Democracy

for discussing science, relationships, religion or non-BK spirituality.
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Post by fluffy bunny » 14 Jan 2008

Andrey, you are headed off topic as usual ... just out of interest though, what happened when Shewram and the others left the Yagya, presumably due to some disagreement, did Shiva go with him or did he jump into Lekhraj Kirpalani? So what years are you talking about as a "sample of heaven"? Who was the controller? Radhe, Lekhraj Kirpalani, the committee or Shewakram?

Let's look at child prostitution then ... is it getting better or worse? In most developed, democratic nations it is criminalised and reduced to almost nothing. It used to be a way of life for the poor and still is in poor totalitarian states.

I think you have been reading too much Jagdish Chander and ought to get out more and see reality. I accept the Eastern Block is not the best example though ... I still things things are getting better and this goes against the Gyani picture you have in your mind.
andrey wrote:The Karachi period used to be like a sample of Heaven, because there use to be unity ... They were happy with what they had found and did not need doing anything - even service - in the beginning.
That is only what you have read in a book and have been told to use to strengthen your faith. The two are incomparable.

Yes, within the Indian context, having someone pay for your living, feed you, not have to work, make decisions for you, entertain you, sing for you, play judge and jury for all your squabbles ... living off Sugar Daddy's money ... must feel a little like being a princess in heaven. But it was bought of wealth not truth or enlightenment. And when the money ran out?

But all we know is that we do not know the truth and the whole truth of what went on at that time. Who knows what it ws really like. So why was there a "Court of Indra"?

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Post by andrey » 14 Jan 2008

I know Murlis started from Karachi through Brahma baba 1951. Till that time the two mothers from the beginning used to be instrumental in Karachi. I don't know what has happened to Sevakram.

Many things indeed are getting better in the world, but just as you have the intoxication of belonging to an advanced nation where everything is almost perfect still not all places have become like heaven.

The point is that in the history also advancement (in many ways, science, technology, medicine, social law, government) has been gradual, however the real advancemet comes when some big step is taken, for eg. invention of electricity, all different revolutions and civil wars that has lead to end of slavery, humans rights etc. As if we walk, walk and we jump. And now in my opinion is this time in the whole course of history where we are to jump.

There is a story - called the story of the Ladder where a person stands in front of the Ladder amongst the people and screams along with them against the injustice, misery etc. and he starts climbing the Ladder and at each step he has to renounce one of his senses, so he stops hearing their voice, he stops seeing them, maybe he even sacrifices his heart at one step, I am not sure, it could be just my invention...and each step is more luxurious than the previous - marble, ivory, but when he reaches the top he turns around and asks "what is this grey mass down there." He had forgotten he used to belong there. I mean along with the advancement sоmеthing we lose at every step.

Even today if you go to take the 7 days course you don't have to worry for food and shelter.

"Court of Indra" is because there is rain of knowledge.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 14 Jan 2008

They had already left to go to Abu by 1951.

There is no specific evidence of "two BK sisters" acting as mediums, unless you are playing with words over "mothers".

No, there was a "Court (of Indra)" because there used to be problems, conflicts, issues to settle and the family would come forward to speak of them. Ditto Lekhraj Kirpalani's son Narian famously talked about when his Father and Om Radhe used to come away from the Yagya for a break at their family home.

I am sorry andrey, we are "intoxicated" when we read these Holy stories. That is their purpose. They are romantic stories and it was a complete artificial environment based on Lekhraj Kirpalani's wealth not the BK inner spirituality. Take away the wealth and what would you have had?

As in the topic on Christianity, my feeling is the wonder individuals are impressed with is 95% the effect of good old fashioned wealth. You cant take such a system and expect it to be applied to the entire world and work.

So many elements of existence go against the primary foundations of Gyan and yet we deny them.

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Post by andrey » 14 Jan 2008

it was a complete artificial environment based on Lekhraj Kirpalani's wealth not the BK inner spirituality.
But what you say is only just like a statement like this. For example, you cannot have any evidence for to state the statement above, because it looks very much like just an opinion, a point of view.

Generally, because we are used to corruption etc., one is likely to believe such stories more and one reaps more success if he relates them; but still also there are such things as romantics, miracles, heaven-like environment etc. If you see even the stories that are related, everyone relates about personal and other problems. The point is that there used to be one Indra there in whom everyone used to invest their faith, so any problem could be solved. Now there is quarrel, because no one is accepting the thing from the other one.

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Post by andrey » 14 Jan 2008

They had already left to go to Abu by 1951.
According to Dada Chandrahas they went to Mount Abu approximately 1955. In 58, after 3 years at Mount Abu, they had to move to another building he said.

In the part about Karachi - the forties - it is said the 14 years of bhatti were like being in heaven - so the least 1954.

Although the mothers could have played the part of trance, Brahma Baba were in the eyes of everyone, is not it? No one knew about Calcutta at that time, even Brahma Baba did not considered his partner as medium.

I was watching VCD 703 and i believe it was told that there used to be 21 years of Murlis through Brahma baba from 1948 to 1969, however I am not sure because i don't know well the numbers in Hindi. Someone who knows could confirm.

Also about the times in Karachi, if the Father is not present - the mother (from the beginning)could be influenced by the child - Krishna - Dada Lekhraj.

If it has been only a matter of wealth then it is also something the way wealth is used. Why someone else did not do something like this with his wealth and there are so many more rich persons, why don't they do something like this with their wealth.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 15 Jan 2008

The 14 years were 1936 to 1950. The date they moved is clearly dated elsewhere, not 1955.

But it is all malleable garbage ... the recent BKWSU version is a deliberate and conscious lie that covers up many elements of recorded facts, e.g. Lekhraj Kirpalani retiring in 1932 ...

We have the evidence of his wealthy from Justice Hardy, his advocate's biography. He was worth 3 Million at todays rates (approximately), and that is not rupees. Drop that much wealth into 1930s Karachi and, sure, you have a small heaven.
  • Could it all have happened without it? No way.
    Could it all continue without the dollars rolling in ... all those wonderful, attractive retreat centers for nice middle class people in the country rather than inner city service programmes? No way.
Wealth = no work and comforts for a few. I am pretty sure even Virendra Dev Dixit and the Advanced Knowledge would agree with me on this one.

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Post by andrey » 15 Jan 2008

But the bhatti starts when there is the closed environment and in Sindh they were in contact with the outside world. Where does it say the date they moved?

Because they had wealth did not make heaven. Many have wealth now and had then, even more and they did not make heaven. Just because they had wealth then, it does not mean we have to make wealth now so that we can go to heaven. However, there and then, now or everywhere; wealth should not be considered as something bad.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 15 Jan 2008

And turning God into a business? Is that good or bad?

Read the books andrey ... its all in there. Dada Vishwa Ratan's one. its also on the BKWSU website. When are you going to get it andrey ... ? Its all a big mudpie of made up and inaccurate bull.

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Post by andrey » 15 Jan 2008

Please, excuse me it is just due to my own malinfomation. I am learning now. I would like to have a clear idea.

Turning God into a business is none of our business. And if we see Dada Lekhraj he rather invested in this business and lost. Even if he knew one day this business will flourish he was not able to enjoy it and died as simple man. At least he was not egoist.

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democracy

Post by sparkal » 15 Jan 2008

So, where were we, oh yes, democracy. What would represent democracy within BKWSU?

Without Brahma and his money blah blah ... sure, but one person making that amount of money in a country with so much poverty does not sound very democratic to me. It may be that Brahma changed his attitude once retiring into a spiritual life style. :?:

And I get/got the impression that having such wealth is condoned by BKWSU. So where are we now within BKWSU? Is there democracy? What IS democracy? And is it being practised?

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Post by peterbindi » 15 Jan 2008

Andrey wrote, "However, there and then, now or everywhere; wealth should not be considered as something bad."

My wish is to stay simple and rich spiritually inside, having been in contact with rich people and observed them.

And you know, some of them are born to be millionaires. They really enjoy life and respect people, are honest, tolerant and do good; they are simply rich now.

And some of them are every day fighting with anger and greed for the future motivation. Some of them will have the millions out of fear because the do not trust the world. And some of them are very rich and poor inside.

Health and wealth must be in balance i think.

greetings peterbindi

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Post by fluffy bunny » 16 Jan 2008

As I have said before, according to the academics, the BKs are thought of in India as a rich, even middle-class religion. What are individual's personal experience of this? It also appears to me that BEING rich, is good luck and rewarded by privileges; and NOT to be rich is bad karma ... it lands you in with the cattle truck service.

It is easy a lot easier to have a "royal" attitude of self-importance when you have money or mega-donations behind you rather why you are living hand to mouth and afraid of the next bill that comes in. I think Indian's might also underestimate the amount of poverty in the West.

I think would be more useful to speak of actually individuals or reliable statistics, rather than just general, wishful theories.

Andrey, please do not misunderstand me. I am not trying to destroy your dream, but I am trying to encourage deep thinking and analysis.

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Post by sparkal » 16 Jan 2008

True democracy is MMWWaha ha - ing your religion up the portal by making constant posts of Murli quotes :lol:.

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tibet

Post by alladin » 25 Mar 2008

Sorry if I missed any existing posts about this topic (in that case, will someone please point them out to me?) : has there been any official position the BKWSO has announced or has taken about what's happening in Tibet ? Any comments made in class by SS?

After all, they get involved with politicians, inter-religious meetings, UN, etc ... so, unless they have some financial interest with China and keep quiet because of that, strongly or mildly, they should declare themselves!

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Re: Democracy

Post by fluffy bunny » 25 Mar 2008

I don't know about financial. They are working the Values Education stuff into China (Beijing Institute of Education and the China National Children's Centre etc) and have a couple of centers listed in Hong Kong where UN representative Christopher Drake, an Oxbridge educated ex-pat with high profile lawyer/stockbroking background (Deputy Managing Director of Sassoon Securities Limited etc) lived. At one point some BKs were making threatening noises towards this site because, apparently, Chris's Father is quote-unquote "a libel judge". So I would not expect them to weigh in about human rights issues.

One bit of news I have seen about Tibet, which many have not made it into the controlled mass media, is that the Chinese HAVE been caught and confirmed using soldiers dressed up as local Tibetans to cause trouble for the cameras. This is a tactic 'the Establishment' uses the world over and, incidentally, one the Chinese used a lot via WWII provoking the Japanese. I know of cases where the British, Israeli and American governments have all used it to discredit peace, environmental and political protest at many levels. I suspect they all do it. The model basically goes ... take a peaceful protest, send in some police or army guys dressed up as locals/protestors, have them cause trouble and create chaos, send in more official police/army to "fix the problem", use the controlled media to frighten the public and put out the message that "look, we are saving you from these people".

But I guess that you are experienced enough to know this.

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