What is the truth?

for ex-Brahma Kumaris, to discuss matters related to their experiences in BKWSU & after leaving.
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What is the truth?

Post by master creator » 27 Sep 2007

Dear brother souls,

I am regular student of the BKs for few years now. I saw this website since last few days and am sort of disturbed to be frank! Too many conflicting views! Someone says this and other one says this - what is the real truth then???

Yes, I know there is some politics and somethings that are not happening in the right way in BKWSU. But that is sanskars of those certain souls and its their karma for which they will be answerable to Dharamraj!

But that doesn't mean that the knowledge is wrong. I am a soul that is truth. My Father is God Father Shiva - Supreme Soul - that is truth. I am in the process of becoming pure through meditation and God comes through an ordinary medium which is Brahma Baba - even that is truth!

If not then you all tell me who is God and how can one attain God. It has to be one and only Supreme Soul Shiv Baba right? Yes, we have to be in this institution to meet God and have to do with certain irregularities by certain souls who will in turn pay for it in Dharamrajpuri - but that in no way means that the whole thing is falsehood!

Please share your experiences. My experience is that I have experienced God through the BKs and through the knowledge.

IBY, *

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Re: What is the truth?

Post by john » 27 Sep 2007

master_creator wrote:But that doesn't mean that the knowledge is wrong. I am a soul that is truth. My Father is God Father Shiva - Supreme Soul - that is truth. I am in the process of becoming pure through meditation and God comes through an ordinary medium which is Brahma Baba - even that is truth!
The main point as I see it, 'where is God Father Shiva now'?

For a Brahmin in the Yagya, that IS the importance of knowledge, to find the true ShivBaba. Purity is gained through correct remembrance, if ShivBaba is not remembered in the correct way will that lead to complete purity?

I believe BKs have rewritten Murlis to make them agreeable to their own ends, of showing God Father Shiva is part of BapDada, incarnates into Gulzar and now resides in Paramdham. PBKs have revealed points of knowledge to show ShivBaba has not left the corporeal abode and hasn't returned to Paramdham, but is doing his work through the corporeal medium Virendra Dev Dixit.

Other splinter groups claim either ShivBaba incarnates into them or that they are indeed God Father Shiva themselves (Vishnu Party).

It has been shown on this website/forum (with evidence), that BKs have rewritten Murlis and their own history. That doesn't mean that what they say doesn't contain truth, just that is biased towards their own agenda which, in a way, is what all religions do.

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Post by master creator » 27 Sep 2007

Dear brother,

Sorry but - that doesn't answer my question fully!

Then where is Shiv Baba? Accurate way of remembrance is, "I am a point of light and my Father is also a point of light". So I connect to that point of light by considering myself as a soul - point of light. I also heard stories of Virendra Dev Dixit going to jail and all that PBKs is falsehood. Is there any evidence that Shiv Baba is coming only in Virendra Dev Dixit?

I tend to agree with the BKs that Shiv Baba comes into the subtle body of Brahma Baba and then both, i.e. combined form, enters Dadi Gulzar's body.

IBY, *

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Post by fluffy bunny » 27 Sep 2007

Welcome to the family master creator.

In truth, I mean it ... welcome to the family because what you find here is actually a more honest reflection of the reality and variances in the BK family than what you are led to believe or see in a small center. It is just the way it is ... many of unresolved issues, some abuse, some historical re-writing. Please be aware that some of us have been in or around the BKs from 20 or 30 years, some have been center-in-charges and surrendered souls. There are people here from every continent on the planet.

For me, you have experienced what you have experienced. There is no empirical way to say that was "god". It just was what it was ... and it may be good, I will not deny that. Unfortunately, the physical manifestation is lacking.

I suggest you start looking at the history forum and start to get a feel of the historical revisionism within the BKWSU, e.g why did they follow Prajapati God Brahma and the Brahm element for 20 years and how and when was Shiva introduced at some point after 1950 ... ? There are original documents there from the 1930s and 1940s that contradict what we have been told.

I think a large part of the forum is questioning the manner in which the leadership has acted. Where there is dishonest, distrust grows. And there has been dishonesty. Where does it start and where does it finish? As a new BK, you wont know about all the failed predictions of Destruction they used in 1950, 1976, the 1980s, Year 2000 etc ... nor the Murli re-writing.

Yes, I am sorry but it is shocking ... we have all be shocked when our eyes opened to what the BKWSU has become. Also, you might attend an innocent center ... not all are. We also question the trends that are spreading through Western centers relating to business, status and money making which would seem to us to go against the Maryadas.

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Post by master creator » 27 Sep 2007

Hello brother,

will it be possible to send me the relevant specific link. In the history forum there are several topics ... can you please guide me to the one that you have mentioned.

Also, if possible can you please share your experiences and the reason for leaving Baba's Gyan?
ex-l wrote:As a new BK, you wont know about all the failed predictions of Destruction they used in 1950, 1976, the 1980s, Year 2000 etc ... nor the Murli re-writing.
I have been around for 7 yrs or so. My understanding is that - I know 1976 was used as a test by Baba to check on the faith and of course am aware of some revisions from time to time which i understand is only to avoid disservice. You can explain further may be.

IBY, *

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Post by fluffy bunny » 27 Sep 2007

master_creator wrote:will it be possible to send me the relevant specific link.
I think the best one to start with is Original picture of Tree with "The 8". What did they tell you about the 1950 prediction or that they believed WWII was the end and that they were writing to the Generals and Marshalls telling them to destroy the world? The papers are all here to see. We were told mid 1980s would be Destruction; 50 years for Destruction, 50 years for Creation. That changed to ... then there was Year 2000 ... it goes on being changed. They keep all the property and donations.

We may have written our reasons for leaving Gyan in another topic. I will have a look and get back to you. Personally, I got sick of the self-advertising and "look at us" mentality rather than genuine upliftment. I did not like the way the center-in-charges/Seniors interfered with my life and did not seem to be able to answer what were very simple, central questions about the Yagya, Yoga and knowledge. They seemed to have their "business" and "show" but if you scratched the surface deeper they could not, or would not answer. I felt manipulated.

What I have discovered of the history is that my intuitions were correct. Despite whatever benefit there is, the history is false and the philosophy is being subtly changed by them as John says. I think they are controlling the BKs masses to keep them down in their position and defend their own high position.

I cant understand how truth can be promoted through lies and how Godly, for example, the BKs trying to shut this site down is. I have since heard of too many abuses ... I am genuinely concerned at what is going on.

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Post by john » 27 Sep 2007

master_creator wrote:Sorry but - that doesn't answer my question fully!
I cannot answer your question. All I tried to do was give you a quick summary and say that the answer is in the knowledge. But if you are getting partial or biased(rewritten) knowledge from BKs, how will you gain the full picture?

As part of this site we are requesting that all Murlis be made available for study and let the individual make up their own mind.
I also heard stories of Veerendra Dev Dixit going to jail and all that PBKs is falsehood.
Where did you hear this?
Accurate way of remembrance is, "I am a point of light and my Father is also a point of light". So I connect to that point of light by considering myself as a soul - point of light.
But, where does God Father Shiva point of light reside?

If it is in Paramdham, then BKs could be correct here. If in the corporeal medium Virendra Dev Dixit, then PBK knowledge has to be taken as God Father Shiva's word.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 27 Sep 2007

master_creator wrote:of course I am aware of some revisions from time to time which I understand is only to avoid disservice.
Is it possible that God could do disservice to God? Or could it be Dada Lekhraj Kirpalani that is doing disservice to God? Which would it be? I am sure others will ffer you specific examples, but who, and how, do the BKs decide which bits to edit out?

I think we reject the "Baba testing us" equation pretty much across the board as a bit of Bhakti that has stuck, or been regurgitated, in Gyan. Has anyone ever asked Baba/BapDada if this is true? Why wont the leadership allow such direct questions? And why don't they tell newcomers?

You appear not to have heard of the 1950 "test". Is this really how God works?

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welcome to freedom zone

Post by alladin » 27 Sep 2007

Hi, Master-Creator, welcome to the Forum. Wish you will gain as much clarity and benefit from interacting on it as I did!

This is the safe place where there are no hyerarchies, hidden agendas, manipulation, dogmas, taboos or ready-made answers to any question.

A space where both feelings as well as logic have a right to live and express themselves.

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Post by bkti-pit » 28 Sep 2007

Welcome to the forum Master-Creator!

I myself joined this forum only a few months ago and I have taken benefit from it. I would say that basically this forum is about Truth. I think this is what motivates most if not everyone here.

Truth is multifaceted. One way it is addressed here is by trying to establish the historical truth of how this organization, its knowledge and beliefs took birth and evolved. Although still incomplete, I have learned more about the true history of "my" BK family in a few weeks here, from people that are considered as outcast and anti by the BK management than in 24 years as a BK.

Another aspect is that this forum is trying to establish the truth about what is currently happening in the BK politics and image building, what is happening behind the scenes and is evidently willingly kept secret and hidden from by the management.

I also see a genuine effort to maintain truth in relationships and communications within the forum itself.
Master-Creator wrote:I am a soul that is truth. My Father is God Father Shiva - Supreme Soul - that is truth. I am in the process of becoming pure through meditation and God comes through an ordinary medium which is Brahma Baba - even that is truth! ... I tend to agree with the BKs that Shiv Baba comes into the subtle body of Brahma Baba and then both, i.e. combined form, enters Dadi Gulzar's body.
Despite everything I read here I still believe that all that is true and feel that it is where I belong.

Truth is a very interesting topic. I find it fascinating. To a great extent my BK life has been a journey of Truth: truth about God, truth about myself, truth in my relationships with others and truth in my relationship with the whole creation. Truth is about understanding and it is something dynamic, evolving. Understanding is made of logic but also of feelings. How do I understand my mother, my friend, my child? A lot of it is with my heart. How will I understand those who think differently, have different beliefs, different values, those who may hurt me? How can I understand myself? How can I understand and thus know God? I think it is a mix of logic and feelings and I think love is a useful ingredient in the mix.

As I said somewhere else, to me the main thing is the expression of Truth in action, in relationships, in feelings towards the self an others, through love, understanding, respect, warmth, generosity, honesty, happiness, humility... To me this is the ultimate Truth that I am aiming for. Any truth that doesn't bear the fruits of benevolence and justice is to a large extent irrelevant to me.
john wrote:The main point as I see it, 'where is God Father Shiva now'? For a Brahmin in the Yagya, that IS the importance of knowledge, to find the true ShivBaba. Purity is gained through correct remembrance, if ShivBaba is not remembered in the correct way will that lead to complete purity?
It is said in the Murlis that we remember God in Bakhti but we don't get much out of it because we do not know him accurately. It is also said that very few know him as he is.

I can only say that my understanding of knowledge and my experiments with remembrance within the limits of my understanding have benefited me a lot in many ways and I definitely became a much better and more truthful person.

The first time I went to Madhuban I had full faith that it was God speaking the Murlis, whether they were Sakar or Avyakt Murlis and I had never paid too much attention to Brahma Baba. It was interesting for me to, at my own surprise, have the distinct feeling of the two personalities of Shiv Baba and Brahma Baba in Dadi Gulzar's body when I was receiving my personal blessing from Baba. These were the good old days when we still had personal meetings.

I am not sure if I could express or define more clearly what the distinction was between the two and it is certainly not something I can prove but I consider it as an important element in my personal journey towards Truth.

I am aware of the debate about where Shiva actually is but, in terms of accurate remembrance and personal benefits, I wonder how much it matters. When I remember someone I love, wherever that person is at that moment, I can feel his/her personality and enjoy his/her company, so to speak. I feel I am spending a nice time with him/her and I believe that something is being communicated subtly between us. Similarly, when I have a good time remembering Shiv Baba and I am being healed and I am gaining strength by spending time in his/her subtle company, does it matter so much where he/she is at that time?

Now, I am not discarding the possibility that the PBKs could be right about Shiv Baba using a different Chariot and that I could have been wrong all that time. I have been investigating that possibility by talking with PBK and ex-PBK friends and gathering information from their website but, although there is much that I like about them, their dharna and their explanations of Gyan, I have yet to be convinced.

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Post by master creator » 28 Sep 2007

john wrote:Where did you hear this?
Brother - please check out the "The Story of Veerendra Dev Dixit" in the "Other BK Splinter groups" section -there are even newspaper cuttings and photos as evidence.
But, where does God Father Shiva point of light reside? If it is in Paramdham, then BKs could be correct here. If in the corporeal medium Veerendra Dev Dixit, then PBK knowledge has to be taken as God Father Shiva's word.
I would say:

Yes, Shiv Baba very much resides in Paramdham and also in my heart :).

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Post by master creator » 28 Sep 2007

ex-l wrote:Is it possible that God could do disservice to God? Or could it be Dada Lekhraj Kirpalani that is doing disservice to God? Which would it be? I am sure others will ffer you specific examples, but who, and how, do the BKs decide which bits to edit out? I think we reject the "Baba testing us" equation pretty much across the board as a bit of Bhakti that has stuck, or been regurgitated, in Gyan. Has anyone ever asked Baba/BapDada if this is true? Why wont the leadership allow such direct questions? And why don't they tell newcomers? You appear not to have heard of the 1950 "test". Is this really how God works?
Yes brother, that's true - I have not heard of the 1950 test.

My understanding is that this is part of the test process. Yes, why not - there is a possibility that my faith is being tested. And as I write this - after I came across this site - it feels like a big test and the intellect is just about to turn doubtful. Hope I will pass this test and walk on the right path which is Truth and nothing but Truth.

I would be happy if you can explain in detail your understanding of God and His role in the current scene of the world drama.

Thank you very much for the link that you gave me earlier.

IBY, *

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Post by master creator » 28 Sep 2007

john wrote:The main point as I see it, 'where is God Father Shiva now'? For a Brahmin in the Yagya, that IS the importance of knowledge, to find the true ShivBaba. Purity is gained through correct remembrance, if ShivBaba is not remembered in the correct way will that lead to complete purity?
BKTi-Pit wrote:I am aware of the debate about where Shiva actually is but, in terms of accurate remembrance and personal benefits, I wonder how much it matters. When I remember someone I love, wherever that person is at that moment, I can feel his/her personality and enjoy his/her company, so to speak. I feel I am spending a nice time with him/her and I believe that something is being communicated subtly between us. Similarly, when I have a good time remembering Shiv Baba and I am being healed and I am gaining strength by spending time in his/her subtle company, does it matter so much where he/she is at that time?
Firstly, I want to thank all of you for such warm welcome! I fully agree brother ... it doesn't matter where he/she is. Our love for Shiv Baba is important and He is the One who will take our boat across. Thank you so much for sharing your experiences. Appreciate that.

That apart, I will be glad if John Bhai can throw some more light on where Shiva Baba is - if he is aware of the truth as my aim of coming on this forum is to reach the Truth. And my understanding of correct/accurate remembrance is as I expressed earlier that just to connect with Shiv Baba the point of light by considering myself as a soul, i.e. a point of light ... communication between two spirits - me & Him.
john wrote:If it is in Paramdham, then BKs could be correct here. If in the corporeal medium Veerendra Dev Dixit, then PBK knowledge has to be taken as God Father Shiva's word.
Thanks John Bhai - but what is the truth - do you know or does anyone else know? I once again thank you for your contribution earlier on this thread and its good that we are requesting for full Murlis being made available for study.

IBY, *

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Post by tinydot » 28 Sep 2007

master_creator wrote:Yes, Shiv Baba very much resides in Paramdham and also in my heart :)
hello master_creator,

welcome to the forum. I was just reminded of lesson two as taught by my instrument teacher in Gyan. "God is not omnipresent."

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Post by paulkershaw » 28 Sep 2007

master_creator wrote:Hope I will pass this test and walk on the right path which is Truth and nothing but Truth.
Hey there Master Creator, welcome to the forum and thank you for your gentle and honest approach, to me its wonderful that you have an enquiring mind and are willing to look at different approaches and the fact that you've come on board this forum in such a beautiful manner really highlights who you are. Welcome!

I feel to share with you that you've hit the nail on the head by saying that you wish to walk the right path of truth and nothing but truth and I'd say that thats in all probability true for every single member of this forum too, so thank you for bringing that up. I have learnt that there is not one single truth out there but truth is what makes one able to love unconditionally and maintain a light vibration and healthy consciousness.

I also so enjoyed your posting about having God in your heart, for that alone seems to me to be the truth everyone should be experiencing no matter where or how we practice our faith.

For me, on a personal level, I keep looking to the Truth and not for it.
Greetings of Light xxxx

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