Cult-like aspects of BKWSU

for ex-Brahma Kumaris, to discuss matters related to their experiences in BKWSU & after leaving.
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eromain
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Post by eromain » 07 Oct 2006

dear dmitry,

The simplest way i can ask given your English is this: how do you know that the experiences in meditation are not caused by self-hypnosis or hypnosis by the person leading the meditation

regards
eugene

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john
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Post by john » 07 Oct 2006

Eromain

But can we discount hypnotic experiences as not being true? What about hypnotic regression?

Hypnotism has almost a cult dirty word connotation, it has become a byword for some organisations/cults taking over the minds of people for sinister ends, when used in the context of cults. Yet do any of those cults actually use hypnotic techniques?

I think I understand where you are coming from and maybe Yoga and hypnotism does overlap in some ways. Are Yoga experiences true and valid?... I think they are to the person having them, but in no way can be said to be an absolute truth.

Has anyone on this forum ever actually been hypnotised or put through regression and could explain what it is like?

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Post by eromain » 07 Oct 2006

Hi john,

I didn’t discount hypnotic experiences as not being true.

What about hypnotic regression? I don’t know –what about it, you’ll need to explain what you mean.

Hypnotism doesn’t for me mean something dirty or sinister. But as to your question as to whether cults use hypnotic techniques yes they do, as do many if not most forms of mass communication –tv, cinema etc etc. Read a book about hypnosis and you re-position it from being something associated with the alleyways of cults and mind-control to one of the main and common thoroughfares of life. Hypnosis is everywhere we do it all the time – it is one of the most natural and common faculties of the mind.

When you say that Yoga experiences are true to the person experiencing them I don’t understand what you are asserting. Please explain eg if I meditate and have an intense experience of being say an Angel how is that true for me? I am assuming that you don’t just mean that it feels authentic or feels true and therefore it kind of is. I realize that this might seem pedantic, but I want to understand exactly what you are saying.

Regards
eugene

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Post by bkdimok » 07 Oct 2006

eromain wrote:how do you know that the experiences in meditation are not caused by self-hypnosis or hypnosis by the person leading the meditation
First of all, whilst a man is in a hypnotic stage of mind, he does not realise what is going on around him. When I am doing Yoga I know exactly all about the process and what is going on outside my mind. I may focus on my inside world or on outside world whenever I want it. Person under hypnosis cannot chose.

Secondly, all my experiences in meditation are not constant, they have something in common but they are deferent. And from day to day they becoming more interesting and exciting.

As for the person who is leading meditation is hypnosing me, I don't think so. I know many hypnosic methods and did not saw any of them were used by teachers.

With regards.
BK Dmitry

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eromain
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Post by eromain » 07 Oct 2006

Can I ask what are these many hypnotic methods you know because you sound to me like you and I are talking about two completely different things.

regards
Eugene

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john
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Post by john » 07 Oct 2006

Eromain wrote:Hypnotism doesn’t for me mean something dirty or sinister. But as to your question as to whether cults use hypnotic techniques yes they do, as do many if not most forms of mass communication – tv, cinema etc etc. Read a book about hypnosis and you re-position it from being something associated with the alleyways of cults and mind-control to one of the main and common thoroughfares of life. Hypnosis is everywhere we do it all the time – it is one of the most natural and common faculties of the mind.
Yes, I fully agree with this ... but where is the difference between hypnotism and strong daily influence ... OK, you could say strong influence is like brainwashing, but as you say it goes on all the time with all sorts of things, so in that case is not a perculiar event to Yoga.
if I meditate and have an intense experience of being say an Angel how is that true for me? I am assuming that you don’t just mean that it feels authentic or feels true and therefore it kind of is. I realize that this might seem pedantic, but I want to understand exactly what you are saying.
Well, if someone has an intense experience of being an angel is it true?

Actually I can only answer that with an opinion as so can you. When Brahma Baba had a vision of being Vishnu, was that true ... For me, in some ways yes and some ways no ... Was he going to grow four arms in the future? ... No ... but is he going to become a perfect being as depicted by Vishnu? Then I believe, yes.

Now, as to me in a state of Yoga, experiencing peace and happiness, yes for me that is true...whether it means I'll always be in that state I don't know, but it is an example to me of the possibilities.
People have so many different experienes in Yoga and even in religious mystical experiences, can they all be true? Logic tells me they cannot all be true, but I think some of them are ...
What about hypnotic regression? I don’t know –what about it, you’ll need to explain what you mean.
Yes, sorry I should have explained further I meant past life regression under hypnosis.

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Post by eromain » 07 Oct 2006

John,
Hypnosis is a fairly technical thing and personally I think it is fascinating because it does border on strong daily influences etc: but that doesn’t mean that all strong daily influences amount to hypnosis, nor all hypnosis amounts to strong daily influence. If you are interested in the issues surrounding it I would suggest some serious reading on the matter because I am finding it hard to have this conversation when I suspect that we don’t share an understanding of the term. I think if you read up on it you will find that it is a matter that this forum could and should concern itself with.
Cheers
eugene

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Post by john » 07 Oct 2006

Eromain.

Thank you for your advice.

The things I appear to not understand about hypnotism I am quite happy for you to enlighten me about ... I too find it fascinating.

I was thinking earlier how the word 'Brainwashing', in an ironic twist, has become a tool for Brainwashing.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 08 Oct 2006

John wrote:The things I appear to not understand about hypnotism I am quite happy for you to enlighten me about ... I too find it fascinating ...
I have had some personal experience with "Light Trance" hypnotism that I am happy to share/relate. But I would appreciate a short summary or breakdown of what you are talking about in relationship to BK Raja Yoga.

You have brought up this book that you have read before but never clarified what you mean. A few bullet points would be enough to give me some idea of the ground.

Thanks.

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Post by bkdimok » 08 Oct 2006

eromain wrote:Can I ask what are these many hypnotic methods you know because you sound to me like you and I are talking about two completely different things.
Dear soul. Om Shanti. When I am talking about many hypnotic methods, I mean what there is a lot of ways to achieve that stage of mind. The most common are described in Jhon Grinder and Richard Bendler's books. Among them (methods) are (translation from Russian): verbal enrollment and leading, nonverbal enrollment and leading, natural appearing stages of hypnosis, usage of anchors, pattern break etc. etc. All names of these methods were given by authors and maybe you couldn't meet them in books of other authors.

With regards.
BK Dmitry

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Post by eromain » 08 Oct 2006

Hi john and ex-l

My boys are coming home today so this burst of hyperactive posting is going to hit a brick wall. I would like at some point sit down and write a piece about hypnosis in BK Raja Yoga but it isn’t going to happen soon.

In the meantime you could try the book, “Self Hypnosis Plain and Simple” by Simpkins and Simpkins. It is a quick easy introduction and large parts of it read like a book on meditation.

Or go to http://www.nlpuniversitypress.com/html/H38.html for a good explanation. There's about 6 pages or so to read but its very well done.

A much more technical read is, “Hypnotic Language” by Bodenhammer and Burton. Bodenhammer was a student of the guys Grinder and Bandler that Dmitry referred to. This is not a fun read but it explains how terms such as Brahma Kumaris Spiritual University work in a hypnotic way.

(When our brains encounter terms they start a TDS – a "transderivational search", they look for memories of previous usages of the term so that they can pick the most likely meaning. With foreign words the TDS fails and we have a little glitch in the system as part of us keeps on searching. This makes us much more receptive to whatever terms come straight after. So, the idea of spiritual university gets accepted and implanted much more readily and deeply than it would have if it hadn’t come before “Brahma Kumaris”. The proper English translation for the whole term is “The virginal daughters of the God of creation’s spiritual university”.)

Cheers
eugene

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eromain
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Post by eromain » 08 Oct 2006

Hi dmitry,

By the way, please don’t call me soul. It is not my name or what I am. My name is Eugene or Eromain and I am a human being. Thanks

I haven’t read Grinder and Bandler on hypnotism but many of their students such as Hall and Bodenhammer.

Are you really telling me that you haven’t noticed the use of, for example, anchors in BK Raja Yoga ??? Or leading?? How can one do a meditation commentary without leading?

Cheers eugene

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Post by bkdimok » 08 Oct 2006

eromain wrote:Are you really telling me that you haven’t noticed the use of, for example, anchors in BK Raja Yoga ??? Or leading?? How can one do a meditation commentary without leading?
Dear Eugene. OK. I wonder, do you agree what many people are using such methods as anchors or leading and do not realise what exactly they are doing at the moment? For example when you are telling someone an interesting story, do you lead him through it or not? If we are talking about leading as a part of hipnosic method, then accordingly to those authors I had read, in order to put someone into hypnotic stage you must do a lot of things before starting to lead a person. Also all this actions must be done properly and in a strong order. To become a good hypnotist one must study it well for a long period. As for different parts of hypnotic methods, I suppose that they are used unconsciously in different parts of our life: education, TV, advertising, press, sales, relationships etc etc.

As for BK Raja Yoga, I don't think that someone who is experienced hypnotist was involved into establishing methods of teaching. In one advertisment, you will see more hypnosis than in all BK Raja Yoga. Of course, in order to teach more people those things which you consider are worth to study, you must attract their attention to that knowledge. But when interest appears all you have to do is explain that knowledge. As for me I do know methods of hypnosis and can apply them whist explaining to others, but I do know that you cannot force someone to follow this path with happiness unless he choses it himself. So I give them information for thought and explain those things which they do not understand. Everyone must base his choise on his own thoughts about right and wrong. If one find's this interesting - greetings, if no - it is his own decision, what else can I make. Forcing someone to do something he doesn't understand or like will bring only unhappiness right now or in the future undoubtedly. Such methods as persuading or hypnosis may bring only permanent effect. Person will do, but it will be not his choise. So in the future he/she will leave just because it was not his/her own choise.

If you want to benefit someone you will give him food for thought and right to choose whatever he wants.

With regards.
BK Dmitry

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Post by andrey » 09 Oct 2006

By the way, please don’t call me soul. It is not my name or what I am. My name is Eugene or Eromain and I am a human being.
Why? Are you not a soul? Is there something bad in being a soul? A name is given to the body. This body and the name will change. A human being is soul in a body. It is something natural.

It is amazing how people who has had some experiences with the BK then appear on stage with criticism, having come and gone due to their own choice, wish, or shortcoming. Like someone was mentioning the bathing after visiting the closet. So ... its a good habit. No one has pushed you into it. If you don't like it leave it. Why ironize? OK, you say BKs are only bad i say i have never seen anything bad from them. When will we reach agreement?

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Post by sparkal » 09 Oct 2006

The BKs gave us words to describe things which we had not met before, experiences/awareness which only they have given us words to understand, which makes it very difficult to lose BK terminology.

The likes of the Scientologists call the Soul 'thetan' or something. It refers however to the same thing, but without connotations to the past. When we walk from the BKs, we also want to walk from the terminology. There is nothing wrong in this, indeed, it shows progress.

The answer? Go around all day saying "Baba Baba" :roll:

As for brainwashing, It is better to have your brain washed by the BK teachings than by what is generally on offer via the usual chanels such as TV, movies etc

Harry Tuttle - spiritual engineer

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