Who is the God of Gita - Krishna, Ram or Shiva baba?

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john
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Post by john » 09 Oct 2006

Shivsena wrote:As regards the Chariot; ShivBap again has given many hints in many Murlis about the chaitanya Paramdham (Ram's body) and not jad Paramdham; He has said many times about "sweet silent home"; now which is this sweet silent home; is it jad Paramdham above? (what is so sweet about it??) or is it the final nirakari stage of Ramshivbaba which will be sweet to all of us and all PBKs are trying to achieve this stage; is it not??
Yes, i see you have a point, is it possible for you to actually quote a Murli with date with regards Chariot as Paramdham?

As Shiva speaks in an unlimited sense can the meaning of Paramdham not be applied to both Chariot and literal Paramdham?

It is also said souls should bring down the stage of Paramdham to earth, but this doesn't discount Paramdham existing as a brahm element beyond the physical universe ... I think it is possible for Shiva to be giving literal and subtle meanings to points of Gyan at the same time.
I can take each and every word and explain the subtle meaning but it will take some time.
Yes, I would appreciate it if you could ... I have before felt that PBKs have taken one line out of a paragraph and given it a different meaning ... an 'out of context' meaning. If you could explain it all in context with the Murli quote that would make more sense.

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Paramdham

Post by shivsena » 10 Oct 2006

John wrote:Yes, I see you have a point, is it possible for you to actually quote a Murli with date with regards Chariot as Paramdham?

As Shiva speaks in an unlimited sense can the meaning of Paramdham not be applied to both Chariot and literal Paramdham?
Dear john Bhai.

I do not remember the dates of Murli; but i know that many times it has been said that "if you cannot remember me then remember my home";(which home is he talking about - not the jad home but chaitanya home(Ram's body) because Ram's body is immortal and sweet silent home )

The words of Supreme Soul Shiva have always to be taken in the subtlest sense and never in the literal sense (Absolute Truth has no duality); Those who take everything literally will not see the truth and will fail; only those who try to understand the subtlest meaning of the Subtle Father Shiva with their intellect, will pass and come in the rosary of 108 (Gyani tu atma).

More thoughts on Paramdham.
If there is a golden-red coloured Soul World(Paramdham) somewhere in outer space and all the souls and Supreme Soul Shiva are to return to the Soul World and then play their part in the next Kalpa then one query is puzzling me; how do the souls(who are in the seed stage) come to know that now it is their time to come on this earth to play their part as in the Soul World there is no concept of time ; the concept of time(5000 years) is there only on earth as the drama on enacted only on earth and not in outer space or any other planet.

Please give this a thought.
shivsena.

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Post by bansy » 10 Oct 2006

If there is a golden-red coloured Soul World(Paramdham) somewhere in outer space and all the souls and Supreme Soul Shiva are to return to the Soul World and then play their part in the next Kalpa then one query is puzzling me; how do the souls(who are in the seed stage) come to know that now it is their time to come on this earth to play their part as in the Soul World there is no concept of time ; the concept of time(5000 years) is there only on earth as the drama on enacted only on earth and not in outer space or any other planet.
Just to add to this valid query. As per PBK Advanced Knowledge, if the Supreme Soul is here in a Chariot in the corporeal world, how and what do the souls in the Soul World know what to do; whereas with the BK Basic Knowledge, the Supreme Soul is in the Soul World so soul can get their direction. Both PBKs and BKs agree Paramdham exists.

Seems we're back to working out and trying to understand the first two lessons. Maybe the answer to all our questions is "acceptance".

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Post by john » 10 Oct 2006

Shivsena wrote:The words of Supreme Soul Shiva have always to be taken in the subtlest sense and never in the literal sense (Absolute Truth has no duality);
In that case nothing in Murli is possible to be taken literally according to your above statement;
  • Therefore there is no 5,000 cycle.
    There is no Satyug.
    There are no deities.
Could you clarify if that is what you mean?

For me what is the deciding factor in understanding Gyan correctly is understanding what is literal and what is subtle or symbolic and what has a literal and symbolic meaning.

In my observation some of the points BKs take as literal, are symbolic according to PBK knowledge and visa versa. Some points being Golden palaces and vimans are taken literal for BKs, but symbolic for PBKs.

Trimurti (Shiva playing 3 parts) is taken literal by PBKs, but is considered symbolic by BKs, as they consider Shiva to only play a part through Brahma (Lekhraj Kirpalani)

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Post by arjun » 10 Oct 2006

John wrote:For me what is the deciding factor in understanding Gyan correctly is understanding what is literal and what is subtle or symbolic and what has a literal and symbolic meaning.
Dear John Bhai,
Om Shanti. Yes, I agree with you. I feel each and every word written in the Murli cannot be viewed only in the subtle sense. There can be many things which could be taken in literal sense also. Although nobody has seen Paramdham physically, but I feel that when Baba speaks of Paramdham in the Murlis He speaks both in literal and subtle sense.
With regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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Post by pbktrinityshiva » 10 Oct 2006

I do not think there's any harm in understanding things in a literal way first as a stepping stone to the unlimited meaning.

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Post by shivsena » 11 Oct 2006

John wrote:In that case nothing in Murli is possible to be taken literally according to your above statement;
  • Therefore there is no 5,000 cycle.
    There is no Satyug.
    There are no deities.
Could you clarify if that is what you mean?
Dear john Bhai.

You have expressed your thoughts nicely about the "Symbolic" and ''literal" meaning.

I take back my word "always" replace it with ''most of the time''; ShivBap is talking about the subtle drama and maybe sometimes he is talking about the broad drama; i sincerely feel that when he is speaking the Murlis most of the time he is talking about the future events to come in Sangamyug and not about the past events which have already been passed in the 5000 year cycle; if he keeps on talking about the past drama which has already happened then why should he say repeatedly that "past is past" (beeti so beeti).

I fully agree with you that there may be some mahavakyas which are in literal sense which relate to the broad drama of 5000 years; but mostly he is speaking in a subtle sense and describing the subtle drama which is presently taking shape in the brahmin family; and those who have the power to discriminate this fact (which drama is he describing) those are the souls who will have passed the exam and will come in 108 rosary (''sara madar padayee par hai'' - meaning that ''the whole emphasis is on the study''.)

shivsena

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Post by shivsena » 11 Oct 2006

pbktrinityshiva wrote:I do not think there's any harm in understanding things in a literal way first as a stepping stone to the unlimited meaning.
Dear trinity Bhai.

I agree with you that the first step is to understand the literal meaning; when one has joined the school the intellect is not able to grasp the deeper meaning of any subject; so literal meaning is fine at that stage; but when you join college or do a postgraduate course then one has to go deeper into that particular subject to understand it fully otherwise one may miss the bus; we are supposed to reach the rosary of 108 and if after almost 60 years of study, we keep on harping on the literal aspect of the Godly knowledge makes no sense to me; its high time now that we went into the deeper aspect of this wonderful Godly knowledge; this is what i want to convey.

shivsena.

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Post by arjun » 11 Oct 2006

So according to you, Supreme Soul Shiva is teacher and Krishna is student studying RajYoga in the same body of Veerendra Dev Dixit. So it is Krishna who is doing the purusharth of becoming nar-se-Narayan and not Ram's soul. As you are saying that Ram's soul is in continuous rememberence of Supreme Soul Shiva to attain the 100% incorporeal stage, is that what you mean?

So my question still remains unanswered what is the end stage of Ram's purusharth and what title does he get in the end. Does it mean that Krishna becomes Narayan and Ram becomes living embodiment of ShivBaba, i.e. 100% incorporeal stage. As it is said, in Murlis that ''ShivBaba ki mahima alag aur Krishna ki mahima alag" (the praises of ShivBaba is different from the praises of Krishna)
Dear Shivsena Bhai,
Om Shanti. Although I have said that Krishna is the student studying the advance knowledge through the body of Baba Virendra Dev Dixit, it does not mean that the soul of Krishna (i.e. Dada Lekhraj) is making efforts to get transformed from a man to Narayan. How can it make such efforts when it has already left its own body in 1969? It can only obtain the advance knowledge but it will become Narayan only when it takes birth as a child Krishna to the Confluence-Aged Lakshmi and Confluence-Aged Narayan and then grows up.

It is the soul of Ram only who is making efforts like all other PBKs to get transformed from a man to Narayan. The end stage of Ram's purusharth itself is to become Narayan. He gets the title of Prajapita/Confluence-Aged Narayan/ShivBaba in the end when he attains a stage equal to Father Shiv.

With regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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Post by creative » 13 Oct 2006

Andrey wrote:Baba says the easiest method is to remember Narayan because it is a complete form and it is the aim.
Om Shanti Dear Andrey.

I am new to the forum. Can you please eloborate about remembering Narayan?

Thank you.

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Post by andrey » 13 Oct 2006

Narayan means the true Narayan who becomes directly from a human being to Narayan in the Confluence Age, and not as Brahma Baba, who becomes from an ordinary human being to prince in the next birth. Baba says if you tell a medicine student you study the study now, and become a doctor in the next birth will he study? Even the doctor that teaches him the study, the media - Brahma Baba if he does not become a doctor - deity himself how can he makes other doctors - deities. Here the matter is different because the one who makes others deities is not a deity himself, but he makes one child equal to himself in stage and he becomes the first deity Narayan. This combination we should remember.

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Re: Shankar, Prajapita, Ram

Post by shivsena » 13 Oct 2006

atma wrote:Is Shankar, Prajapita, Ram not the same Chariot?
Dear atma Bhai.Very very good question.

According to the Murlis;
  • Shankar is always aakari (sukhma-vatanwasi ie in the Subtle Region)
    Prajapita is always saakari ( in the corporeal world)
    And Ram is ShivBaba (nirakari- 100% incorporeal stage)
Pbk think that 3 are the same while the Murlis say that all 3 are different.

shivsena
======

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Post by andrey » 15 Oct 2006

So, these are different stages, is it not so? When it is the stage of Shankar, when the stage of Prajapita and when the stage of ShivBaba?

I know in Shankar 3 souls play a part (Shiva, Krishna, Ram). Maybe if the soul of Krishna does not play the part in Shankar anymore He is not Shankar and he becomes Prajapita. Prajapita is when all the praja - subjects accept him as Prajapita (even if just the 8 accept him, then He is Prajapita too because the whole world is merged in these 8) ... and ShivBaba ... for me ShivBaba is a role of Shiva. You say ShivBaba's part has not yet come. But please, tell when will it come? Do you have a date for this too? How will you note the incorporeal stage of the soul of Ram (if it is he who plays the role of ShivBaba)? Shiva is always in this incorporeal stage so it is easier to remember Him always.

It is as though you have made an incredible invention. OK, please share with us. You only ask questions that as you say PBKs have no answers of but these are easy questions. It is as if you have invented some new method but if it is not verified by Baba, of what use it is becasue He is the highest authority, is it not so? Why should you just separate yourself from the other PBKs and Baba, just based on this that you have some special ideas? OK be the clever and enlighted one in the gathering, in front of Baba ...

But, yes, the Chariot is only one, is it not so?

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Post by shivsena » 17 Oct 2006

Andrey wrote:So, these are different stages, is it not so?
When it is the stage of Shankar, when the stage of Prajapita and when the stage of ShivBaba?
Dear andrey Bhai.

According to the Sakar Murlis: "Vishnu aur Shankar ko prajapita nahin kahenge" (meaning that Vishnu and Shankar cannot be called prajapita) and all PBKs believe that Shankar is prajapita. PBKs have equated subtle Deity Shankar with corporeal entity prajapita. This is the cardinal ambiguity between the Murli points and the teachings of advance knowledge. i do not know what to believe and what to forget.

shivsena.

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Post by shivsena » 03 Nov 2006

Dear arjun Bhai.

In av. Vanis it is often said that "Follow Father"; i have asked this question to many PBKs in mumbai and all are puzzled with this query and they all give different answers; can you please give your views as to 'Which Father' are we supposed to follow:

ShivBap or ... Rambap or ... Brahmabap.

And also how do we Follow the Father.

shivsena.

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