measurable, state of being that we can pinpoint and say ... "Ah, this person is in soul consciousness now" and use to check? If you were a card-carrying BK, wouldn't you want to know if you had "made it", or would you just want to go along with the rote and ritual of pretending to be something and modifying your language to suit?

I never had an out of the body experiences, so I cant comment. I never found anyone to trully qualify and explain the experiences I did have. I never found them to be universal amongst all or other BKs ... so what is really going on apart from everyone dressing in white and paying for real estate?

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who am I and soul

Post by maybek » 04 Oct 2007

dear all,

thank you bro neo for starting discussion, and master creator and allladin, for your interesting experience. And ex-l for always having a perspective to bring up.

In my experience, soul-consciousness is a like a 'gift' or 'grace' experience, which sometimes we experience again and again, but with different clarity and qualities. I think we enjoy it best when we experience peace, power, gentleness or sweetness of love, happiness etc, but to get there consistently takes time and we kind of pass through the emotional energy of our past lives/ experiences as we keep going.

Any soul conscious experience is therefore in my view a 'high-point' experience (reference to appreciative inquiry) which all of us we try to bring into our lives. Perhaps it is true most BKs live in memory of this; but we can use our 'positive thoughts' and positive experiences to guide our actions.

Some people use thoughts more - the good side is this is very reliable as you can affirm where you are going daily ... but prone to intellectualisation, whether this is Gyan or other things; some use feelings more - so you can use these as a guide, prone to 'it feels right' and maybe other iffy experiences ... I have done both and I am sure you too.

We just have to find the right balance for us; and the right 'positive thoughts'. We know then where we want to go but we experience what we have to transform in order to get there. It is a journey we subscribed to, even though we thought it was the end-point.

We use our positive traits to get us out of the mire or Maya we can see, as our negative tendencies tend to at best give us a respite! we learn to re-define positive and negative as we go along. Sometimes, (well often) we get stuck in one of our previous traits; it is a great shame when that trait links to resentment, bitterness or abuse as it just takes time to get over this. In my view, all of this is soul, to get back to topic.

So, I am a soul, light, non-violent, originally 'viceless and all-virtuous' (to whatever extent you believe this, i do not think it can be proved or logicalised) with divine births etc (waved in front of me like a carrot); I am also all the 63 births of chaos, skills, learning, good, bad, ugly and interesting experiences etc.

Most of us, as BK or not, head gradually towards increasing the light. soul-consciousness and finding truth through experiencing it, and experiencing God as the ocean have always been of singular interest to me, above any belief or theology one 'has to' subscribe to.

Also, ex-l, you can qualify experiences and measure them ... but it has to be a measurement of subjective experience. And all the objective indices you can easily use eg pulse rate, respiratory rate are not going to that reliable all the time ... as what you are measuring will change because of the process involved.

You could try creating a behavioural measure, as this is easier to see objectively ... together with experience, and see if it is indicative of spiritual attainment ... Perhaps someone has the time and skills to do this ...

In the meantime, I think this is why so many people come up with 'charts'.

Not got to grips with this site yet. hope all this comes out as indigo!.

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Post by bro neo » 04 Oct 2007

ex-l wrote:We were led to believe that the Seniors were walking around in a constant state of total soul-consciousness, which is hard to believe when one has sat watching them snoring away at Amrit Vela or doing the old 'Brahmin Head Nod' routine on a guddhi.

You know what I mean, you have done it yourself ... just about as you fall asleep in meditation, you find your head has fallen and you jerk it back up away to stay awake. It usually happens two or three minutes before the old 'Brahmin Slack Jaw and Chin Dribble' routine. Who has not found themselves laughing at some other BK, fast asleep, with their mouth open, dribbling saliva!?!
LMAO! :D
maybek wrote: it has to be a measurement of subjective experience ... and all the objective indices you can easily use eg pulse rate, respiratory rate are not going to that reliable all the time... as what you are measuring will change because of the process involved.
I disagree.

EEGs should be able to monitor and reliably determine the state of one's Soul Consciousness, if it is what the BK’s claim it to be; the highest state of consciousness ... Look at that study with Dadi Janki, stablest mind on the planet. I actually went to that hospital near Madubhan and got an EEG because I wanted to see how I tested as compared to DJ.

Well, I did my mediation and the Drs were not impressed. They even said I might have something wrong with my head. As we talked about it, I asked them what all the Delta activity was then, and then they said, "Ah, that’s when you were in intense Yoga!". Those bloody quacks.

The awareness of a very young child, that awareness of pure innocent love and the excitement of wonder for the world and the remarkable ability to learn to walk and talk, I believe this may be the elusive Soul-Consciousness we are all searching for.

Perhaps BB actually knew this, and so did the SS, but they just rather give us an easier to understand intellectual concept of changing our core beliefs of self image by constantly reinforcing it with conscious self programming and visualization.

My first Year of being Pukka, I swear I walked around with my eyes crossed all the time from concentrating so hard on this constant self imagery and self talk. I saw photos of myself and just thought, yes, I am right and every one else is wrong cause I was doing it, and they just look like a bunch of lazy bones. What I was doing was just brain washing my self into a white wearing BK zombie.

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Post by john » 04 Oct 2007

ex-l wrote:You know what I mean, you have done it yourself ... just about as you fall asleep in meditation, you find your head has fallen and you jerk it back up away to stay awake. It usually happens two or three minutes before the old 'Brahmin Slack Jaw and Chin Dribble' routine. Who has not found themselves laughing at some other BK, fast asleep, with their mouth open, dribbling saliva!?!
:lol: Classic :lol:.

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Re: who am I and soul

Post by fluffy bunny » 04 Oct 2007

maybek wrote:Also, ex-l, you can qualify experiences and measure them ... but it has to be a measurement of subjective experience. And all the objective indices you can easily use eg pulse rate, respiratory rate are not going to that reliable all the time ... as what you are measuring will change because of the process involved.
I think I must disagree too. If "the soul" is as sure as a heart or a hypothalmus, it must have some objective existence. And if a level of consciousness is as sure to make heaven or hell ... then again, it really ought to be evident. Or else we have to admit that after 70 years of BK Raja Yoga we have gotten no where.

You might have not read but on this forum a contributor discovered that the claims made about Janki Kripalani being the "Most Stable Mind in the World" were falsified and, consequently the BKWSU UK wrote an official statement admitting this and withdrawing the claim. Something BKWSU India promptly ignored.

So where is the science? Any attempt at real science? If there is no science, then it is just all Bhakti or a delusion.
bro neo wrote:The awareness of a very young child, that awareness of pure innocent love and the excitement of wonder for the world and the remarkable ability to learn to walk and talk, I believe this may be the elusive Soul-Consciousness we are all searching for.
So, really, you mean "un-self-consciousness"? In the jumble of Lekhraj Kirpalani's mind, the Golden Age of innocence being memories from infancy??? The kumaris ... a heavenly life with his pre-sexual daughters?

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