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for ex-Brahma Kumaris, to discuss matters related to their experiences in BKWSU & after leaving.
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john
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Post by john » 11 Jan 2007

Mr Green wrote:hey prostitutes aren't neccesarily bad people ...
Of course not but the point being, what is given as advice as a fitting career/job for a BK ... ? But you knew that, so onwards.
on the subject of karma, it makes no sense if you look closely at it ... this is why Dadi discourages questions unless she has been given them before hand
I truly am not convinced that Dadi knows much at all. I've read some of the Q&A with Dadi, it all seems very staged, pretty much what you'd expect from a dictatorship.
the whole karmic account system just doesn't add up, how can it be possible to settle a karmic account without creating another? ... An action is an action after all and according to the BKs every action creates an effect or account
Without going too much into the quiqmire of karma. Action done in the right consciousness doesn't create karma.

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Post by arjun » 11 Jan 2007

From a karmic/spiritual point of view, I am not sure about this at all.

If we use that hoary old example, this would that individual Nazis that were murdering or torturing Jews were not responsible for their own actions just because they were "following orders"? Do we have no personal responsibility to say "no" if we are instructed to do something unethical?
Brother ex-l,

Since you have expressed a doubt, I would seek clarification from ShivBaba (through Baba Virendra Dev Dixit) and let you know if you are interested.

By the way, I remember hearing in one of the discussion CDs (No.184, Bairasia, 17.10.06) that sale of liquor by a member of the Brahmin family (i.e.BK/PBK) was prohibited. I think he was replying to the querry of a PBK (who might be a Hindu Pandit by profession) whether he should continue performing the rituals for a livelihood? If I am not wrong Baba said that he could continue to do so, while remembering Baba in his mind.
Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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Post by mr green » 11 Jan 2007

john, the bk version of karma contains the concept of
  • sukarma
    akarma
    and vikarma
in this ideal only akarma is action without consequence and they teach this applies only to the Golden Age/Silver Age.

Otherwise all action in sangam yug has consequence (wow, I still got it :lol: ).

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Post by john » 11 Jan 2007

Mr Green wrote:john, the BK version of karma contains the concept of; sukarma, akarma and vikarma. In this ideal only akarma is action without consequence and they teach this applies only to the Golden Age/Silver Age
That I believe is right on the button as per BK teachings.

I knew akarma was prevailant in the Golden Age, but did not know it was considered exclusive to the Golden Age.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 11 Jan 2007

arjun wrote:Since you have expressed a doubt, I would seek clarification from ShivBaba (through Baba Veerendra Dev Dixit) and let you know if you are interested.
I am not worthy of either your time or his and so I am happy for answers to emerge over time when I am ready.

The concept of Karma as it is, is a good tool to encourage individuals to good deeds over bad ones. After which good deed can be enjoyed for their own sakes. After which one can be deatched from the fruit entirely. I am not yet even at the first stage.

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Post by arjun » 12 Jan 2007

Sister Bansy wrote:My main concern is that in general we are sometimes not sure who to ask if our actions are wrong or right. As BapDada has an exclusive schedule and exclusive company, who can a BK ask if their choice of a lokik job is good for them. A Dadi ? A Senior ? Or your wife or husband or one of your three starving kids, or your mother who you are looking after suffering from asthma and cancer? You need this job, surely. Mind you, it could be said you're attached to those latter relationships, but who understands that degree of attachment. So who do you ask when confronted with these,
Om Shanti. I have a couple of Murli points where ShivBaba (through Brahma Baba) has said that if anyone does not understand any point he/she can ask Baba.

• "Understand each and every point nicely. If you don't understand any point then you can ask. Make a note that these points have to be asked to Baba. Main matter is regarding remembrance of Father. As for the rest of the doubts etc. they will be clarified." (Revised Sakar Murli dated 18.6.05 page 1 published by BKs)
"Father keeps explaining that if you do not understand anything then you can ask. Human beings do not know anything. ... Baba repeatedly tells children that if you have any doubt, which leads to lack of happiness, then report it. When Father sits and teaches, then one should also study, is not it? Happiness does not remain because you become body conscious. ... So Father explains - If you do not understand anything then ask Baba." (Revised Sakar Murli dated 20.07.05, page 1 & 4 published by BKs)

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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Post by arjun » 01 Feb 2007

Since you have expressed a doubt, I would seek clarification from ShivBaba (through Baba Veerendra Dev Dixit) and let you know if you are interested
Prashna: Brahman bachhey kaun-kaun say dhandhey kar saktey hain? Kya vay sharaab, cigarette aadi bechney ka kaam kar saktey hain?

Uttar: Sharaab ka dhanda karnaa nahee chaahiye . Murli may kaha hai - dhanda aadi bhi koi royal hota hai, koi ka chhi-chhi dhanda hota hai. Sharaab bechtey hain. Yah dhanda toh bahut kharaab hai. Sharaab sab vikaron ko khinchti hai. Kisi ko sharaabi banana yah dhanda accha nahee. Baap raay dengey yukti say yah dhanda change kar lo. Nahee toh oonch pad paa nahee sakengey. Mu 28-10-89
Murli may kahaa hai yahaan tum aatey ho manushya say devtaa ban-ney. Devtaeyen kabhi ashudh khan-paan, beedi aadi nahee peetey hain.
Jo cheez devi-devtaon ko Bhog lagaaya nahee jaataa hai, ham bech kaise saktey hain. Ham doosron ko bhi devi-devtaa banaanaa chaahtey hain.


Prashna: Baba nay kaha hai ki yadi koi sainik apney afsar ke aadesh par kisi ko goli maarta hai toh uska paap nahee banega. Kya yah sahee hai?

Uttar: Murli may kahaa hai "ladaai kay maidaan may toh khushi say jaanaa hai. Karma toh karnaa hee hai. Goli marnaa karma hai naa. Desh kay bachaav kay liye sab kuch karnaa padtaa hai.- Murli 22-8-75
2-Kisi ko dukh na dena hai. Ladaai waley dukh dete hain na. Parantu yah toh service kertey hain. Agar dushmaon ko maarey hee nahee toh sab chadhaai kar aa javengey.- Murli 22-8-75
3-Samjho tum ko military may bhaashan krnaa padtaa hai. Toh aisa nahee samjhaanaa hai ki maarnaa nahee hai. Maro beshak, kyunki duty hai. Shiv baba ki Yaad may rahkar service karo toh swarg may chaley jaayengey. - Murli 9-4-87
4-Police waley likhtey hain, Baba aaj kisi ko mara. Baba kahdetey hain bhal apni duty bajaao. Nahee toh chor sach nehi batlayega. Baap kay paas military wale aate hain, unko samjhaatey thay ladnaa toh padegaa hee. Nahee toh shahar kee rakshaa kaun karengey. Tum ko yah service karnee hee hai. Parantu jab maro toh ShivBaba ko Yaad karo ... sharir nirvaah arth kaam toh karnaa hee hai. ... Bap kahtey hain nehi toh roti nahee milegi. Bhaarat kee sambhaal kaun karegaa. ShivBaba ko Yaad kar maaraa to yah service kee. Ismay koi paap nahee. Har ek ko apney shahar ki sambhaal karnee hee hai. Nahee toh India ko sab kha jaaye. mu 18-4-76


Prashna: Jaisey Germany ke sainikon nay laakhon yahoodiyon ko Hitler ke kahney par maut ke ghaat utaar diya toh kya un sainikon ka koi paap nahee banega? Aur kya aisey dictator (tanashah) ke adheen kaam karney kaa kaaran unkay burey karma nahee hain?

Uttar: Sena ka sipaahi senaanayak ki baat man-ney kay liye baadhya hai. Nahee toh usay maar diyaa jaayega. Lekin agar senapati galat decision leta hai to uskay ooper paap chadhega.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Question: Which are the occupations that the Brahmin children can do? Can they sell liquor, cigarettes etc.?
Ans: One should not do the business of liquor. It has been said in the Murli – “The occupations etc. are also sometimes royal and the occupations of some are dirty. They sell liquor. This occupation is very bad. Liquor attracts all vices. It is not good to make someone a drunkard. The Father would advice that you should change this occupation tactfully. Otherwise, one would not be able to achieve a high post.” – Murli dated 28.10.89
It has been said in the Murli that here you come to get transformed from human beings to deities. Deities never consume impure food, beedi (tobacco) etc. How can we sell the things that are not offered to the deities? We want to make others also deities.


Question: Baba has said that if any soldier shoots at someone on the orders of his Officer, then he would not accrue any sin. Is it correct?
Ans: It has been said in the Murli that “One must go to the battlefield happily. One must perform one’s duty. Shooting is a duty, isn’t it? One has to do everything to save one’s nation.” – Murli dated 22.8.75.
2. “One must not cause sorrows to anyone. The fighters (i.e. soldiers) cause sorrows, don’t they? But they perform their duty. If they do not kill the enemies, then everyone would lay siege and enter.” – Murli dated.22.8.75.
3. “Suppose you have to deliver lectures in the military. Then do not explain that one must not kill. You may of course kill because it is your duty. If you remain in ShivBaba’s remembrance and do service then you would go to heaven.” Murli dated 9.4.87.
4. “Children belonging to the Police Department write – Baba, today I beat someone. Baba would say – you may perform your duty. Otherwise the thief would not tell the truth. Military people come to Baba. It used to be explained to them that they would certainly have to fight. Otherwise who would defend the city? You have to do this service. But when you kill, remember ShivBaba ... One has to perform actions for one’s livelihood, isn’t it? ... The Father says – Otherwise you would not get roti (i.e. food). Who would take care of India? If you kill (the enemy etc.) while being in remembrance then it is like doing service. One would not accrue any sin in it. Everyone has to definitely defend his city. Otherwise everyone would devour India.” – Murli dated 18.04.76.


Question: For example, the soldiers of Germany killed lakhs of Jews on the orders of Hitler. So will those soldiers accrue any sin? And are their sins not the reason for having to work under such a dictator?
Ans: A soldier of an Army is duty-bound to obey the orders of the Commander. Otherwise he would get killed. But if the Commander takes a wrong decision, then its sin would accrue to him.

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Post by bansy » 01 Feb 2007

Ans: It has been said in the Murli that “One must go to the battlefield happily. One must perform one’s duty. Shooting is a duty, isn’t it? One has to do everything to save one’s nation.” – Murli dated 22.8.75.
2. “One must not cause sorrows to anyone. The fighters (i.e. soldiers) cause sorrows, don’t they? But they perform their duty. If they do not kill the enemies, then everyone would lay siege and enter.” – Murli dated.22.8.75.
3. “Suppose you have to deliver lectures in the military. Then do not explain that one must not kill. You may of course kill because it is your duty. If you remain in ShivBaba’s remembrance and do service then you would go to heaven.” Murli dated 9.4.87
.
Dear Arjunbhai,

The last post from ShivBaba was quite powerful. It is as if it saying it is okay to kill doing your duty because ShivBaba allows this duty to be done. If I am holding a gun up in my hand, the other party turns around and raises his rifle, as long as I think of ShivBaba at this critical point in time, then I can shoot that other person before he shoots me. However, would it not also be honorable to die to meet ShivBaba, i.e. should I be remembering ShivBaba at the point of killing someone or be remembering ShivBaba at the point of my own death, both of which is happening within a split second ? Should I just fail to shoot him or miss him instead, then that means I failed in my duty, but at the same time I have just been shot and killed. It's a fine line.

Regards
Bansy

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Post by john » 01 Feb 2007

It also brings it back to what is correct Rememberance.

If Shiva is Remembered as a point of light in Paramdham is there any sin accrued?
Is there one correct form of rememberance which will not accrue sin and the others will?

BKs in the Army may think they are not accruing sins by killing or police beatings (whatever happened to double non violence!?!), but if they are not remembering correctly will they be accruing sin?

Could you clarify this please ArjunBhai?

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Post by fluffy bunny » 01 Feb 2007

bansy wrote:If I am holding a gun up in my hand, the other party turns around and raises his rifle, as long as I think of ShivBaba at this critical point in time, then I can shoot that other person before he shoots me.
  • It is the same as the American Christian Fundimentalists saying, "praise the Lord and pass the bullets".

    Its is the same as the Islamic Mujahideen detonating a suicide bomb in the name of Allah
It is surprising and reveals again, in my opinion, the thread of a fairly virulent Indian nationalism and other characteristics that pervades Lekhraj Kirpalani's and the BKWSU teachings.

The policeman torturing the alleged thief is equally surprising. (What fs they beat the wrong person, would that be their karma?) You can see where the BKs get the justification to beat PBKs up. They have taken the concept of "Duty" upon themslves. "As center-in-charge, it is my duty to instruction my brothers to beat up PBKs ... Madhuban told me to ... no karma thank you". As long as the BKs are "Remembering God" it is OK. No karma. "Only following orders", as the Nazis said. Of course, if no one "followed orders", there would be no wars ...

As John points out, the "$64,000 Dollar Question", is who and what is being remembered and to what degree. Do the Christian, Islam, Nazi and BK acrue karma because they do not have true rememberance? Is the PBK destined to have 100% true rememberance at all moments? Do we feel really secure with an army that has to take its time to keep a daily chart for Baba and check it quality of rememberance before it pulls the trigger ... all rhetorical qestions, so no answers necessary.

To be honest, I think to focus in on the details is to miss what is going on here. What is going on all part of the constant shapeshifting that Freefall highlighted in another thread recently during which the BKs or its guiding spirits will say anything to keep as many people as possible hooked and donating to it.

I also feel that it exhibits a rather ugly and undevelop side of Lekhraj Kirpalani's personality which was establishmentarian, Indian nationalist and proud of it. Something I saw in a number of the Seniors too. I find this hard to square with an Incorporeal God. Of course, perhaps the "Father of Humanity" had a better understanding of human nature than I do, so keep beating the police suspects ... just remember god and keep a daily chart for the sisters to check and bullet those pesky Mohammedans in Kasmir.

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Post by john » 01 Feb 2007

ex-l has expressed much of what I've been thinking.

The ONLY defence I think you can give to this is when your own country is under attack from aggressors. It's a funny thing when sex is considered worse than killing ...

Hang on a minute if killing is OK whilst remembering ShivBaba, then can it be concluded that sex is OK whilst remembering ShivBaba and any sin for that matter?

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Post by bansy » 01 Feb 2007

ex-l, John, I do think this point has a deeper meaning. The question posed was :
Baba has said that if any soldier shoots at someone on the orders of his Officer, then he would not accrue any sin. Is it correct?
Hence the soldier is not to blame of the consequence, whether he kills or gets killed, but his Officer is to blame. Because his Officer has ordered him to do so, the soldier is innocent. And who is the Officer's Officer's Officer etc ? Eventually, it goes back to the top of the chain, and that could be ShivBaba ... except however, if it should that any commanding officer on that chain is not undergoing a BK or PBK path, that chain is broken and it means ShivBaba is not involved in this drama incident. So ultimately the soldier is therefore obeying a decision from a non BK. So the soldier, as a BK, should he have better judgement to make the decision for himself as a BK and World Server and World Benefactor, or is simply serving a degraded commanding officer ? When the enemy's gun is pointing at him ...

But anyway, why would a BK want to be a soldier, or are there really any BK soldiers ? (soldier meaning real battlefield with guns and bullets, not the spiritual battlefield).

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Post by john » 01 Feb 2007

ex-l, John, I do think this point has a deeper meaning. The question posed was :Baba has said that if any soldier shoots at someone on the orders of his Officer, then he would not accrue any sin. Is it correct?
Yes, I think it has a deeper meaning, but not the one you are getting at, though that may be some part in it.

I think the topic needs to be explored further for clarification. I have seen a Murli point that says any action done in ShivBaba's rememberance does not accrue sin.

This idea is also common in eastern religions like Hinduism. I believe Hare Krishna devotees say it, but the rememberance being of Krishna.

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Post by arjun » 02 Feb 2007

Dear all,

Based on the Q&A quoted above I feel that the permission to kill (in Baba's remembrance) is only when a soldier is ordered by his officer to kill the enemy. Even in case of beating a criminal by a (BK or PBK) policeman, it should be only to the extent that the rules of that department allow to extract the truth. Now a days newspapers and news channels keep giving news about custodial deaths of innocent people (who haven't even been convicted by the Courts). So, beating of a thief (or suspected thief) should be only to the level that is prescribed in the manuals of the respective departments. I have another Murli point where ShivBaba (through Brahma Baba) has said that the BKs in police department should first try to extract the truth with love. If love does not work, then one must make use of the method of beatings/scoldings.
Sister Bansy wrote:But anyway, why would a BK want to be a soldier, or are there really any BK soldiers ? (soldier meaning real battlefield with guns and bullets, not the spiritual battlefield).
What if someone becomes a BK/PBK after being appointed as a soldier and cannot leave the Army until the bond period is over. In that case he has to definitely follow the orders of his superiors, including the orders to kill the enemy.
John wrote:Hang on a minute if killing is OK whilst remembering ShivBaba, then can it be concluded that sex is OK whilst remembering ShivBaba and any sin for that matter?
I don't know whether this can be done or not, but I have definitely seen a Murli point where Baba has spoken about the BK/PBK mothers in bondages, who have to suffer forced sex. I think Baba has said that they should remember Baba at that time, then the sin would not accrue to them. But if one indulges in sex just for pleasure, under the pretext that anything could be done in remembrance of God Shiv, then I don't think that would be allowed by Baba. Moreover, have we achieved such a hundred percent soul conscious stage where indulging in sex would not lead to discharge of spiritual and physical power?

I am writing the above line as a BK/PBK. So Ex-BKs please excuse me. They might have a different opinion from me. However, I would seek Baba's answer on this important matter.
ex-l wrote: It is the same as the American Christian Fundimentalists saying, "praise the Lord and pass the bullets". Its is the same as the Islamic Mujahideen detonating a suicide bomb in the name of Allah.
I think we cannot equate a soldier killing an enemy under the orders of his Officer or out of patriotism with the suicide bombers/terrorists. The objective and result of the actions in both cases is vastly different. In the former case the killer is defending his homeland or obeying the orders of his Officer, but in the latter case a person is adopting violence on his own to kill enemies/innocent people in the name of God/religion. This may be a subject of debate. But I think most people would agree.
ex-l wrote:Is the PBK destined to have 100% true rememberance at all moments?
Definitely not, at least under the present circumstances. It may be possible that BKs/PBKs may achieve that stage in the end.
John wrote:BKs in the Army may think they are not accruing sins by killing or police beatings (whatever happened to double non violence!?!), but if they are not remembering correctly will they be accruing sin?
I would request Baba for an answer in this regard and come back to you.

Regards,
On Godly service,
Arjun

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Post by abrahma kumar » 02 Feb 2007

I think we cannot equate a soldier killing an enemy under the orders of his Officer or out of patriotism with the suicide bombers/terrorists. The objective and result of the actions in both cases is vastly different. In the former case the killer is defending his homeland or obeying the orders of his Officer, but in the latter case a person is adopting violence on his own to kill enemies/innocent people in the name of God/religion. This may be a subject of debate. But I think most people would agree.
Cannot we equate the 2 at all? While I see the nuances of both arguments could it be said that there is a very fundamental similarity, in that in both instances the soul doing the killing IS convinced (fair assumption?) that the action was necessary. Could this feeling of 'appropriateness of action' give the killer's (supposing that each is acting under free will of course) in both situation's a degree of similarity? I am only responding to that aspect of the thread at the moment. In the case of Gyan, the killer's actions are seemingly justified via the remembrance. In the case of the terrorist the idea is postulated that non-combatants are fair game in some situations because they are part and parcel of the oppressor's system? And would I be foolish to introduce the concept of 'drama being accurate' into the mix?

I know nothing.

Nice thread

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