Celibacy - is it necessary for spirituality?

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jannisder
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Re: Golden Key to undo brainwashing

Post by jannisder » 08 Oct 2007

alladin wrote:BK throws s*** and accusations on people who don't accept that, calling them lustful, out of shame and guilt, so they don't question or rebel to brainwashing!!
Cult leader have a talent for psychological influence, of course.

And will tell you to excuse your abnormality that your mental/sexual problem is healthy and others who do not have a problem are sick.

That must feel good ... GOT YA!!

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Re: Golden Key to undo brainwashing

Post by fluffy bunny » 08 Oct 2007

alladin wrote:BK throws s*** and accusations on people who don't accept that, calling them lustful, out of shame and guilt, so they don't question or rebel to brainwashing!!
Putting aside for a moment Lekhraj Kirpalani marrying off his 15 year old daughter to a 50 year old man, as I understand it, and Janki's own "dalliance", I have to admit that I do not agree with you all the way here, jannisder. I think celibacy is its own sexuality and individuals have a right to chose their own sexuality ... within reason.

It is a point sparkal made earlier on the forum ... "most people are celibate most of the time". For example, we presume you are being celibate as you type onto this forum. I think celibacy is a good thing when you want to draw upon and focus your energy from deep down inside. Sex, and especially sex with other people or even farmyard animals, is complicated and involved; particularly due to the amount of time and energy involved chasing, catching and keeping it ... dealing with your own desires or capacities AND someone else's. The worst thing about human beings is that they come with all their own needs, wants and mother-in-laws, which can easily conflict with one's own. And there's no satisfactionguaranteed

I would also go as far as to say the majority of individuals, even in the sexually liberated West, hardly raise themselves above the addictive cycle of sex. Sex is addictive; whether for the orgasm, affection ... or sometimes even abuse. Most of the defenders of sex are basically, IMHO, unconsciously defending their own addiction, neediness or insecurity.

To that extent, I would say that it is better that young people are not encouraged to take up the habit of sex. This is the period that Indians call Brahmacharya or the "student days" that the BKWSU sort of takes a jump from and enters the period of Sanyas or renunciation which is meant to be had at the end of one's life.

Let's refer back to the question as it was first asked.

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Post by tete » 08 Oct 2007

Exploring the Dimensions of Human Sexuality, By Jerrold S. Greenberg, Clint E. Bruess.

The average married couple had sexual intercourse 3 times a week. The frequency of intercourse might range from 0-15 to 20 times a week for others. So, even if their frequency of intercourse is more or less than 3 times a week the behavior is within the normal human experience.
Given the frequency cited above I would dare say some had taken their lump sums of 156 times per year averages in solid helpings. :oops: So, going from feast to famine but none the less within the "normal frequency". So, maybe less is more when we have had a good Ole time and now find ourselves saying we "are" busy and doing other things that require more time and effort. :wink:

Granted more folks spend time gardening than in sexual activity. Longer lasting, bares more fruit, we get less complaints, we exert more energy and the plants don't talk back at ya. :lol: Now where did I leave my shovel and barrel?
Notice Activity Posting Green Brahma Kumaris ... gardening group meets 3 times per week, that is 156 times per year for 3 hours at a time. :shock:

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Post by fluffy bunny » 08 Oct 2007

... and what have that "average couple" got to do with spirituality, or anything, but consuming? Since when did striving for something special succeed on average efforts?

Shouldn't we paint a fuller picture? No answer necessary.

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Re: Golden Key to undo brainwashing

Post by joel » 08 Oct 2007

ex-l wrote:....the majority of individuals, even in the sexually liberated West, hardly raise themselves above the addictive cycle of sex. Sex is addictive; whether for the orgasm, affection ... or sometimes even abuse. Most of the defenders of sex are basically, IMHO, unconsciously defending their own addiction, neediness or insecurity.
So you're saying that most are trapped in sexual "addiction."

Whoa!!! That is an extraordinary claim, an extremely broad brush.

My own informal survey is that a great many people live rich functional lives, including many who embrace their sexuality. Enough for me to conclude that having and and expressing sexual feelings does not exclude other achievements in life. Not an either/or relationship.

In Roman times, eunuchs often occupied positions of authority, since their inability to have descendents reduced their threat to the imperial family. Were they higher achievers, too? Leonard Berstein's achievements as a composer and director ... are we going to mark him down because he was sexually active (and homosexual at that)?

Repressing oneself sexually tends to associate with suppressing one's creativity as well ... that was my experience. It would be great if renouncing sex or sleep could lead to self-mastery, social spontaneity, creativity, energy, enthusiasm, etc. Perhaps it does, for some.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 09 Oct 2007

I said "most defenders of sex".

By that I meant everyone from the pop psychologists to women's magazine writers via trendy vicars, who repeat the same old line, to the pornographers themselves. The propagandists. The marketeers. Actually, my guess would be you might get a more honest response from the pornographers who would be under less of an illusion and less afraid to look at it closely. Like I say, non-sexuals have rights too.

Leonard Bernstein?
  • ... new soul. First birth at the fag end of the Kali Yug. What does that prove? :wink:

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Post by jannisder » 13 Oct 2007

Non-sexuals have rights too.

And they do but it depends on what direction it comes from.

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Post by andrey » 18 Oct 2007

The world has faced hypersexuality. If in this, comparatively very few individuals make attempts to follow celibacy, they cannot be the problem. No matter whether the most appropriate or successful way is adopted, it is solution orientation. Surely there will also be a natural method?

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Post by fluffy bunny » 18 Oct 2007

I think hypersexuality is a very good term for what is sweeping the world.

This is why I questioned the "3 times a week is normal" mode ... normal for whom? Hypersexuals? I remember reading on one American native tribe that consider more then once or twice a year to be out of balance, basically sex was for procreation not entertainment, commerce or its like drug effects. And by commerce, I mean for advertising and selling movies etc. Is it need or addiction?

I have spoken to many women, who let's face it generally tend to get less out of it than the man and pay a high price, that are really upset by their partners addicition to it and being used. Personally, I do not think that Western society is "normal" or balanced and so what is "normal" to an abnormal imbalanced society is neither the norm nor ought to be recommended on that basis.

I do not own a TV and was amazed recently when I watch a night's televison. In a matter of hours I must have had sex pushed down my throat a dozen times. And everywhere else. It seemed that ever programmed HAD to have a sex act in it, homo or hetero-sexual. That too is brainwashing. When ever in history has humanity ever had THAT much sexual simulation and programming?

I am not saying I have "the answer". I am not telling anyone what to do. All aspects should be questioned. So, lets discuss it in detail.
  • Why is it so forbidden by the BKWSU?
    What is it of the act that is so apparently "spiritual damaging"?
    What is the precise payback (karmic return) for each act?
    What do you think of the place and nature of homosexuality in comparison?
It makes me wonder if enjoying "comforts" in general are "against" BK Raja Yoga? I do think that the public noises it makes about sex being an acceptable part of human love is utterly hypocritical to its real message a la "sword of lust" and falling from 5 storey buildings.

The latest sexual fashion or boundary to be explored in the West is no longer homo or bisexuality or cross dressing but transgender sexuality where individuals are physically modifying their bodies to become the members of the opposite sex. It does not stop there. A boy might become a girl to then start having relationships with girls again as a lesbian ... Is it all really necessary?

"All life is suffering" the Buddha said. You can change the flavour, or move the furniture around the house, but you are still stuck with the general experience.

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New Frontiers in modifying

Post by alladin » 18 Oct 2007

Yes, all your questions deserve being discussed and answered.

For now, let me just add an item to the $ generating based on sex business; plastic surgery. A real obsession. Ironing and filling up wrinkles, changing body and face features ... how well it was done to Sharon Stone or someone else ... and do they have better quality sex or relationships thanks to this kind or "fixing", altering, mutations and procastination of natural aging processes?

See how degradation increases? From the fitness obsession of the 80ties, look how much further they moved, more $ for those who advertise and sell such services, and more humiliations for souls who "freely" decide to undergo such treatments. Theoretically, soul consciousness should represent a good antidote against those pressures to modify.

As far as celibacy is concerned, though, I feel that power lies in the awareness, freedom and enjoyment we experience whilst practising one thing or the other. Compulsion to have or not to have sex, seems to me like a negative aspect in both sides of the coin.

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Re: Celibacy - is it necessary for spirituality?

Post by joel » 20 Apr 2008

Counterexamples

As above, the question is incomplete, lacking an actor, a subject. Who are we talking about? Does a rock, for example, find that celibacy is a needed support.

Are you talking about everyone. Are you speaking about me specifically?

No many other brothers and sisters have experienced so much benefit from purity and these others have suffered so much because of this.

Because regarding myself, I know a great deal and am the authority, and others ... For me, life is about discovery. Discovery is about exploring. Exploring is about your desires. You explore where your desires take you. In certain areas of our lives we stop exploring and stop learning. These areas the learning is frozen. What is stuck in our learning and in our thinking is often frozen in our possibilities, in our internal image of our possibilities, and our postural habits.

What happens, I think, is that certain assumptions that the person is holding with emotional associations creates a kind of tension, just like holding a brick in your hand. We use that language, tell someone you trust and take a load off your shoulders.

Someone who wants to grow more whole inside, feel open, free of conflict and cross-motivation, is, I think, someone spiritual. Or a man can be mature of integrity, yet lacking spirituality?

Is Celibacy necessary for my mental and emotional health?

Is Celibacy injurious to my mental and emotional health?


It is my explorations since leaving Gyan that have helped me expand personally, toward wholeness and fulfillment.

I will introduce two avenues of exploration, swimming and music before getting to the celibacy/sexuality question.

Learning to bob and swim while breathing comfortably, the feeling of being able to do that has changed my life, to feel long and tall and free flowing in that liquid environment, and the confidence from discovering that I can learn. (The guy that taught my first steps ^W strokes is a founding member of an intentional community involved in practicing and teaching ecological, low-impact values for living. None of them drive cars, for example.)

In the water environment you cannot achieve by trying harder, you need to become free of the type of trying you do on land, with your feet on the ground.

There is a kind of rhythmic bobbing you can learn that allows you to breathe easily while spending sometime under water, some time with your face sufficiently exposed to inhale. Like a weight on a spring, you can rebound underwater and exhale, and rise out of the water, air rushes in as the jaw drops, ribs open and abdomen rounds, all an easy, relaxed process that feels effortless, profound, like it can go on forever.

BKs: swimming is permissible if proper attire and decorum, unless it becomes a consuming interest

Music. Music is not just Maya, it is an entire world of possibilties for expression. Learning to play a little bit, to hear notes better, to really appreciate listening to people who are really on it:- some classical Indian musicians, sitar and tablas. The depth, genuineness, richness of it.

BKs: music is big Maya

listening: permissible, no loud or body conscious.

practice: permissible unless it becomes consuming interest.


Music and swimming bring me into new environments, different relations with others, and with myself. Avenues central to my growth as a person is neglected, discounted or discouraged by the BKs.

Sexuality: Here is another avenue, central to my growth as a person, vilified by the BKs. Here are living counterexamples. People I found I could respect and relate to 100% with values and lifestyle dramatically and diammetrically not BK. Each counterexample opened me to possibilities. Another founding member of the community, Daniel, is a mad scientist, geologist, sculptor, inventor. I met them at their hippy dance evenings and vegetarian dinner parties at their home. I liked Daniel because I could talk to him about anything, including relationships and sexuality. As I accepted him and witnessed his acceptance of his own sexuality, I found that I began to become more open toward my own feeling, desires, responses.

One of the people I admire and a public example of healthy sexuality is Nina Hartley. Nina works in the adult movie business, which from the BK point of view, you know, thousands of deaths' karma for helping to get people's adrenal hormones all excited and swelling their erectile tissues.

A Zen writer interviews the Zen-steeped pornstar and sexual educator.

You see her videos and its quite obvious she enjoys what she does, seems vigorous, healthy, compassionate. Has not been destroyed by lust. A counterexample for another argument with a psychotherapist feminist who believes that only messed up people are drawn to the porn industry, and that such work is inherently degrading to women.

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Re: Celibacy - is it necessary for spirituality?

Post by mr green » 20 Apr 2008

No, it is not.

Show me the evidence that celibacy helps with spirituality.

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Re: Celibacy - is it necessary for spirituality?

Post by joel » 20 Apr 2008

mr green wrote:No, it is not. Dhow me the evidence that celibacy helps with spirituality.
Latest evidence is that autoorgasmic behavior in men correlates with lower incidence of prostate cancer. In that case I am an evolutionary tactic.

Here it is: cancer-causing chemicals could build up in the prostate if men do not ejaculate regularly ... Men who ejaculated more than five times a week were a third less likely to develop prostate cancer later in life.[/url]

While I was looking for the bookmark, noted these science/health titles: Maggots a boon to Mexico health system and Exposure to dirt boosts happiness.

It is nice to know that if someone has that rotting flesh problem as from diabetes, the cheapest and most effective way to clean it out is not a surgeon with his scalpel, but these intelligent little bacteria grazing grubs. Ella Fitzgerald's legs were cut off due to diabetes. Knowing this, she might have had an alternative.

Statistics from the survival of injured soldiers at the battles of Waterloo and Tralfagars suggest that they recovered better than if they had had the 'benefit' of modern medical care.

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Re: Celibacy - is it necessary for spirituality?

Post by fluffy bunny » 20 Apr 2008

joel wrote:You see her videos and its quite obvious she enjoys what she does ...
Excuse me but either the link is surely broken or one needs to be a member to see the interview. Joel ... care to share a username and password?

Sorry to be the pendant here ... but what have we agreed "spirituality" is anyway? its seems to be as devalued to zero as the word Zen (or "Tao" for that matter).

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Re: Celibacy - is it necessary for spirituality?

Post by jannisder » 20 Apr 2008

If living celibate does not mean a men (bker) does not ejaculate regularly. They must be masturbating.

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