Rape motive suspected in BK killing - RIP BK Dawn Griggs

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john morgan
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Re: Rape motive suspected in BK killing - RIP BK Dawn Griggs

Post by john morgan » 22 May 2008

bkti-pit wrote:I do believe in the Law of Karma but do not agree with the simplistic views that are often put forward: if you are wealthy in this life it is a good karma from a previous birth, if you get your but kicked it is because you kicked someone's but in the past. I think it is a bit more complex and nuanced than that.
I think that what you say is true. It is more sophisticated. The touchstone that any action performed with the influence of vice is harmful and that any action performed with the influence of virtue is good can be very useful for the person who wishes to progress. Until virtue is well established tinges of vice exist in the karmic seeds that we sow, constant attention to ones thought creation, it being the basis of attitudes and action also seems to help. As for everything that happens to us being karma from the past it just cannot be so because everyone is continually sowing fresh karmic seeds.

Whilst God is a person in the BK world the devil is not though forces of darkness do exist. The cloak of invisibility that seems to envelop Brahmins seems to be an automatic aspect of an umbrella of protection, the proximity to God bit requires individual effort.

I cannot see the seeds of karma nor can I see karma itself. I can see what could be karmic effects and I can see first hand what I understand to be the sowing of karma as I do it, I can also see what seems to be karma free. That methods exist for the removal of negative karma indicate the prescence of someone(s) who can see more than me, perhaps every nuance of karma is known or visible to them. The possibility of the existence of karma explains much. Some things are imponderables.

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Re: Rape motive suspected in BK killing - RIP BK Dawn Griggs

Post by fluffy bunny » 04 Jun 2008

bkti-pit wrote:I agree that it is a common belief amongst BKs that nothing will happen to them because they are under God's protection and this is often reinforced in classes by Seniors or Sisters-in-charge, e.g. that at the end when the scenes of Destruction will come we will be safe in Madhuban or in the Subtle Regions, that sorts of things.
I offer another example of God's protection of BK waning, so pay for that health/life insurance policy now ... it may be your karma to hurt but at least have the hospital fees and loss of earnings paid.
The Tribune wrote:Friday, December 14, 2007, Chandigarh, India

ABOHAR INJURED, PUNJAB: Four persons, including Brahmakumari Rani Behan, in charge of the Suratgarh RajYoga Centre, sustained injuries when the jeep in which they were travelling reportedly collided with an Army vehicle on Wednesday night on the outskirts of Suratgarh in Sriganganagar region, sources said.
worldpeace wrote:Strange that I never came across this piece of news. It's really a sad incident. But there are countless other crimes against women and the poor that happen everyday here. By the way, ex-I, from where do you track the news on Dawn Griggs?
Yes, it is hard to find genuine news article underneath all the "BKs meet some famous Person" or "BKs have a service programme" type PR articles.

What can I say ... try adding some random word or concept in the search like "murder" or a someone name with "Brahma Kumaris" and make sure to try all the different options, e.g. Brahma Kumari, Brahmakumari, Brahmkumari, Brahma-Kumaris etc. If using a search engine, try digging deeper than just the first few pages. Start at the end.

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Re: Rape motive suspected in BK killing - RIP BK Dawn Griggs

Post by arjun » 03 Aug 2008

Om Shanti. Today I found that the latest news about the conviction of two cab drivers accused of raping and murdering the Australian BK by a Court was published on the front page of the Times of India newspaper. The sentence is to be pronounced on Monday. When I searched for the news on its website, I found the following link:

Cabbies convicted for Aussie's killing - 3 Aug 2008

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arjun
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Re: Rape motive suspected in BK killing - RIP BK Dawn Griggs

Post by arjun » 12 Aug 2008

Om Shanti. The two cabbies accused of raping and mudering BK Dawn Griggs have been sentenced to death by an Indian Court. Here is the link giving more details:

Delhi: 2 get death for Oz woman murder

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Re: Rape motive suspected in BK killing - RIP BK Dawn Griggs

Post by fluffy bunny » 12 Aug 2008

This is all relevant to the BKWSU who I guessing have forgotten it all, although Dawn Grigg's lokik son Adam Spinner and her family is still in dread ... the men (who cannot afford their own lawyer but have a free one given by the court) have lodged an appeal. I am just glad Dawn died intestate (without a Will) or someone had the good sense to destroy any one that was made out to the BKWSU ... as they have the habit of asking their followers to do so.

Its worth remembering the god of the BKs promise of "mother cat" protection that, "no one will touch a hair on your head" and the pithy rememberance service in which it was claimed that Baba had taken her away and she did not suffer ... despite the pathologist reporting that her palms were embedded with thorns and the soles of her feet were cut, indicating she put up strong resistance.

The criminals attempted to disfigure her face so badly that she could not be recognised gouging out her eye with a screw driver and beat her head with a rock. Where was her god when she cried out for him? Sitting on a cloud in the Subtle Regions smiling, "... its your karma"?

Just out of interest, who is for and who is against the death sentence and what is the a Brahmin point of view?
"Jyotish Prasad and Ashish Kumar, for the offence of brutal murder of the Australian tourist, you be hanged till death," Additional Sessions Judge Vinod Kumar said, pronouncing the sentence in a packed courtroom.

The court also imposed a fine of Rs 3,000 each on the two convicts who were held guilty of gangrape, robbery, destruction of evidence and common intention. The court had convicted the two accused on August two.

NEW Delhi: A city court on Monday awarded the death penalty to two cab drivers convicted for gangraping and murdering a 59-year-old Australian tourist four years ago. ASJ Vinod Kumar said: "The victim was of such an age that she should have been seen as a motherly figure. Committing rape of an old lady shows a mind which is more depraved than Dhananjoy Chatterjee's.
bk_dawngriggs.jpg
bk_dawngriggs.jpg (26.45 KiB) Viewed 2293 times
Dhananjoy Chatterjee was a security guard who was executed by hanging for the rape and murder of 14-year-old Hetal Parekh on March 5, 1990 in Bhowanipur. Chatterjee's execution was the first hanging at Alipore prison since 1993 and the first execution in India since 1995.

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Re: Rape motive suspected in BK killing - RIP BK Dawn Griggs

Post by arjun » 12 Aug 2008

ex-l wrote:Just out of interest, who is for and who is against the death sentence and what is the a Brahmin point of view?
Whatever the BK/PBK philosophy may say, but I am very much for the death sentence, at least as a deterrent to many other such criminals, especially in India, who take the Indian Judiciary for granted. In fact, like the Arab countries, it should be a public hanging.

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Re: Rape motive suspected in BK killing - RIP BK Dawn Griggs

Post by tom » 12 Aug 2008

To reply in a nutshell :

I don't care any more what the BK point of view is. BK Seniors only mourn and shed tears for their own Sisters. Even when they die in a very old age with a very normal death, after years long dementia and months long coma like by Dadi Kumarka, they consider her death as "unexpected", "shocking", "early" and make Yoga months long for her soul.

I am sure none of them, including Dadi Janki is remembering or praying for BK Dawn Grigg's soul. Even the third day she was forgotten, even message from "Baba" said, what happened to her was her karma. I was there at that time. In my heart, I will always remember what was done to her by other human beings and wish her peace wherever her soul is.

Throughout history, death sentences have never been discouraging for criminals. Even now. Death sentence can be for some families of the victims, according to their feelings, a minimal consolation. However, for other families it is not.

No punishment or torture given to the criminals can bring the victim back or make whatever is done undone.

A state should never kill as punishment.

In fact, there is not any punishment in the world existing for such a crime.

Life long sentence in a prison or in a hospital for mental diseases could give the criminals possibility to think over and understand what they did.

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Re: Rape motive suspected in BK killing - RIP BK Dawn Griggs

Post by bansy » 12 Aug 2008

Just out of interest, who is for and who is against the death sentence and what is the a Brahmin point of view?
The BKWSU should consider take on these 2 prisoners and make them into eventual Dadas. Otherwise they will spend their time as ghosts haunting those who have personally met BK Giggs, given such deep "karma".

This is the burden of the BKWSU. Blood on hands cannot be wiped out with further blood, it needs to be cleaned with more than just Dettol.

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Post by alladin » 12 Aug 2008

I have been reading this topic and I felt sick and speechless.

I think that torture, in rape cases, would be more appropriate than death sentence. It possibly is the most odious crime one can think of. A good way to 'feel the pulse' of a very diseased world and becoming increasingly common in the west. Cities are unsafe for women. Rapists retaliate on victims who had the courage to report the crime. Teenagers' favourite hobbies seem to be gang rapes as well as making amateur porno video. Rapes of elderly ladies are not uncommon. But its the tip of an iceberg and the effect, the natural result of "modern society", wherever we look, women are in big trouble.

Westerners become filled with indignation when they hear about how in the third world women are burnt alive and disfigured, lapidated, circumcised and given away through arranged marriages, forced when still children into prostitution, kidnapped and murdered to entertain perverted porn movie addicts, deprived from education and human rights, forced to work like beasts of burden. But in rich industrialized countries, due to economic recession, working has become inevitable, motherhood has become a luxury one cannot afford, and the woman as an object, that we thought had become an antique item in the sixties, is even now a reality; since silicon breasts and the rest seems to be the only model advertised and imposed on us.

Sex and violence are omnipresent in the movies and the most common form of entertainment in the media and in the streets. One would easily suspect that in the case of Dawn's rape, the victim being a foreigner, a culprit had to be found, certitude or not, and sentenced to an with an exemplary punishment. What about the millions of cases of domestic violence and rapes that go unpunished?

I don't see the BKs campaigning about any of these issues. They think they do enough by promoting soul-consciousness and a pure, secluded lifestyle and they offer courses such as "Living values" which should take care of "ethics".

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Post by fluffy bunny » 13 Aug 2008

They could start another trust in her name. They have the Janki Trust and other memorials ... why not the Dawn Griggs Trust for Women Victims of Male Violence? If it was not for believing in what the BKs told her, she would not have been there and then.
alladin wrote:I don't see the BKs campaigning about any of these issues. They think they do enough by promoting soul-consciousness and a pure, secluded lifestyle and they offer courses such as "Living values" which should take care of "ethics".
I think you make a couple of very good points. Firstly, what is the BKWSU really doing for women and, second, the unspoken nature of crimes against women in India.

Here is one of their own, a Brahma Kumari woman, raped and murdered. Where is the BKWSU's feminist voice?

Would it not be perfect timing to start a service programme about violence against women? Indian women. Will the 'God Baba' just tell them ... "its their karma" ... "have more Yoga". Is it "too negative" (meaning too real and pragmatic)? Or is it just not the sort of thing the brothers than run the BKWSU want to get involved with.

I think that the combined influence of the internet and the capitalist greed of the pornography industry are filling weak minds full of perverted desires. They now reach across all cultural, economic and international borders into developing nations, selling the myth that all caucasian women are available indecent sluts to males who consider that any woman that has or enjoys sex is worthless ... hence disposable like a sick dog. Another wonderful by-product of 'the American Dream', as Nathan Abrams points out in The Jewish Quarterly.

I do not see the point in keeping them alive. Even less do I see why society should pay to keep them alive. Perhaps IF laws were changed so that the family or supporters of criminals had to pay full price for their incarceration for life, then society would care more and pay more attention. I think Arjun is right, even though it might make mistakes, some kind of absolute deterrent has to exist. And, I think the thought of the Brahma Kumaris redeeming these souls is equally inspired. What a punishment ...

There was one reformed murderer the BKs used to parade, Pancham Singh Chauhan. I am not sure what the families of his victims felt. The story was he went back to each of them to ask forgiveness. Jayaprakash Narayan saved him from death, despite his surrender to the government and, on release, the government gave him 6.5 acres of land. Now around 70 years old and Father of two sons and two daughters, he "spent the booty he had looted for charitable purpose" with the BKWSU.
Singh spoke not wrote:Dacoits operating in jungles have some values. Normally they are god fearing and respectful to women. Most of them are victims of society and do not harm the poor. But the politicians are greater dacoits and do not have that morality.

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Re: Rape motive suspected in BK killing - RIP BK Dawn Griggs

Post by bkti-pit » 13 Aug 2008

Singh spoke not wrote:But the politicians are greater dacoits and do not have that morality.
I am sure this is why the BKWSU puts so much effort in trying to "serve" the politicians ...

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Re: Rape motive suspected in BK killing - RIP BK Dawn Griggs

Post by arjun » 13 Aug 2008

aladin wrote:Rapists retaliate on victims who had the courage to report the crime.
The Times of India newspaper carried a survey of rape victims on Monday (11th August'08) which said,
  • "Many women feared the offender might return ... nearly 63% of the women said that they could not shout when attacked ... Many had difficulty explaining why they could not shout or scream and described as if their voice had frozen at that time although they could feel and inner resistance against the offender ... The truth is that not being able to scream during a threatening event happens with many victims."
ex-l wrote:There was one reformed murderer the BKs used to parade, Pancham Singh Chauhan. I am not sure what the families of his victims felt. The story was he went back to each of them to ask forgiveness.
I remember he visited our BK center to narrate his experiences. I cannot recollect what he said because that was almost two decades ago, but I remember him saying that he used to worship a devi by lighting a lamp using one kg pure ghee everyday. He used to pray that his every shot should not miss the target and that he should not be hit by any bullet. He also described how BK sisters changed his life at the jail after which he was sent to an open jail and then freed by Jaiprakash Narayan along with many other reformed prisoners.

He also said that his daughter became a Brahmakumari and after he became free he got a center opened in his village/area where her daughter served as a surrendered teacher. I also recollect his line that you have quoted, "Dacoits operating in jungles have some values." They used to help the poor people with the money that they looted from the rich people. They also used to respect the dignity of women.
tom wrote:No punishment or torture given to the criminals can bring the victim back or make whatever is done undone. A state should never kill as punishment. In fact, there is not any punishment in the world existing for such a crime. Life long sentence in a prison or in a hospital for mental diseases could give the criminals possibility to think over and understand what they did.
I agree that the above should be the ideal. If I had replied as a BK/PBK, I would have written the same. But as an individual I support death sentence. This debate is same as the debate on traffic rules/red lights. Some say that people would be more disciplined if there are no traffic rules. But when there are innumerable offenders even when the rules exist one can imagine what would happen if there are no rules at all.

Even ShivBaba warns Brahmins of dharmaraj's punishments if they do not follow the Shrimat.

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Re: Rape motive suspected in BK killing - RIP BK Dawn Griggs

Post by fluffy bunny » 13 Aug 2008

Why should the rest of society pay to keep a human being that is worse than useless but actually sociopathic or psychopathic? It is not as if human is particularly short in numbers right now. Especially in countries like India where even good, intelligent kids don't get fed. Sometimes I think we have swung too far towards liberalism (or libertarianism) in the West and the developing nations are following us without really questioning the experiment. At the very least, allow those to die that want to die.

In Japan, they recent hanged a multiple child-sex abuser, necrophiliac cannibal, Tsutomu Miyazaki. Even despite the depravity of his crimes the liberal governments are putting pressure on Japanese government to put aside the death sentance. Another murder and cannibal Issei Sagawa was let free and made into a celebrity! French psychologists had found him legally insane and unfit to stand trial. He was deported back to Japan where he was put in a mental institution. Unfortunately, the deportation order did not specify how long Sagawa must remain in the institution and Japanese authorities were refused the necessary paperwork from French justice officials. Fifteen months later, Sagawa checked himself out, has been a free ever since and made a career out of his admitted crime.

My response would be, "OK, you want to keep them alive ... you take them home and look after them then". I think this killing of a 59 year old lady is on a par.

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Re: Rape motive suspected in BK killing - RIP BK Dawn Griggs

Post by bansy » 13 Aug 2008

What would BK Giggs want for these 2 persons? I think she would like them to be BKs. Otherwise her death has no meaning for her, even if it has no much meaning for everyone else.

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Re: Rape motive suspected in BK killing - RIP BK Dawn Griggs

Post by fluffy bunny » 13 Aug 2008

bansy wrote:What would BK Giggs want for these 2 persons?
Its an interesting question and a fair answer. If we believe in a spirit life, the 'hearafter' or reincarnation, Dawn might have had a better view of what the BKWSU is really all about; in the bigger picture of things. I would say it would be good if BKs were to go in to see the killers, and would respect them for it ... if only to tell them who Dawn was and why she was going to India.

Capital punishment is a difficult issue. One argument I have heard is that in the West, and Post-Modern world, individuals are influenced by secular Christianity to believe that we only have one life before Judgement, therefore life is sacred and any chance for redemption must be allowed. Likewise from the Materialist's point of view (whether scientific or Marxist/Maoist etc where the soul is denied), we only have one life and there is no Judgement.

This alters if you take the Christian Spiritualist, Hindu/Buddhist point of view (amongst others) that we have many lives, many worlds and a long time to work our karma out. Would this allow a more enlightened decision to be made? Does causing suffering to criminal remove any of their karma ... if not, then why not just let them all free and let karma deal with it?

Of course, our governments regularly make decisions on our behalf to send men to their death and kill people for capital gains (money, oil, power) ... so what is the difference in that?

Griggs was survived by her 85-year-old mother and 30-year-old son. Since his mother's death, Adam Spinner has been in constant contact with Indian investigators in a bid to ensure those responsible for the brutal attack were brought to justice.

India's Supreme Court stipulates that the death penalty be used only in the "rarest of rare cases."

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