A Tale of Two Paths: The Renunciate and the Householder

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jannisder
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A Tale of Two Paths: The Renunciate and the Householder

Post by jannisder » 18 Aug 2008

In the ancient teachings of India, two distinct paths were set forth: the path of the renunciate, and the path of the householder. There are many variations and sub-paths on each of these two great paths, but essentially, renunciates take vows to irrevocably cut themselves off from the world, and householders live in the world and evolve through working with it.

A Tale of Two Paths: The Renunciate and the Householder
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Re: A Tale of Two Paths: The Renunciate and the Householder

Post by fluffy bunny » 18 Aug 2008

Lorin Roche. Interesting individual and website. I enjoyed reading his insights on drugs where he recounts how powerfully negative he felt their influence to be, even just by sensing others auras.

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Re: A Tale of Two Paths: The Renunciate and the Householder

Post by arjun » 18 Aug 2008

An extract from the site quoted by sister Jannisder:
Lorin Roche wrote:The language of CELIBACY. Monks and nuns badmouth sex, endlessly, and tend to have the most poisonous attitudes imaginable towards sexuality. You really do not want to know what they think of sex. So if a monk or nun ever says one word about sex, it's usually a sign of trouble.

If they start emphasizing that others should be celibate, it means that they themselves have been oogling one of their followers, or are having sex with one of their disciples. Monks and nuns do have sex, they just feel guilty and disgusted by it, and they transfer this shame to whoever they are having sex with, and it is extremely toxic and damaging.
cannot the same analogy be applied to the souls in the Brahmin family (?) who badmouth Baba Virendra Dev Dixit accusing him of indulging in sex?

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Re: A Tale of Two Paths: The Renunciate and the Householder

Post by fluffy bunny » 18 Aug 2008

Some do badmouth, there is no doubt. It is petty and with that intent, like picking up a hot coal to throw at another, equally damaging to the one that throws it.

However, others want to discuss and understand it from a sincere, adult and Brahmin point of view and are attempting to point out the sense of doing so before in case it backfires again on the AIVV.

Both you and Lorin Roche make very fair points that should be studied at depth.

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Re: A Tale of Two Paths: The Renunciate and the Householder

Post by joel » 19 Aug 2008

Thanks for linking to this article, Jannisder. The following paragraph stands out to me.
Lorin Roche wrote:For a householder, practicing detachment is indistinguishable from practicing depression. The symptoms defining depression include: loss of interest in most or all activities, significant change in weight or appetite, sleep disturbance, slowed behavior, loss of energy, feelings of worthlessness, and suicidal thoughts.

Read the original teachings of Buddha, how he lived, and what he advocated. Read the teachings of Hindu gurus. Permeated throughout the whole field is an attitude that you really should detach, disconnect from everything you love. There is a whole set of attitudes that is being propagated as part and parcel of meditation and is really not - it's just stuff that Hindu or Buddhist monks do or think they should do.

Vegetarianism, disgust for the body, bitterness toward the material world, sitting cross-legged, obeying gurus, the idea of surrender, reincarnation, the idea that all wisdom comes from India, the idea that in the past there was a Golden Age, the idea that every time you have sex you degrate your spiritual life in a hideous way, all these ideas actually have nothing at all to do with meditation. They are mixed in as part of the "transmission of wisdom" from East to West.

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Re: A Tale of Two Paths: The Renunciate and the Householder

Post by arjun » 19 Aug 2008

ex-l wrote:However, others want to discuss and understand it from a sincere, adult and Brahmin point of view and are attempting to point out the sense of doing so before in case it backfires again on the AIVV.
I have no objection to such discussions provided it takes place in a cordial atmosphere. Most of the ex-PBKs who have tried to discuss this issue have adopted a path of confrontation. I have tried to give as much information as possible, but being a brother I cannot help much. We will have to wait until a genuine PBK sister/mother testifies.

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Re: A Tale of Two Paths: The Renunciate and the Householder

Post by jannisder » 19 Aug 2008

Cultivating Disgust for Women

Here is an excerpt from a talk the Dalai Lama gave at UCLA in June, 1997:
Most attachment to women comes from
the belief that womens bodies are pure.
But in actuality there is no purity
in a woman's body at all.

Her mouth is a vessel of impurity,
with putrid saliva and gunk between her teeth;
Her nose is a pot of snot, phlegm and mucous,
and her eyes contain eye-slime and tears.

Her torso is a container of excrement,
holding urine, the lungs, liver and such.
The confused do not see that a woman is such;
thus, they lust after her body.

Like unknowing persons, who have become attached
to an ornamented vessel filled with filth,
Unknowing and worldly beings
are attached to women.
Cultivating Disgust for Women - What about man!!! How disgusting are they???

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Re: A Tale of Two Paths: The Renunciate and the Householder

Post by joel » 19 Aug 2008

You correctly identify the mysogynist sentiment, however the words are those of Nagarjuna, not the Dalai Lama. Nagarjuna (c. 150 - 250 CE) was a founder of the renuciate Buddhism tradition of which the Dalai Lama heads a particular branch.

Note that Nagarjuna doesn't attempt to equate children with nauseating filth. They are prolific producers of filth, messy inside, yet we love them dearly. It is with the attraction of women that Nagarjuna is concerned about his renunciate male followers, as their first steps away from the tradition would likely be towards women.

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Re: A Tale of Two Paths: The Renunciate and the Householder

Post by jannisder » 20 Aug 2008

Well, who ever it was, I don't care. It still is used to get man into celibacy.

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Re: A Tale of Two Paths: The Renunciate and the Householder

Post by fluffy bunny » 20 Aug 2008

There are similar stories in Hinduism for women, for fending off the unwarranted attentions of a male. In one, a young beautiful female devotee of God is pursued by a lustful fellow. The story goes that eventually she agrees to succumb to him but asks his to meet her at her home in a week times. For that week she stops eating and instead purges herself with powerful herbs, emetics; storing her sick, discharge and diarrhea in pots.

When the male arrives, filled with anticipation and desire, he castes her as aside as an ugly, sallow hag she has become demanding to drink from the essence of her once beauty. She tells him that it is in the next room and he pushes her aside in his hurry ... well, I think you get the rest. The female devotee is left along to follow her first love, for God.

I think it is actually possible to read the above quote without seeing any it as misogynist at all. There is no need to place a hardness in it. It is actually quite true ... and funnily enough, reminds me of one old lover of mine. It applies to either male or female but, as the Dalai Lama laughed in the article, "it is a book written for (male) monks". It is just one tiny application of the intellectualism, the "Buddhi"-ism, of reality.

What it is attempting to do is to discharge the Maya or illusion that builds up around sexual attraction, that is necessary for it to work. Nature's temporary insanity which it uses as a way of getting us to procreate our species and upon which multi-billion dollar industries have now been founded ... as the Beatle's once sang, "All you Need is Love (a good accountant, a lawyer and production manager)".

Traditionally, it would be used as base mental conditioning or as a cure for any young monk that is getting the hots. Even today, applied contemporaneously, it is an antidote to the effects of all the pro-sensual mental condition swilling through our society. In fact, we have all probably used similar techniques attempting to talk some friend out of a love affair that we could see was doomed or fatal. And, of course, equivalent renunciation existed through out Christianity and in the West.

In our context, the questions really are ...
  • a) is there a honey pot at the end of the renunciate path that makes the effects and cost of it all worth while? Is there a benefit to greater society?
    b) does the path of Brahma Kumarism lead that honey pot or do they offer another crock of *******?
    c) how is the tool being used?
    d) is it for everyone and if not what to do with the rest?
The answer to the second question is largely a question of faith. I, personally, do not think so. At present I, personally, think that Brahma Kumarism offers an analogue for true spirituality, that is, something that appears to "The Supreme Path" and delivers some benefit to the adherent but, in fact, is not. I think the outer garb of renunciate's path is being used for other means and other gains. The type of control and manipulation you would criticise, Jan.

The answer to the last question is a strange one. To me, despite engaging in the persistent mental condition of children and adult in the manner you criticise, the Brahma Kumari leadership appear to have relaxed their attitudes towards sex amongst their followers ... at least as far as "the business" is concerned. That is privately they appear to accept sex happens but if the individuals are still useful, they will still use them. I have also heard that Janki Kripalani gives advice to married women followers in relationship with non-BKs to give their husband "a little bit of the other", to get him off their backs until his interest droops off.

I am thinking about the Relax Kids woman (I understand the child of a BK mother) who has just recently fallen in love, gotten married and we presume started rutting but yet is still allowed to use their pure, holy retreat to promote her, and their, business. This would appear to any informed observer as even more hypocritical but what the spook or they seem to have done is used renunciation, and individual's predisposition to it as "part of the spiritual path" as a means to an end. Using its benefits, the freeing up of adherents' time, money and resources, to their Empire building advantages.

What this latest event at their most holy of venues suggests, along with other prostitution of their principles, is that even if followers do get the leg over, their time, money and resources are still accepted ... which goes against what the core teachings say.

So, in short, I wold argue that there are actually three paths at play we need to consider;
  • the renunciate,
    the householder and
    the business people who use the trappings and techniques of religion to accumulate power and wealth
    ...

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Re: A Tale of Two Paths: The Renunciate and the Householder

Post by jannisder » 20 Aug 2008

Very interesting, espexially
the Brahma Kumari leadership appear to have relaxed their attitudes towards sex amongst their followers ... at least as far as "the business" is concerned. That is privately they appear to accept sex happens but if the individuals are still useful, they will still use them.
Let me churn on that for a while. I am on the vampire thing right now.

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Re: A Tale of Two Paths: The Renunciate and the Householder

Post by jannisder » 20 Aug 2008

the renunciate,
the householder and
the business people who use the trappings and techniques of religion to accumulate power and wealth ...
Very good point and you are right.

Example, the VIPs. As long as they bring in the money, it doesn't matter what kind of lifestyle they practice. Even gets mentioned in the Murli some where. And if the renunciate cannot fulfill the law, the law has to be changed to keep them in. Householders who are not able to detach completely, need more release of the rope around their neck. The so-called teachings keep changing all the time, according to the atmosphere in the organization, until things are calmed down.

Let's say some will go into a intimate relationship ... ("take a holiday", so to speak). Some are so damaged, they can not even have a normal healthy relationship anymore and will go running back because they found out; because of the damage done by BKWSU, whatever, that indeed the world is hell, a graveyard and so on.

They cannot even live one day without the tight rope around their neck and killing themselves even more!! A way of no return, the damage is done and successful (according to BKWSU). Who is going to fix THAT!?!

"People give donations because they believe this institution is very good ... they say I don't have the power to to remain pure, I will help the Yagya. Therefore he receives the return of that what happens here.
You are given blessings and you remain happy, both in this world and in the world beyond you remain happy".


9-01-2008 Sakar Murli ???

Masochism and Pain Addiction: Beware of Inflicting Pain on Yourself in Meditation

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Re: A Tale of Two Paths: The Renunciate and the Householder

Post by mr green » 21 Aug 2008

I am not sure that he is not full of it, himself; a self-centered pundit ... but some of what he says is useful. I just don't like politics ... he sways from experience into opinion and his own blindness (which we all have).

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Re: A Tale of Two Paths: The Renunciate and the Householder

Post by fluffy bunny » 21 Aug 2008

Would you care to qualify? I heard he bakes a hot cookie cake at home.

I don't know, I think there more than a few god leads up there. I was reading his bit about Gay Spirituality, which frankly is a bit sad and stomach churning for reasons that I will expand on later, relating to folks that go for a bit of Gary Glitter in the Far East. In fact, I remember reading years ago elsewhere.

It made me start to wonder ...
Lorin Roche wrote:I do not know the percentage of men and women that are naturally gay. There are statistic wars about the number – 3% or 5% or 8%, with the gays themselves wanting the higher number (more like 10%) to be the official statistic, because it makes them a more legitimate minority group with significant political power.

Whatever this number is, multiply it by two or three and you have the proportion of gays monks, nuns, meditation teachers, priests and shamans.
How many ball breaking Brahma Kumaris, those that Jannisder is rallying against, could possibly be closest lesbians ... fighting misogynist sanskars?

Now, I know there were gays and bisexuals in Gyan. I even heard above some love action in a boy's bhavan. I would also say that in India men there is an degree of ambiguous sexuality we can discuss elsewhere ... and I know a few Western BKs that can qualify that. But, funny thing is, I never considered ... even despite the language ... that more than a few of the sisters might actually be celibate dykes.

Like he goes on to say, you have read the ads in the back pages of newspapers and magazines ... "Dominant seeking a submissive, or a slave seeking a master". This leads me to repeat what a scholar of the hugely influential Gurdieff once told me, while he considered whether Lekhraj Kirpalani might have been touched by "The Work".

He told me that when Gurdieff or one of his school went looking for students that wanted to become masters ... the quality they looked for, or invoked, was one of perversion. Not a big or sexual perversion to start with, just a little one like telling a lie to those that love you, hurting someone that is dependent on you, and so on. They thought this was a prime quality for anyone seeking to be a guru-type.

I wish I could put it as well as he did, but it made sense. I had felt it from BK Gurus and I have have proven it big time with the historical revisions (read lies).

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Re: A Tale of Two Paths: The Renunciate and the Householder

Post by mr green » 22 Aug 2008

There was a farly high profile gay guy from a boy bhavan that has left Gyan and is now doing well with his man. These things must go on. I mean look at how many gay guys are attracted to Christianity, and extreme gay guys to Catholicism.

I lived in the main boy bhavan in London for a few years, it opened my mind and I met some good friends there.

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