Learning more Hindi

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atma
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Learning more Hindi

Post by atma » 25 May 2006

Bhais,

With a very limited understanding of Hindi is anyone familiar with the following

http://ww3.pimsleurapproach.com/include ... 9&cc=j4b4e

It seems to have a strong guarantee.

Or does other know of any effective Hindi language programs?

atma

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Post by jim » 25 May 2006

Om Shanti Atma

Pimsleur is a good introduction but very limited. If there were higher level Pimsleur style courses I'd do them.

Most other courses teach grammar rather than the listen and repeat Pimsleur approach.

There are quite a few resources on the web. Teach Your Self Hindi range have two books - Yellow for dummies (which I use) and blue for non dummies (which I have in the bookcase). Also very good is Teach Yourself Hindi Conversations which unlike the others doesn't try to teach the devanagri script.

Jim

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Post by pbktrinityshiva » 25 May 2006

Om Shanti,

Some more Hindi websites i was given;

http://ncsu.edu/project/Hindi_lessons/

http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/
A dictionary resource site.

Hindi Script Tutor:
http://www.avashy.com/hindiscripttutor.htm

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Post by atma » 26 May 2006

Bhais,

Thank you for your efforts and feedback.

I will look into those links in detail.

It is something I wish to improve on.

atma

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Post by aimée » 05 Jun 2006

I tried the first site, I am actually doing it, and it is great! I think we all ought to learn Hindi very seriously, because at the end, I do not imagine anyone having the kindness, time, ability to translate for us the havoc that is going to take place. It also is a mean to be much nearer to Baba's knowledge, without the filter of any translator, however objective he may be. we are all human.

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Post by pbktrinityshiva » 05 Jun 2006

Aimee you purchased that first one that atma posted? is it worthwhile? I am interested in purchasing it if its good.

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Post by atma » 06 Jun 2006

Aimee,

you are so correct the importance of this.

Did you have any understanding prior to this course?

atma

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Post by aimée » 06 Jun 2006

I don't know about Pimsleur's approach. I have seen the price and it is enough to put me off (for a few tapes!). Jim's comments about it are correct. I just went in the first website suggested by Pbktrinityshiva, and it is good, because you have an authentic setting. And it is free. Baba (in Virendra Dev Dixit) told us that it was very important to learn Hindi. And I find it difficult, even as a linguist. I teach several languages, but all western and predictable. Hindi is the sort of language, it seems, where you have to interpret what the person is saying. this is why the person who translates will automatically put his own imprint on the translation, even if does not whish it. So I have decided to spend as much time as possible learning it, and everyone should do the same. I have started with one of the public talk from Baba, a VCD with translation, and the written version is also available (vcd36, tape 473). It is a very slow process but worth the effort, because I managed to learn the devanagri. I also use the teach yourself Hindi, that mentions Jim. And an interactive learn Hindi CDrom. Anything will do. The best would be a real teacher but they don't seem to exist where I live. If you have the opportunity to find one, at least to start with, this is certainly a great help. Baba thinks Hindi is easy and we all should know it by now (or what I think he considers, by his attitude...), so maybe there is a way, to become so soul conscience at once that we get to know it like that, by magic...

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Post by aimée » 27 Jun 2006

Here is an article, where I compiled information from various books, it might have been better to put it in the wikipedia, but I have tried to put the pictures there and I failed miserably, so I know this should be easy but ...not for me, so if anyone would like to copy this article in the wikipedia, then please do so, but also leave it here, because if you are like me, I rarely have time to go there.
Aimée

The systematic classification of Hindi sounds is reflected in the alphabet.

First group of sounds are the vowels: a-i-u-e-o (v b m , vks). Each of them has a short and then a long version (which can change the sound). Graphically the long series has a supplementary sign, a line for ? (vk), a feather for ? and ? (vkS ,s), and a hook for ? and ? (Å Ã).
When they are in pair with a consonant, they change completely their graphic form (dependent vowels, see p7 in “teach yourself Hindi”, ISBN 0-340-86687-X: the short a does not appear and is inherent to the consonant, then long a (k), short and long I (f h), short and long u ( q w ), short and long e ( s sS ), short and long o (¨ ©). _ is a letter that appears with the vowels (after long u), and is transcribed as an r with a dot underneath. It is pronounced [kri]

In the dictionary they appear as:

• First nasal (e.g. an/am)
• Then short (a)
• Then long (?)

Then are the consonants, where the air is blocked by a part of the mouth, and released (occlusive). They are classified according to their point of articulation, from the back to the front of the mouth.

The velars, at the back of the mouth:

First, the unvoiced (the vocal cords don’t vibrate): k (d)
Second, the corresponding consonant, with an aspiration: kh (£)
Third the voiced (the vocal cords vibrate): g (like in garden) (x)
Fourth the corresponding consonant, with an aspiration: gh (Ä)
Fifth and last, the nasal (nose sound) like in the end of “camping”. (³)

The palatal, the tongue sticks to the palate:

First, the unvoiced: “tch” (p)
Second, the corresponding consonant, with an aspiration: “tchh” (N)
Third the voiced: dj (like in measure) (t)
Fourth the corresponding consonant, with an aspiration: djh (>)
Fifth and last, the nasal: the ny, in “one year” the nearest I could find! (´)

The retroflex, where the tip of the tongue curves against the bump of the palate, just in front of the teeth (alveolar):

First, the unvoiced: t (V)
Second, the corresponding consonant, with an aspiration: th (B)
Third the voiced: d (M)
Fourth the corresponding consonant, with an aspiration: “dh” (<)
Fifth, a sort of cluck, pronounced between “l” and “r”: “r” (M+)
Sixth, the corresponding consonant, with an aspiration: “rh” (<+). Those two last letters are supposed to have a dot below them.
Seventh and last is the nasal. (.k)

The dentals, tongue against the teeth:

First, the unvoiced: t (r)
Second, the corresponding consonant, with an aspiration: th (Fk)
Third the voiced: d (n)
Fourth the corresponding consonant, with an aspiration: dh (èk)
Fifth and last, the nasal: n (u)

The bilabials, the sounds is pronounced between the lips:

First, the unvoiced: p (i)
Second, the corresponding consonant, with an aspiration: ph (Q)
Third the voiced: b (c)
Fourth the corresponding consonant, with an aspiration: bh (Ò)
Fifth and last, the nasal: m (e)

• The remaining letters are separate because they are considered as different:

The following ones are considered as semi-vowels, or frictionless, they are very soft: y,r,l,v (sometimes pronounced w). (; j y OK)
The last ones are fricatives, meaning that contrary to the others, there is absolutely no obstacle to the passage of the air through the mouth.
Two are now not really differentiated and are pronounced like the “sh” in “short” (‘k "k)
The snake sound: s (l)
And the last: h the aspirate (g)

The Hindi dictionary is presented in this order. So it is worth spending some time in understanding the articulation system, then instead of 10mn, you will only need 1 or 2mn maximum to find a word, I can tell you this from experience!

There are three more consonants that are not always presented in the alphabet:

“kh” with a dot below is pronounced in the throat (Spanish jota). It is a fricative, and unvoiced. (£+)
“dj” with a dot below is pronounced like a “z”. (t+)
“ph” with a dot below is pronounced like a “f”. (Q+)
There is no difference in their order in the dictionary.

Note this is a guideline and you have to accompany it with a table of the letters (see the explanatory notes of the dictionary p XVII)

As an example, if you look up a word like “farishta”, you know that the “ph” is part of the second series (starting from the back of the mouth to the front of the mouth). You know that “f” is in this section. Then the “a” is short and won’t be shown, you expect he second consonant in devanagri, the “I” being short, it should appear before this consonant “r”. At this point you have probably found your word.

For those desperate to learn Hindi and on their own, the use of the dictionary is very useful, the best one without a doubt is the oxford Hindi-English dictionary by R.S. McGregor, published by Oxford University Press (ISBN 019563846-8, very cheap in India!)

Looking in the dictionary helps with grammar and also understanding the nuances. There are so many Hindi words translated with “world/earth”, I haven’t looked into that one, but there must be a reason…

Please send me a mail to give me an opinion, questions, amendment etc.

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Post by atma » 27 Jun 2006

Aimee,

Great! :D I am waiting for a phone call from the local library on a Hindi course will provide feedback in the next while.

atma

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Post by bansy » 27 Jun 2006

There seems to be only PBKs on this thread but it is open topic.

Learning a language is indeed a useful acquired skill. But is it too late to try ? See this article from Time :
http://www.time.com/time/asia/covers/50 ... guage.html
When the humorist Dave Barry went to Japan in the early 1990s, he attempted to learn the language by reading a paperback phrase book, Japanese at a Glance, on the flight over. "That is not the method recommended by experts," he wrote. "The method recommended by experts is to be born a Japanese baby and raised by a Japanese family, in Japan."
..
It's not just Chinese that vexes us. Our ability to effortlessly absorb a new language—any new language—begins to decline by age six, according to Robert DeKeyser, a professor of second-language acquisition at the University of Maryland. By the time we are 16, we have lost just about all hope of being able to speak a second language without a telltale accent, DeKeyser says. The reasons why children have a remarkable capacity to absorb new languages that adults generally lack are unclear. Some researchers studying the brain believe the answer may lie in a fundamental process by which grey matter develops. As we age, nerve fibers in our brain become sheathed in a protective coating made of fats and proteins. This coating, called myelin, boosts the speed of signals moving through the brain, but it also limits the potential for new connections. "It's as if you have a lot of tracks where people walked around the countryside and somebody came down and put asphalt on them," says Mike Long, who also teaches second-language acquisition at the University of Maryland. "Those roads are stronger and better, but they also limit possibility." In other words, adults find it difficult to alter the way they communicate because they become wired for their native tongue.
There is one thing about learning a language, and another thing about deeply understanding it. e.g. How do you explain the "bhavna" you get from a sister/brother, as compared to the "love" you get from a sister/brother. Some words have "embedded feelings", eg rose as compared to tulip as compared to orchid as compared to cherry blossom, etc, depending on where you are.

I am no language expert, but should you spend your time churning in the language you are strongest in, or are you going to read the Murli/Vanis both in English and Hindi, but find yourself understanding and questioning in English anyway ?

Don't get me wrong, anyway, learning Hindi vocabulary is good and commendable. Though I guess when we are totally soul conscious, there is only peace and silence. Good luck.

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Post by jim » 27 Jun 2006

Bansy wrote:Though I guess when we are totally soul conscious, there is only peace and silence. Good luck.
But getting soul concious is the question in hand - and we are instructed to become manmanabhav - manmanabhav with one who thinks in Hindi.

Having leant a little Hindi it is clear how the mindset of Bharat is imbedded in the language; as you indicate above.

According to a recent BBC documentary on learning a second language, it took 3 years for Japanesse women living in the UK to drop their native way of thinking and adopt UK thinking (the test was based on the way people describe objects). So Baba is always saying we won't learn the language until live in "the society".

So off to India we go - or not!

Jim

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Post by bansy » 27 Jun 2006

So off to India we go - or not!
And also get back my job that was outsourced :lol:

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Post by jim » 27 Jun 2006

You might not like the pay rates in India though. :cry:
Bansy wrote:There seems to be only PBKs on this thread but it is open topic.
I recall from BKs days that those who were interested in Hindi were actively discouraged - although there was a basic intro class in Madhubhan. Dadi Janki advised against as she said Hindi was difficult to understand/interpret so learning it would lead to confusion.

I suppose from a BK point of view, there is no possibility of speaking to ShivBaba so why learn his language. And given BK understanding of purity, being taught by many (according to their language) is not a problem. Only if you are going to stick to One do you need to speak/think in his language - or that of his Chariot if you prefer.

Jim

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Post by bansy » 28 Jun 2006

Dadi Janki advised against as she said Hindi was difficult to understand/interpret so learning it would lead to confusion.

I suppose from a BK point of view, there is no possibility of speaking to ShivBaba so why learn his language. And given BK understanding of purity, being taught by many (according to their language) is not a problem. Only if you are going to stick to One do you need to speak/think in his language - or that of his Chariot if you prefer.
Language and culture come together (what exactly is "Brahmin culture" can be another thread). Though the language used is often within an Indian context and Indian mindset, and maybe even more to be in India itself.

Indians outside India would still feel India as their homeland. As much as African Americans have some sort of affinity to Africa, overseas Chinese to China, overseas French to France, etc. Or if one is Scottish, do you support Scotland or England in the World Cup Final ? I am only guesstimating here. Yes OK, souls have no such identity, but the body that houses that soul does. Do you become soul conscious when you get your brahmin passport, and where does that get issued ?

So for language reasons and also as time is running out, shouldn't all BKs and PBKs be back in India instead and spend their money there, instead of investing outside India where it will get destroyed ? I think some other members have previously mentioned how difficult it is for BKs to penetrate the "west", and hence they also get pulled to those cultures whilst trying to push the BK culture. Whereas ShivBaba understands that it is only Bharat that is the focus of attention, and other countries get "general" attention. Dadi Janki could be correct.

So even if the pay rates are not good, the returns for your future inheritance would surely pay off ?

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