Celibacy - is it necessary for spirituality?

for discussing science, relationships, religion or non-BK spirituality.
User avatar
proy
ex-BK
Posts: 489
Joined: 30 Apr 2006
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-BK
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: Started as BK became ex-BK here

Celibacy - is it necessary for spirituality?

Post by proy » 03 May 2006

Yogi Pavitra Jivan

I have been reading some material first published by the Society of the Inner Light, which was a part of the Western Tradition of mystery schools. It throws much light on the question of celibacy.

“A question on which there is much disagreement in spiritual circles is dealt with in the Western Tradition by Fortune, Order of the Golden Dawn. This is the question of celibacy.

On practical matters:-
  • **Repression will lead to nervous tension which can cause difficulty on the astral.
    **Satiation will lead to lack of etheric force.
The ideal is undoubtedly a mating in which husband and wife co-operate in the Great Work and bring to their mutual relationship an understanding of its arcane spiritual significance. Some teach celibacy is essential and some do not. The Western Tradition depends largely on the group mind of the family for its function, and if those engaged in its work are at variance with the group mind, mistakes may happen.

Only those are virgin, of either sex, who have never known desire. Although the virgin soul is best suited for any work involving passive psychism, such as oracle or watcher of the sacred mirror, only the soul which has come to its full stature and known all the sacraments of nature will ever take the Supreme Degree. I cannot repeat too often that esoteric science is very far from being fool proof; and many experimenters depend for their safety solely upon their inefficiency.”

This is heady but interesting stuff. :roll: I would say that Yoga should be easy. I have found celibacy easy myself on my own path. However, in the terms of the western tradition, I had spent many years balancing my etheric and astral forces. I would imagine this is often necessary before thinking about taking the “vow of the initiate”.

In my own experience, it is the feeling that if my partner does not love my body, then they do not love me, that can cause problems. This of course is not true. True love is soul for soul, and is unlimited. I do not fall into the error of thinking that detachment means being without love, for god is love. Detachment from the emotions of the significant other is the key, and from one’s own emotions, feeling but not being ruled by feeling. This is part of self-sovereignty.

For more on the Western Tradition see my post “Illuminism".

Proy

User avatar
fluffy bunny
ex-BKWSU
Posts: 5365
Joined: 07 Apr 2006
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-BK
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: ex-BK. Interested in historical revisionism, failed predictions and abuse within the BK movement.

Re: Celibacy - is it necessary for spirituality?

Post by fluffy bunny » 03 May 2006

proy wrote:This is heady but interesting stuff. :roll: I would say that Yoga should be easy. I have found celibacy easy myself on my own path. However, in the terms of the western tradition, I had spent many years balancing my etheric and astral forces. I would imagine this is often necessary before thinking about taking the “vow of the initiate”.
You would have to qualify what " spirituality " is. It seems to have been somewhat de-valued in recent years to mean something on a par with " nice ". How do you find the BKs take to this sort of consideration these days? I don't mean the sex question so much. I know their flavoured position. I mean the talk of " balancing etheric and astral " etc. For me, this would be as reasonable to discuss as muscles and neurones or nuts and bolts for those interested. It is just mechanics of one sort.

I always felt such thought was stifled, put down as Bhakti or Maya, because they had not a clue what you were on about and it did not count for anything. I had and witnessed some very disappointing question and answer session with the Seniors when anyone tried to push things further than the party line. And I found that some of the middle ranking Western BKs used very subtle put downs to suppress such talk. If it was not in the [ ... 5 years' worth of recycled ... ] Murlis, it was not Knowledge [tm].

" Just do the Yoga, chant Baba 10,000s times a day ... that was the sum total of it all ". Ignoring that folks were getting into all sort of mental, physical and emotional states that were often curable with a little bit of massage or dietary change. I am sure that some spiritual healing would have gone down a treat there.

Yes, I still consider sex depletory and repression does lead to nervous tension. I don't buy into the New Age media on the wonders of which ever geewhiz or " ancient " sexual practise they have found to sell book or seminars this week. It is just another sort of porn for nice sensitive aesthetic folks if you ask me.
  • Is sex discussed within Gyan now?

    Has a survey been taken of how successful they are at encouraging celibacy?
The B.K. take is just, " do the Yoga and it will all go away ... write and tell Baba and he will cut your karma in half for doing it ". I am less than convinced that does and more than convinced that all those letters would have made for a great adult website!

User avatar
proy
ex-BK
Posts: 489
Joined: 30 Apr 2006
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-BK
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: Started as BK became ex-BK here

Post by proy » 05 May 2006

ex-l wrote:You would have to qualify what " spirituality " is. It seems to have been somewhat de-valued in recent years to mean something on a par with " nice ".
I mean the spirituality of the serious seeker after truth.
Who am I?
Who is God?
How do you find the BKs take to this sort of consideration these days? I do not mean the sex question so much. I know their favoured position. I mean the talk of " balancing etheric and astral " etc.
It depends on who I talk with. Most have no idea what I am talking about.
For me, this would be as reasonable to discuss as muscles and neurones or nuts and bolts for those interested. It is just mechanics of one sort.

Agreed.
Is sex discussed within Gyan now?
Hardly ever in my experience, but sometimes, yes.
Has a survey been taken of how successful they are at encouraging celebacy?
Great idea!

I am trying to encourage a bit more openess on a difficult issue, which it would be helpful for many people if it was discussed more freely. People can get embarassed, but I bring the topic up when it seems appropriate.
Personally I do not think celibacy is necessary for every person on every spiritual path, but I do wholeheartedly go along with it in my own spiritual journey. First with the Buddhists and now with the BKs.
Proy

User avatar
arjun
PBK
Posts: 11592
Joined: 01 May 2006
Affinity to the BKWSU: PBK
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: To exchange views with past and present members of BKWSU and its splinter groups.
Location: India

Post by arjun » 05 May 2006

Om Shanti.
I congratulate Proy and ex-l for their matured write-up on a possibly embarassing topic like sex and Gyan.
As PBKs, the rules of purity or celibacy are the same for us as the BKs in accordance with the Murlis and Avyakt Vanis, but we have an advantage over BKs in a sense that we have spiritual mother and Father with us. And we can discuss any matter including sex-lust with ShivBaba through letters, emails or personal talks. Some questions related to this topic are even discussed by PBKs with Baba in the discussion classes although they are couched in civilized words.

The BKs are disadvantaged ever since 1969 because all/most of the BK teachers/Dadis are virgins, who cannot discuss a taboo subject like sex-lust with the fellow BKs (especially the male BKs) because of shyness either publicly or in privacy.

As regards the letters (potamail/chart) in which BK souls give an account of their personal lives, God only knows what happens with those letters. But one thing is certain that Avyakt BapDada is not reading those letters through the body of Gulzar Dadi.
With regards,
On Godly service
Arjun

User avatar
celtiggyan
ex-BK
Posts: 40
Joined: 04 May 2006
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-BK
Location: New Zealand

Post by celtiggyan » 07 May 2006

did not Dadi Janki have a baby at some point before Gyan? She has a son, I think.

C.

User avatar
arjun
PBK
Posts: 11592
Joined: 01 May 2006
Affinity to the BKWSU: PBK
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: To exchange views with past and present members of BKWSU and its splinter groups.
Location: India

Post by arjun » 08 May 2006

Dear Celtiggyan, Om Shanti.
I don't have the exact information about Dadi Janaki, but I remember reading a post on the xbkchat that she was married prior to entering the path of knowledge. I know about Brahma Baba's daughter Dadi Nirmalshanta, who was also married before entering the path of knowledge.

The above mentioned Dadis are only a few exceptions among the thousands of BK sisters. And since even these couple of Dadis/BK sisters, who had been married or had the experience of reproduction before coming to knowledge, have left their lokik families or married life long-long ago, they are virtually like virgins only and I don't think even they discuss matters related to purity/sex-lust in the class/discussions.

As per the Murlis RajYoga is for the householders and cannot be taught by the sanyasis (monks) to the householders. Since the umbrella sustenance of spiritual mother and Father (i.e. Mama and Brahma Baba) is not available to the BKs since 1965 & 1969 respectively, the surrendered Dadis/BK sisters cannot be said to belong to the path of household and hence the Rajyog being taught by them cannot be called as the real Rajyog.

Rajyog is being taught by Father Shiv through the spiritual Father practically in a path of household.
With regards,
On Godly service,
Arjun

User avatar
mr green
ex-BK
Posts: 1100
Joined: 07 Apr 2006
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-BK

Post by mr green » 08 May 2006

No, in a word :lol:.

To live a renunciate live is not even that spiritual imho, it's more of a religious affair. Spirituality is just an outlook, personal and unique to all of us. 'That's my excuse anyways' :lol:.

Not sure i believe those stories about Janki's past. She doesn't always tell the whole truth you know :D.

User avatar
john
Reforming BK
Posts: 1606
Joined: 03 May 2006
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-BK
Location: UK

Post by john » 12 May 2006

I think to follow a spiritual path celibacy is not a definate.

To achieve the heights of Yoga as proclaimed by Shiva Baba i.e. Raja Yoga, to get to that level celibacy is needed.

User avatar
proy
ex-BK
Posts: 489
Joined: 30 Apr 2006
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-BK
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: Started as BK became ex-BK here

Post by proy » 12 May 2006

John wrote:I think to follow a spiritual path celibacy is not a definite. To achieve the heights of Yoga as proclaimed by Shiva Baba i.e. Raja Yoga, to get to that level celibacy is needed.
This is my view and experience also, john, and about sums it up for me.

Proy.

User avatar
fluffy bunny
ex-BKWSU
Posts: 5365
Joined: 07 Apr 2006
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-BK
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: ex-BK. Interested in historical revisionism, failed predictions and abuse within the BK movement.

What does spiritual or Yoga mean?

Post by fluffy bunny » 13 May 2006

proy wrote:This is my view and experience also, john, and about sums it up for me.
As a non-BK, I would agree as well but with the caveat that we need to be careful with the use of words with prior or alternative meanings, e.g. " spiritual " and " Yoga ". I am frustrated by the devaluing of the word " spiritual " to mean just about everything, describing anything from a new BMW to the latest designer fashion. What does it mean? You say, " heights of Yoga ". What does " Yoga " mean?

The trouble is we are all still blind men in a dark tent groping an elephant and hoping that we are holding onto the trunk. You say " Yoga " and it sets off a series of lofty ideals in our mind. One's opinion of Raja Yoga differs a lot depending on whether you consider this Shiva to be " The God / Godhead " of yore or not.

But, if it is connection with it/him or the experience of the non-physical realm then, yes, I think sex is too strong a bio-chemical experience to be having at the same time. I also think there is too much of a muddle between bio-chemical experiences and non-physical experiences in the " Spiritual " or New Agey community which in a sense we are a sub-sect of.

Sex is worshiped in West, may be further, in the same way that a God or religion is elsewhere. That is to say a lot of folk are going through the rote and ritual of it but not so many are having the mystic experience they believe they will if they do it! But few are brave enough to say and question it.

The emphasis and value imposed on sexual activity is way out of proportion with it benefit largely not because of the experience of it but merely because of the money to be made out of it. It seems to be part of the Western cult to sexualise everything. Even the Christian mystic traditions would define this as satanic in root and contra-spiritual life.

User avatar
proy
ex-BK
Posts: 489
Joined: 30 Apr 2006
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-BK
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: Started as BK became ex-BK here

Post by proy » 14 May 2006

ex-l wrote:But, if it is connection with it/him or the experience of the non-physical realm then, yes, I think sex is too strong a bio-chemical experience to be having at the same time. I also think there is too much of a muddle between bio-chemical experiences and non-physical experiences in the " Spiritual " or New Agey community which in a sense we are a sub-sect of.
I would agree with what you say here. It is not that I think sex is wrong, but that it is not possible to have Yoga ( meaning a connection with other dimensions and god) while having an active sex life. I have not been celibate my whole life and my personal experience is if I try to combine an active sex life with intense meditation then the meditation is reduced to having almost no effect on me.

As you say, the chemicals released into the body during sex and for a long time afterwards are very strong and not at all conducive to deep meditation. I would caution anyone to be very careful. To become celibate before a person is ready and without adequate knowledge and support can lead to very unstable emotions and pent up frustration. If you bottle it up on the sex level the energy often emerges as anger, irritability, insomnia, etc.

It is often said that the largest erogenous zone in the body is the brain. I think it is the imagination. If I do not fantasise about sex then there is no physical or emotional urge. Of course this is difficult, especially, as you also mention, in the modern world. Because of the money involved there is so much over stimulation that we are pushed towards having an over active, and ultimately disappointing, sex drive.

I have heard of BMWs being called "sexy", but never "spiritual". That is a new one for me.
Are you having a laugh or is there really such a view in the world?

Proy.

andrey
PBK
Posts: 1288
Joined: 13 May 2006
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-BK

Post by andrey » 15 May 2006

Dear brothers,

Baba speaks about a saying of Sikh people. Eki nari sada bramachari, meaning 'One wife always celibate'. (please correct if Hindi typing or translation is wrong).

How would one elaborate it?

User avatar
proy
ex-BK
Posts: 489
Joined: 30 Apr 2006
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-BK
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: Started as BK became ex-BK here

What is Spirituality?

Post by proy » 15 May 2006

What is Spirituality?

ex-l has been asking this and I have been having a long think about it.

This is a difficult one but I think we need to be as clear as possible when we use words as we do not have the non-verbal communication on the forum that we rely on so much in face to face meetings, so I will start it off. Since I have been with the BKs I have never heard a definition from them of the word spirituality. They talk about soul, god, mind, sanskaras etc., but not spirit as a specific term.

Since working at the centres as a student who is becoming a student teacher (eventually), I have met many different people coming through the door to do the courses and workshops.
Usually they are looking for something but they do not know what it is. They often try to fill this gap with over-eating, alcoholism, drug addiction etc. To my mind they are already on a spiritual path because they are seeking something beyond their own ego.

My job is to tell them they are a soul, and help them to experience themselves as souls. (= day one of the course). Then to tell them about Shiva and how their soul can take nourishment from Shiva. They will not need alcohol or other destructive means of feeding their self esteem from then on, as I hope I will be able to guide them to a meeting with Shiva. In the Confluence Age all souls have the right and ability to have this meeting with Shiva.

So, to sum up for the moment on what may turn into an ongoing definition – I would say spirituality is the recognition that I need help from a higher dimension than the physical plane of existence, and the active search for the source of that aid.

I will put in two more topics here as they crop up all over the forum and here is as good a place as any, I do not want to start a new topic, but if others feel one is necessary please feel free. The first is that many people on the forum have said that they experience very limited, if any, access to the Seniors or the Dadis in the BKs.

I feel, in Scotland, that I live in a remote place. Compared with some that may not be a true perception, as I am not so far from London. My experience is that I have asked for a personal interview with a Dadi three times and every time that interview has been given to me within 24 hours.

Every time I have asked for a personal talk with a senior it has been given to me as soon as possible, taking into consideration the distances and the fact that the person I wanted to speak with may have been in India while I have been in Scotland. Every time I write a letter or an email to a very senior BK that letter or email has been answered promptly.

These are my experiences. Others’ may differ, but I would say if you want something in the BKs and you know clearly what you want, then if it is possible then you will get it. Stand your ground and don’t be shy, ask for what you want. Secondly, I am interested in peoples’ stories, if they are willing to tell them. If you want to be private that is fine with me and I respect your right to privacy and discretion, but it would be nice to get to know you all a bit better.

ex-l – I understand you are a very private person but it would help me to know your age, the date you joined the BKs and the date you left. The reason I ask is that you once commented on what advice you would give yourself if you were a young brahmin just starting out. That was a very useful bit of advice you gave in that post, and it would help me to put it in some context. If you don’t want to answer that is fine, just say no, no problem. Or a PM would be OK too.

Love,
Proy.

User avatar
celtiggyan
ex-BK
Posts: 40
Joined: 04 May 2006
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-BK
Location: New Zealand

Post by celtiggyan » 15 May 2006

Hi Roy (maybe I know you - I am sure we have met in Scotland!).

Anyway, my experience of the Seniors is that they were bossy and treated many brothers like Taxi drivers! In any case, let's be honest, this is a new religion or even a cult, what do we expect? Nobody is perfect (yet!). I always treated the BKs like a cult (in the nicest possible way) and that way I did not get hurt. I only really went for the meditation which is the best. As for being celebate - well it depends as another poster pointed out.

If you have cravings then that too will effect your meditation. Probably the worst thing is attachment - if you could detach sex from a relationship then maybe you could be OK. Many men have this ability where sex is just like going to the cinema and effects them no worse. With many women it's much more and talk of 'love' and 'relationships' come in to play. We are often told that we should use that sexual power - convert it rather than expending it and we will have more spiritual energy. There is much talk and flan obout just how this can be done but I expect in the end it's am individual thing - your own journey and you have to find what is best for you.

C.

User avatar
fluffy bunny
ex-BKWSU
Posts: 5365
Joined: 07 Apr 2006
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-BK
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: ex-BK. Interested in historical revisionism, failed predictions and abuse within the BK movement.

Sexual energy within the BKWSU

Post by fluffy bunny » 16 May 2006

celtiggyan wrote: Many men have this ability where sex is just like going to the cinema and effects them no worse. With many women it's much more and talk of 'love' and 'relationships' come in to play.
May be ...

I don't know, I think that what you say about men being detached is more about men being emotionally hardened and cut off, a sign of spiritual sickness rather than spiritual health. The counterpoint to which, women's over emotionality, is also some sort of imbalance.

However, it is very hard to generalise because I have met many women in the West have sex like you say men do. Actually, look back on it, I wish that I had known more of them instead of spending my 20s pretending to be "pure and superior".

This whole area is a deep, extensive and fascinating one because on the surface you have layer and layers of cultural programming depending on which culture you were born into. If you take any one of those cultures, you have enough meat for to write a PhDs on sex and relationships.

Underneath that, I believe, you have a trapped universal level of human sexuality and underneath that you have a universal level of human psychic and spiritual experience. That is to say, I believe, an objective state that is not up for discussion but merely analysis.

It seems to me that most of this world is trapped in the far outer layers where sex and relationships are not discussed but just conformed to, whether is the permissive manner of the West or the restrictive manner prescribed by various religious or cultural traditions whether the Catholics, the Taliban, the BKs, the Confucianist or whatever. Currently, the liberal permissive tradition seems to be gaining the most ground.

We are here to discuss BK-ism, how it is practiced and how it effects individuals. I am interested to look at the context from which BK sexual attitudes have grown.

I remember one high profile female Western BK causing tremendous ripples because she note or accused female BKs of " using their sexuality " to get what they want - or let's call it as they do - " to do service ".

This was an unthinkable and undiscussable heresy merely whispered about by the few free and brave thinkers. Is there truth in it? I think so. In an close and to some degree repressed environment such as the BK community, only a little sex or sexual energy is bound to have a profound effect. Of course, one would have to define what was " sexual " and " sexual energy ".

How does the soul incarnate express its self without the libido?

But my first questions would be to examine Hindu sexuality, the cultural norm from which the BK and their ruling sisters expand. I have always wondered how in such an overpopulated yet non-private culture all the sex takes place to overpopulate it.

Asides from whether spiritual and psychic aspects there might be to sex, in the West there has been a long tradition, a religion, of Romanticism. The romantification of sex. Sex and romantic ideas have been interwoven from the time of the Troubadours on through until Hollywood and women's magazines take over. This is spreading to the Far East via film and the media but I do not think it is deeply rooted. Sex, emotions and the potential spirituality of sex, is bottled up as a familial obligation and mostly controlled with contrived marriage, familial regulation - or the hypocritical use of courtesans and prostitutes.

To be frank, no wonder the original BK sisters grabbed the opportunity to flee from that but did they escape the mental and emotion aspects? In my opinion, No. What is clear to me mind is that for them Brahma was a "pop star " to be projected upon with all they repressed sexual and emotional energy. This transference of sexual and emotional energy from their original families and relationships to Dada Lehkraj appears to have been used by their " God " and encouraged in the first place to bind and separate - as it does - the Om Mandali community from the wider Sindhi community from which they all came.

Now, 70 years down the line, 20 years past the expect date of Destruction, what is presented to us? Pure and holy nuns, their sex non-existent, wrapped away form the world under many layers of white. Do I buy that? Not entirely. In theory I do believe that if you are rooted to " The Godhead " you will be above and beyond sex, it will not pull you down. Few are. So where is it all and how is it being managed?

I personally think there is a dangerous concoction going on where it is not openly discussed and conceived between the Seniors and their baggage on one side and the "Honeymoon Evangelists" on the other.

Most mystic paths attempt to address it in some way, what is the BK partyline? Hang in their and fix your mind on so-called Shiva and it you start to fail come and get Dhristi from a senior?

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests