Remembrance of home

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john
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Remembrance of home

Post by john » 31 Jul 2007

Murli quote from Revised Sakar Murli dated 20/04/04 published by BKs
The main thing is to remember the Father. The Father Himself sits here and teaches you the drill. This is dead silence. Whatever you can see here, you mustn’t see that. You have to renounce everything including your body. What are you looking at? Firstly, you see your home, and, secondly, whatever status you are to achieve according to your study
What is 'your home' referring to in this Murli quote? It doesn't say ShivBaba'a home, but 'your' home. What is ShivBaba asking souls to remember?

'ShivBaba's home' can be interpreted as the Chariot, but 'your home' cannot. So is ShivBaba asking us to remember Paramdham the Soul World beyond the sun, moon and stars?

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Post by new world » 01 Aug 2007

Well done, bro John. It would be better if you quote original Hindi Murli statement.

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Post by arjun » 01 Aug 2007

John wrote:'ShivBaba's home' can be interpreted as the Chariot, but 'your home' cannot. So is ShivBaba asking us to remember Paramdham the Soul World beyond the sun, moon and stars?
Om Shanti.

I think ShivBaba (through Baba Virendra Dev Dixit) has clarified that both ways, i.e. whether it is mentioned as 'ShivBaba's home' or 'your home', Paramdham refers to the Chariot in this Confluence Age. How can we remember something which we have not seen? We can only imagine the Soul World to be like this or like that. Although BKs make people experience the Soul World through peaceful vibrations, soul conscious stage, RajYoga commentary, soothing music, and other paraphernalia associated with it, but nobody has actually seen the Soul World. The Soul World is mainly associated with silence. If we can get/experience that silence through the incorporeal Shiv present in a Chariot, then that Chariot itself proves to be the Soul World (for those who have faith &/or experience).

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OGS,
Arjun

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Post by john » 01 Aug 2007

arjun wrote: How can we remember something which we have not seen?
Then who has seen a soul? How can we remember a soul if we haven't seen it?
'your home', Paramdham refers to the Chariot in this Confluence Age.
Is it possible to apply any logic to this or is that thrown out of the window? If we remember the Chariot then is that not body consciousness? I thought the idea was to remember Shiva in the Chariot, but not the Chariot.

The phrase 'remember your home' is therefore, with your interpretation meaning to remember the Chariot. Also how can a Chariot be labeled 'your home' unless we actually go and reside in there at some point?
new_world wrote:Well done, bro John. It would be better if you quote original Hindi Murli statement.
Sorry but I don't have any access to Hindi Murlis.

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Post by andrey » 01 Aug 2007

Home may mean home for the soul. The soul is mind and intellect. The place where the mind can go and rest, the destination of the intellect. Otherwise intellect is stuck to the material world. If he knows that the Supreme Soul has come in a particular place, in paricular body, then the mind and intellect like soul can go there to feel like home.

It is said that the atmosphere of Paramdham will become tangible in this world, that we'll have to bring Paramdham on this world. Madhuban is also called unlimited home. Madhuban measn the place where there is unlimited disinterest and sweetness and where the giver of knowledge gives knowledge.

It is said for this home that it is the gathering of the brotherhood of soulconcious children. In a home there is feeling of familly, no one will be able to see bigger home than this and there will be goldy law and order there, children will sit numberwise.

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The soul is mind and intellect, please explain more.

Post by abrahma kumar » 01 Aug 2007

andrey wrote:Home may mean home for the soul. The soul is mind and intellect. The place where the mind can go and rest, the destination of the intellect. Otherwise intellect is stuck to the material world. If he knows that the Supreme Soul has come in a particular place, in paricular body, then the mind and intellect like soul can go there to feel like home.

It is said that the atmosphere of Paramdham will become tangible in this world, that we'll have to bring Paramdham on this world. Madhuban is also called unlimited home. Madhuban measn the place where there is unlimited disinterest and sweetness and where the giver of knowledge gives knowledge.

It is said for this home that it is the gathering of the brotherhood of soulconcious children. In a home there is feeling of familly, no one will be able to see bigger home than this and there will be goldy law and order there, children will sit numberwise.
I know that some may shoot me down in flames for this post but i wont be deterred by that because i too have things to learn. Andrey, when you say "the soul is mind and intellect" what do you mean exactly? Is this what advanced knowledge teaches? Thanks.

My understanding of the BK knowledge is that the form of the souls is a point of light. I also understand that Mind and Intellect (together with Personality traits) are somewhat like organs of the soul. Perhaps if i use the word 'capabilities' rather than 'organs' the understanding that i have would become "easier" to grasp by bk or non-bk alike. With my understanding, the Mind, the Intellect and our Personality traits can be said to represent the different ways that the soul expresses itself; but i do not take them to actually be the soul.
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Abrahma Kumar

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Post by john » 01 Aug 2007

andrey wrote:It is said that the atmosphere of Paramdham will become tangible in this world, that we'll have to bring Paramdham on this world. Madhuban is also called unlimited home. Madhuban measn the place where there is unlimited disinterest and sweetness and where the giver of knowledge gives knowledge.
If Paramdham is not remembered then how can it be brought down to this world? If as ArjunBhai says we cannot remember what we cannot see, then how will we know what is Paramdham to bring on this world?

As far as I understand it and according to BK and PBK knowledge, Paramdham is the place of light beyond this physical universe, where souls reside whilst not playing a part on the world drama.

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Post by andrey » 01 Aug 2007

br abek,

Exactly mind and intellect and traits is the soul, according to the advance knowledge. They are contained in a minute point of light. Traits or habits, or past experiences or the role. It is said in the Murli that this is the wonder of nature, such a big part recorded in such a tiny soul.

dear br. john,

Even whilst the soul is in the world drama it can remember and expereience the Soul World. The soul can remember also feelings, not only images. it is siad that all souls reside there. it is said that the soul's nature is peace. so this feeling of peace can be experience here, whilst in the body, and the home is the source of such feeling, the Father. it is said that if you cannot remember the small form, the soul, then remember the big form, the home. The feeling of peace can come to the soul when it goes in the stage of soul-conciousness then this stage is also called to go to heaven. so it is said many times, remember me, the home, heaven, Narayan, and the question is how many things we have to remember.

It is called easy knowledge and Yoga and effort, that hints that all of these should come to mean one and the same thing, so that the intellect can stabilize in one thing, in one place, the lotus posture of the mind, lotus-like stage, complete detachment, nastomoha, smritilabdha, purity, peace. Although all of these have some additional meaning in their essence they are all to say with words what is silence, incorporeal seed like stage that is above speech that cannot be expressed in words - nirvana, above words, high stage Paramdham, highest home, point like form, embodiment of rememberance, heaven in hell. The Confluence Age is the time of experience. Making the impossible possible - the experience of this experience whilst in the body.

It is said in the Murli that i have come to take all you souls back home and that alls souls reach this stage whether through effort or though punishment, it is said that we go together, so maybe when they reach such stage one just leave the body and remain there, whist the other can return in the body to play a part.

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Post by john » 01 Aug 2007

andrey wrote:Even whils the soul is in the world drama it can remember and expereience the Soul World. The soul can remember also feelins, not only images. it is siad that all souls reside there. it is said that the soul's nature is peace.
Yes, I agree but i don't think you are expressing a typical PBK view. Yet, in my experience of reading Murlis and remembrance I think you are correct

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Post by arjun » 04 Aug 2007

John wrote:Then who has seen a soul? How can we remember a soul if we haven't seen it?
Soul cannot be seen but it can be experienced or realized because it is a living entity. But Paramdham, as described by the BKs is a non-living entity and hence can be experienced only when one goes there. Since nobody has seen it, nor can go there physically, whatever we say about gross Paramdham is only an assumption. Even in the Avyakt Vanis Avyakt BapDada says that Paramdham represents the seed-like or incorporeal or thoughtless stage of the soul.
John wrote:Is it possible to apply any logic to this or is that thrown out of the window? If we remember the Chariot then is that not body consciousness? I thought the idea was to remember Shiva in the Chariot, but not the Chariot. The phrase 'remember your home' is therefore, with your interpretation meaning to remember the Chariot. Also how can a Chariot be labeled 'your home' unless we actually go and reside in there at some point?
We don't have to remember the Chariot but the living Supreme Soul present in that Chariot. Remembering only the Chariot is definitely body-consciousness. But those who cannot remember the Supreme Soul within the Chariot and remember only the Chariot also get some benefit, because they have at least realized that the Supreme Soul is present in that Chariot.

Residing in that body-like home does not mean leaving one's own body and entering into that body. We have to develop such seed-like/incorporel stage in which the Supreme Soul/number one soul (of Prajapita) lives.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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Post by john » 04 Aug 2007

arjun wrote: But Paramdham, as described by the BKs is a non-living entity and hence can be experienced only when one goes there. Since nobody has seen it, nor can go there physically, whatever we say about gross Paramdham is only an assumption.
Yet whatever the soul has experienced remains in the souls memory does it not. Like Golden Age can only be experienced as a memory because we are not there and that world is also non-living.

If we have experienced Paramdham as the Soul World then we should be able to remember it. If we haven't experienced then as I said before how does anyone including Shiva know what it is.
whatever we say about gross Paramdham is only an assumption.
Surely that is what Gyan is about, so we don't have to make assumptions. In that sense can it be said every piece of Gyan is an assumption? Of course without having access to all Sakar Murlis and therefore complete knowledge there will be more assumptions.
Even in the Avyakt Vanis Avyakt BapDada says that Paramdham represents the seed-like or incorporeal or thoughtless stage of the soul.
So is this seed-like, incorporeal, thoughtless stage experienced in Paramdham?
Do you have any quotes?
Residing in that body-like home does not mean leaving one's own body and entering into that body. We have to develop such seed-like/incorporeal stage in which the Supreme Soul/number one soul (of Prajapita) lives.
I am still not sure how this can be construed as 'your home' as explained in Sakar Murli.

To be clear can you please answer.
  • 1. Do PBKs believe in the existence of Paramdham the Soul World beyond the sun, moon and stars.
    2. Do PBKs remember the above described Paramdham as part of their Yoga?

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Post by andrey » 04 Aug 2007

I don't agree we will be having complete knowledge when we gain access to all the Murlis. This is knowledge for the practical life and not for reading and narrating, that's why i sincerely feel that a considerable volume of chat here is just for the sake of it.

We'll be called knowledgeful when we realise our own self-part, that is not written in the Murli. In the Murli, we can find the way how to become knowledgeful. The difference between knowledge as some certainty and assumption is that one is checked and verified and other not, but since there is no way and mean to check and verify the existence of soul or God then this is of course assumption. Maybe we should also find our way in all the assumptions that which assumption seem more reasonable.

Regarding the "your home", sometimes a parent can say this is your home to the child, but it is also the home of the parent is it not. We should not go in such small details if there is not going to come something considerable out of it. For example, when in the Murli it is said i come in them (in Hindi), it is used plural form. It is not a small detail.

Regarding the questions:
  • 1. Yes
    2. No, because there is no benefit in it. whatever we remember we will become like that. If we remember a nonliving element we will become nonliving.

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Post by john » 04 Aug 2007

andrey wrote:We should not go in such small details if there is not going to come something considerable out of it.
Just because you can not see any benefit in it doesn't mean there is not, can you please get back off your pedestal. For me remembrance is the upmost important topic, if you cannot see that then that is an indication of your future.
If we remember a non-living element we will become nonliving.
a) Body is non living therefore any Chariot body of Shiva is non-living, so, why prescribe remembering the Chariot as the home.
b) A soul can not become non-living.
c) It is prescribed to remember Shiva the living soul in Paramdham, whether it is Soul World or Chariot they are both non-living.

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Post by arjun » 04 Aug 2007

John wrote:If we have experienced Paramdham as the Soul World then we should be able to remember it. If we haven't experienced then as I said before how does anyone including Shiva know what it is.
That is why He comes and makes us experience what it means to be in a Paramdham-like stage while living in this old world.
John wrote:So is this seed-like, incorporeal, thoughtless stage experienced in Paramdham? Do you have any quotes?
No, here in this world in the Confluence Age. I will try to quote.
John wrote:To be clear can you please answer.

1. Do PBKs believe in the existence of Paramdham the Soul World beyond the sun, moon and stars.
2. Do PBKs remember the above described Paramdham as part of their Yoga?
  • 1. Yes.
    2. No.
John wrote:a) Body is non living therefore any Chariot body of Shiva is non-living, so, why prescribe remembering the Chariot as the home.
It is not prescribed to remember the Chariot, but the incorporeal living soul within the Chariot.
John wrote:c) It is prescribed to remember Shiva the living soul in Paramdham, whether it is Soul World or Chariot they are both non-living.
Both are non-living, but we have to spend all the 5000 years in the company of the body and half of that period would be spent in seeing the soul within the body. That is why ShivBaba makes us practice seeing the soul (or Supreme Soul) within the body (or Chariot).

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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Post by john » 04 Aug 2007

arjun wrote:It is not prescribed to remember the Chariot, but the incorporeal living soul within the Chariot.
In this point, I emphasised remember the Chariot as the home, as opposed to just saying remember the Chariot. If in Murli it says remember the home or Paramdham and PBKs say Paramdham means the Chariot, then automatically you are saying remember the Chariot as the home (Paramdham).
That is why He comes and makes us experience what it means to be in a Paramdham-like stage while living in this old world.
So are you saying the memory of Paramdham is in souls or God or both or neither?
That is why ShivBaba makes us practice seeing the soul (or Supreme Soul) within the body (or Chariot).
What original schools of Hindu thought do these two ideas belong to, remembering God as disincarnate spirit and remember God as (or inside) a bodily being?

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