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for ex-Brahma Kumaris, to discuss matters related to their experiences in BKWSU & after leaving.
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Post by fluffy bunny » 02 Feb 2007

When we discuss such issues, we are not just discussing the issues themselves, we are attempting to understand the mind of God and His rationale. We are also attempting to see if our subtle intuitions match up with what is being fed to our logical mind through the verbal and institutional channels, to see if we recognize this individual as our God. Where they do not, we want answers.
arjun wrote:What if someone becomes a BK/PBK after being appointed as a soldier and cannot leave the Army until the bond period is over. In that case he has to definitely follow the orders of his superiors, including the orders to kill the enemy ... .

In the West, there were many incidents of conscientious objectors. Individuals whose spiritual conscience told them that fighting was wrong and who refused to go to war. In the first place, the army, government used to kill them or put them in prison and society persecute them but gradually, over the course of the 20th Century, individuals won the right not to fight and society came to respect them for their strength and their position. In the more developed Western nations such as Germany and Scandinavia, where there is national service, individuals can now chose to do medical or community service instead of military. I am surprised that in Gandhi's India you do not have the choice ... and wonder why the "God of Love" does not encourage individuals to resist killing.
I don't know whether this can be done or not, but I have definitely seen a Murli point where Baba has spoken about the BK/PBK mothers in bondages, who have to suffer forced sex. I think Baba has said that they should remember Baba at that time, then the sin would not accrue to them. But if one indulges in sex just for pleasure, under the pretext that anything could be done in remembrance of God Shiv, then I don't think that would be allowed by Baba. Moreover, have we achieved such a hundred percent soul conscious stage where indulging in sex would not lead to discharge of spiritual and physical power?.

So what is different between doing an action out of a salaried "duty" or servitude and doing an action out of pleasure? What about the solider or policeman that enjoys killing and beating, the general or politician that enjoys making war? Again, we are talking broad principles here. And why did God Shiva like or instruct individuals to just submit to superiors rather than encourage individuals to think for themselves and to take a stand against injustice ... given that most war is entirely bogus and born out of greed and most crime in born out of poverty and a lack of education.

If we correlate this to the other recent thread on the BKWSU's Human Greatness service plan, "America's part in world history reflects the ongoing human struggle of good over evil, order over chaos" ... we see the BKWSU sucking up to the worse aggressor on the planet, one willing to murder 100,000s to feed its greed for oil and one that has built and financed nearly every totalitarian, repressive regime on the planet (including Stalinist Russia). Are America's wars, just wars ... fighting good over evil and to go fight in them soul conscious?

My supposition would be that sex for pleasure and war for profit and gain are in the same category. The are both lusts. Refering to the top of the this thread, what if a sex worker (prostitute) comes into Gyan? Is her work worse than a soldier? Should she give it up or just have remembrance. What is she too has been sold into sex slavery and needs to work her bond off. The pat BKWSU answer is, or was, that sex is worse than murder because in sex, two people were killed. That is the sort of stuff I remember us being told.
I am writing the above line as a BK/PBK. So Ex-BKs please excuse me. They might have a different opinion from me. However, I would seek Baba's answer on this important matter ... I think we cannot equate a soldier killing an enemy under the orders of his Officer or out of patriotism with the suicide bombers/terrorists. The objective and result of the actions in both cases is vastly different. In the former case the killer is defending his homeland or obeying the orders of his Officer, but in the latter case a person is adopting violence on his own to kill enemies/innocent people in the name of God/religion. This may be a subject of debate. But I think most people would agree.

Of course, we all respect you Arjun. We serve you up very difficult moral dilemmas to fit into a Godly frameworks and you have never once stepped out of line, taken it personally, and reacted egotistically. And, of course, these are not addressed at you personally.

For many America, as an example, is the greatest terrorist, having replaced Britain and the primary colonial power. Terrorist both by its outright war, interfering with other nation's internal political, funding of terrorist states such as Israel and, lastly, via its energy and environmental policies (or lack thereof). Why should patriotism be limited, and sanctioned, to the game of nation states rather than other issues such as religion, the environment or even animal rights? (All areas where the United States of Terrorism accuses infinitely smaller aggressors).

Obviously patriotism is deeply body-conscious, as is nationalism. But either Lekhraj Kirpalani or Shiva seems awfully fond of it. Personally, I would have thought a truly "Spiritual Organization" would have been steered entirely the other direction, away from nationalistic tendencies, to teach oneness of all. Rather than be encouraged to milk it or sanction warring for it.

Really, honestly, what gives George Bush, say, more moral or spiritual authority than Bin Laden to condemn young men and women to death? Or the Palestinians less moral or spiritual authority than the American funded Zionists who are killing them at the ratio of 5 or 10 to 1? India over Pakistan?

Are BapDada just canny politicians that seem the most benefit for their organization by taking sides with top dogs, how ever much they stink, and not rocking the boat? The clever monkeys out to steal the butter from the fighting cats?

Yes, this is a very tough line of questioning. It is putting God the Dot on the spot. I would not expect a poignant answer in a public forum and so no need to ask it for me. I am not worthy of having questions answered as I am not follow all principles and meditation, and as such could never been expected to understand or accept his Shrimat.

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Post by bansy » 02 Feb 2007

America ... Bush ... terror ... have you been watching Moore's Fahrenhiet 911 :P

Well, I have. One of the things is that if there was no war, then there is no army, then there are no soldiers, then there is no killings (military). Very often the army itself is created out of wanting power (tamo), it is in itself the terror. Terror beget terror. Army created out of fear. One of the things about that film was they way it would hire the weak uneducated and unemployed people, easy targets in need of a salary, to enlist in the army, and then be dispatched to war to face an enemy they really knew little about a few years ago when they were simply studying for SATs or A-Levels. But if the billions of money that governments put in military was placed into the social welfare of their countries, such as jobs programs, these soldiers could quit the army and get training skills and work in an office instead. Well, they probably wouldn't need to join an army in the first place. As there is not an army at all to join.

No, it would be nice to fix politics in a day. But its gone too far. The political and power landscape has gone too far. Maybe even beyond God's control it seems.

So back to the poor lonely BK soldier who has no choice it seems, but to kill because God is unable to provide that empowerment to offer love to another soul at the time when it is really needed. That is drama, that is karma between the peoples involved. So the rifle is aimed at you. Better you pull the trigger, rather than me, says the superior officer. So under the command of the lusty egoistic commanding officer, the trying-hard-to-be-pure BK soldier has to slit the throat of his enemy, who could very well also be a BK soldier, a spiritual brother whom they may have even gone to the same centre that morning, well to do that takes a lot of soul power. The blood is in his commanding officer's hand of course. At Amrit Vela, that BK soldier will have to forgive his commander for not understanding.

This is a difficult thread.

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Post by abrahma kumar » 02 Feb 2007

This is a difficult thread
And well done for tackling it with such open-minded earnestness.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 03 Feb 2007

bansy wrote:So back to the poor lonely BK soldier who has no choice it seems, but to kill because God is unable to provide that empowerment to offer love to another soul at the time when it is really needed.
So, conceiveably you have one BK in one army pointing a rifle at another BK in an opposing army. Both are "Remembering Baba" ... what do they do next?

Global Military spending is now over $1000 Billion Dollars while children starve each hour ... BKWSU's erstwhile stable mates, the UN, says that a $40 billion increase in development funding could feed, clothe, and educate the entire globe.

Let's be honest, for the most part the money spent on "defence" doesn't really go on defence; it goes on offence; it feeds the profits of the military-industrial complex; it maintains the economic status quo. Would humanity not be safer if they gave the taxpayers their money back?

National Annual Military Budgets circa 2002
United States $396.1 Billion (for 2007 it was raised to $470 Billion, ten time more than the UN calculations)*
Russia $60.0
China $42.0
Japan $40.4
UK $34.0
* official figures only, not including black budget spending fuelled by drugs, illegal money dealing and other crimes nor the money used to wage economic war and to manipulate financial markets in its favor. (Note that in the late 90s, the US Department of Justice estimated that the proceeds of the drug trade entering the US banking system were between $500 and $1,000 billion annually, or more than 5-10% of GDP). The United States government has operated a secret budgeting and spending program for decades outside the framework of the American Constitution.

But don't worry folks ... its fighting good over evil and putting New World Order into chaos.

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Post by arjun » 03 Feb 2007

John wrote:
Hang on a minute if killing is OK whilst remembering ShivBaba, then can it be concluded that sex is OK whilst remembering ShivBaba and any sin for that matter?

Arjun wrote:
I don't know whether this can be done or not, but I have definitely seen a Murli point where Baba has spoken about the BK/PBK mothers in bondages, who have to suffer forced sex.
"Pavitrata par hee jhagdaa padtaa hai. Agar jabardasti ganda kartey hain, toh kya kar saktee ho. Achha, ShivBaba ko Yaad kartee raho. Case toh bahut hotay hain na. Vighna toh bahut padengey."

"Quarrels (or disputes) take place on purity only. If the husband makes you dirty (i.e. forces sex upon you) forcibly, then what con you do? O.k. keep remembering ShivBaba. Many cases take places, isn’t it? Many obstacles will be created." [Revised Sakar Murli 18/12/71 Pg-3 published by BKs and narrated by Father Shiv through Brahma Baba]

Note: Translation done by a PBK.
Of course, we all respect you Arjun. We serve you up very difficult moral dilemmas to fit into a Godly frameworks and you have never once stepped out of line, taken it personally, and reacted egotistically. And, of course, these are not addressed at you personally.
Thanks for those kind words.
Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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Post by sparkal » 14 Feb 2007

As far as I am concerned, every war in history, or just about, has been an act of ritual human sacrifice. Get two sides fighting with each other, then send the red cross in to collect the highly Adrenalin charged blood for those and such as those to drink. Slurp! Ever wondered why every second movie made is another Dracula remake? Or Frankenstein? That is not to say that what I just said is the truth, but there is a case for wondering if it is better just to sup the lies. You don't mind lies do you? :roll:

Modern warfare? well, if you want to build casinos on peoples land, just start a war in the hood(divide and rule), supply both sides with weapons and make a few quid while you are at it. Or what about a bomb under the sea to create a huge tsunami?. Test tube "Aids" could earn you a few hectares in Africa maybe, I mean, who in these places have deeds for their land. Are you listening New Orleans? I presume the icing on the cake is latest Bond movie Casino Royal. Yes, Bliar has taught the kids many good habits, an example to follow ... to the international court where he will be put on trial for crimes against humanity, an independent court, with his pal George Shrub of course.

I wonder, has Shiva taken to building a global casino franchise? :? I mean, George Grass claims to have a personal relationship with God. Could it be that planet earth is a rougher place than most BKs would otherwise think? I suspect so. We are dealing with the crudity of earth with the contrast of the purity beyond and no doubt taking time for it all to digest.

We could consider the "cartoon" theory also. And, does the soul leave the body before the actual event? I suspect so, as do many others. So things may not always be as they appear to be. Though, I would not go as far as to condone killing. I wonder if the Oxford leadership ranch (yeeha! pheep! pheep! mooo!) have any plans to install a super casino at Oxford and if the BKs would be willing to put 40g a year towards it?

Come to think of it, I just may almost possibly have an Idea for a possible project which might just qualify for such a boon, almost. Did I mention my lokik family bloodline? And I also rub shoulders with greedy snobs. (that should do the trick) :|

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Post by bansy » 14 Feb 2007

The title of this thread just prompted me to try recalling what was in the Murlis.

In the Murlis, are there instructions on how to name your "University-cum-hospital" or Gitapathshalas ? Why cannot every "shop" of the BKWSU simply say "Prajapita Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University", instead of the various names such as Inner Space, Oxford Leadership Academy, etc etc which ex-l has extracted ? Is is shameful to bear the title of the Godly University use of the words "Prajapita Brahma Kumaris", regardless of which country you are in ?

Why does one need to hide or drop "Prajapita Brahma Kumaris" ? The Prajapita Brahma Kumaris Foundation wouldn't be an appropriate name instead of the Janki Foundation ? etc For example, are we assuming that if Dadi Janki (bless her) should pass away, then that it is the intention that her name is remembered with the Foundation, or will the Foundation's name get changed ? Why is not GCH called PBKGCH ? And so on.

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Post by zhuk » 15 Feb 2007

^^Maybe because "Prajapita Brahma Kumaris" doesn't feel as Westernised-new-agey-touchy-feely as names such as Inner Space, Oxford Leadership Academy, etc and so might scare away those new initiates ... who cannot be allowed to realise (as least not @ first!) they're getting into some sort of peculiar Indian cult :P

That comes later when the love-bombing Honeymoon Period works against any lingering logical doubts :wink:

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Post by fluffy bunny » 15 Feb 2007

zhuk wrote:^^Maybe because "Prajapita Brahma Kumaris" doesn't feel as Westernised-new-agey-touchy-feely
And now they are screwed because there are active Prajapita Brahma Kumaris [PBKs] ... let's face, they just don't care any more and if they wanted "Prajapita Brahma Kumaris" too, they would just steam roller over Virendra Dev Dixit's lot too. They have their palaces, their governmental connections, security without impunity (and we know what that means), more home comforts than 98% of India, plenty of overseas travel to make life interesting and escaping the flies and over sewers ... why should they care?

Integrity? (cough, cough cough ... !!!!) It is not about integrity, it is about keeping business coming in as usual. They are just testing out the extents of their limits right now to see how far they can go. So what does it matter if they swop a new lantern for an old one.
  • • Can I ask an honest question ... does anyone, BK or ex-BK actually believe that any of these service programmes are anything but fronts for the real business?

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Post by abrahma kumar » 15 Feb 2007

Can I ask an honest question ... does anyone, BK or ex-BK actually believe that any of these service programmes are anything but fronts for the real business?
Personally Ex-I, I happen to feel that the above quote from your post represents a question worthy of serious consideration. Nailing my own colours on the mast I will declare myself amongst those that do not know what the real business of the BKWSU is. I have a strong feeling that all of its outreach initiatives are indeed fronts but for what I am not exactly sure.

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Post by sparkal » 15 Feb 2007

Hey, come on, you don't let the right hand know what the left hand is doing if you want to retain control over many. Knowledge is power remember. Don't get me wrong, I would never accuse the BKs of control freakery.

Seriously though, the more money any body of people accrue, the more serious, intense and edgy it all gets. Things would be far more harmonious without money being involved at all. Being detached, of course, should bring a similar result.

Your question can only be answered by a few people realistically. Are the BKs a family business? (financial) I would think not, but it does not seem to be stopping them from inverting that into the fold, as with offering food to pictures of dead Gurus and so on.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 15 Feb 2007

Abrahma Kumar wrote:Personally Ex-I, I happen to feel that the above quote from your post represents a question worthy of serious consideration. Nailing my own colours on the mast I will declare myself amongst those that do not know what the real business of the BKWSU is. I have a strong feeling that all of its outreach initiatives are indeed fronts but for what I am not exactly sure.
And there you might well have the grist of it ...

has it all gone so far, and in so many directions, that nobody really knows any more? But I feel at heart there is still a desperate need to make new Brahmins. Second bests do not really count for much. The Murli is fairly hardcore about that still.

Family business? Who is the family? Who really is the inner circle? Does any one on the forum really know?

Mr Green came up with some interesting stuff, at his own great personal expense, that the trustees manage to throw around considerable weight despite their junior spiritual status ... and yet these folks, and their work, are unknown to the majority of BKs. Is it the same in India ... is there are inner circle who know what is going on any more?

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some mad buggers wall

Post by heshe » 01 Jul 2007

What I can discern is that the organisation has lost its way in a number of manners, the most obvious is the duty of care to its members.

I often feel that I am walking over the bones of so many good people who with the best intentions gave earnestly to the service of bringing about world change through self change. It has been my experience that the expectations either self imposed or by the group exceed any reality of what real transformation may be about.

People get tired and worn out from banging there head against some mad bugger's wall. Is this the brahma kumaris that we had worked so hard to support. The daughters only get a mention in the name of the organisation, are men just the movers of heavy objects:?: :roll: Is this a business or a place of contemplation:?:

In australia, i heard that they went through a lot of upheaveall many years ago, with a aim to changing the old order of things. :roll: Eventually, it would seem, most simply lay down their tools and turn away from the manipulation and control. There has to be accountability for the long term mental and physicial wellbeing of those who sign up to join.

The good people that i have meet, and lost, do not deserve to be thrown on the scrap heap of, "oh, its their karma". What seems to be the outcome for me is to take the religion out of god and the organisation from getting in the way of what constitutes spiritual existence for the individual.
VIVA LA REVOLUTION

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Post by fluffy bunny » 06 Jul 2007

Someone asked somewhere else, "is the BKWSU going to change its name?" and we have all criticised the vaugeness and disguises the BKs use to hide what they are up to.

I notice that Inner Space adverstises itself, and introductory events the BKWSU runs in its name, as being part of the business wing of the BKWSU, the "Brahma Kumaris Information Services". On leaflets the the BKWSU is not using its full name just Inner Space and BKIS. Perhaps this is part of a subtle sideshift?

I do think that "facilitators and teachers of meditation" is a little bit general and it is not exactly made clear that it is their practise and theirs alone.
About Inner Space

Inner Space in Covent Garden is managed and run by the Brahma Kumaris Information Services, which is associated to the Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University.

All courses are led by facilitators and teachers of meditation. The teachers give their time freely to share their experiences and insights on how to create inner change and deeper fulfilment.

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Post by mr green » 06 Jul 2007

The butchers shop has closed down now. Anyone fancy opening an inner space for the supreme demon?

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