Are there limitations on the Ocean of Knowledge?

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bansy
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Post by bansy » 01 Jul 2006

Dear ArjunBhai

Let's make it clear once more :

1) The red wordings in "Points for Churning (Murli points)" and "Practical Use of Baba's Knowledge (DHARNA points)" topic threads are Murli/Vani clarifications narrated by Baba (i.e Shiv + Virendra Dev Dixit + Lekhraj Kirpalani souls)

2) The red wordings in "Q&A with Baba" topic thread are by Baba (Shiv + Virendra Dev Dixit .... and also Lekhraj Kirpalani ?)

3) ShivBaba = Shiv + Virendra Dev Dixit

Please correct.

Regards
Bansy

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john
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Post by john » 01 Jul 2006

Arjun wrote:Whereas, when the soul of Lekhraj Kirpalani enters into the body of Shankar (Virendra Dev Dixit or the seed of humanity) in the gathering of the PBKs in a seed-like stage, it also attains the seed-like stage and thus the physical effect of the subtle body of Lekhraj Kirpalani is not seen on Shankar.
Arjun are you really trying to say all PBKs are in a seed like stage who come into the gathering before ShivBaba?

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Post by arjun » 01 Jul 2006

John wrote:Arjun are you really trying to say all PBKs are in a seed like stage who come into the gathering before ShivBaba?
Dear brother,

I am not saying that all the PBKs who sit in the gathering before ShivBaba are cent percent in a seed-like stage like the corporeal medium of Shiv, but they definitely are in a numberwise seed-like stage and definitely more than the BKs. If you view any of the vcds or practically visit Kampil or other mini-Madhubans/gitapathshalas you would experience it yourself. Only a soul with seed-like stage can be able to remain alive (i.e. faithful to Baba) in the world of seed-like souls, i.e. PBKs.

The facilities, helping hands, help material, surroundings, strong and numerous gatherings, classes, service programmes that are available to the BKs for effortmaking are not at all available to the PBKs. They have to constantly face the opposition from their own lokik family and the aloukik Brahmin family (BKs). Moreover, being the souls with king-like sanskars, the sanskars of PBKs keep clashing with each other. But in spite of all odds, the PBKs are able to continue in the path of advance knowledge only because they have recognized the ONE seed-Father and have practiced considerable soul consciousness to attain a numberwise seed-like stage.

If anyone feels that I am exagerating, then I think the PBKs from foreign countries who have also been with the BKs for a long time can relate their experience of being with the PBKs.

With regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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arjun
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Post by arjun » 01 Jul 2006

Bansy wrote:Dear ArjunBhai

Let's make it clear once more :

1) The red wordings in "Points for Churning (Murli points)" and "Practical Use of Baba's Knowledge (DHARNA points)" topic threads are Murli/Vani clarifications narrated by Baba (i.e Shiv + Virendra Dev Dixit + Lekhraj Kirpalani souls)

2) The red wordings in "Q&A with Baba" topic thread are by Baba (Shiv + Virendra Dev Dixit .... and also Lekhraj Kirpalani ?)

3) ShivBaba = Shiv + Virendra Dev Dixit

Please correct.
The red wordings in "Points for Churning (Murli points)" and "Practical Use of Baba's Knowledge (DHARNA points)" are not from the mouth of Baba (Virendra Dev Dixit), but have been taken from the Murlis which were originally spoken by Father Shiv through the medium of Brahma Baba (Dada Lekhraj) and are being revised every five years by the BKs since 1969.

The red wordings in "Q&A with Baba" topic thread are words spoken by Shiv through the body of Baba (Virendra Dev Dixit). As clarified by ShivBaba himself in one of the answers it is Shiv who gives the answers and not the corporeal medium (Virendra Dev Dixit).

For PBKs ShivBaba = Shiv + present corporeal medium (i.e.Virendra Dev Dixit)

With regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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aimée
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Post by aimée » 01 Jul 2006

Thank you Arjun Bhai for clarifying this rather difficult topic.

I would like as a foreigner to share my point of view. I used to be in one of the most attactive setting as a BK, in a sort of princess castle. And even if I had to face some difficulties with some rather strong souls, there was this real feeling of family, with so much facilities, celebrations, very nice food, so many sweet brothers and sisters to interact with. The only thing is, without realising it, I really felt oppressed with the lack of simplicity, meaning I suppose a very strong hierachical order, and a lot of ego I could witness but did not want to admit it was there, or that it was wrong.

When I went to Kampil to do the bhatti, I had to sleep on the floor (cement one, with a few millimeters of foam layer). We had lunch twice a day, eating on the floor, and we had to sit hours and hours to go through the course and have some points translated from the Murli. We had the first meditation at two o'clock, and we would be more or less sitting with something like an hour break, until 8. My first reaction when I arrived is that I would not be able to cope because of my back problems.

But this is a magical place, and when I now remember it, for me there is just this vision of it beeing in the anteroom of paradise... Nothing was difficult, we were just absorbed in knowledge. The food was like...soft, delicious, simple, but full of good vibration, the water from the well was like silk. the sisters were so natural, and so respectful. I needed to come a second time (or at the end of the first stay) to realise who the coordinator of Kampil was, because she was behaving so much like the others, no hierarchy, the only reference being Baba (in Virendra Dev Dixit of course), for any tiny decision.

I did not meet many brothers because we were totally separated. Being seeds, soul conscious does not mean we are better, and we are like the BKs, a bunch of weirdoes, in a different way. I guess the major difference is the recognition of ShivBaba, meaning God in his different roles (the Trimurti) and in the Chariot now. When Virendra Dev Dixit started to churn deeply the knowledge in 69-76, he also said to the sisters in charge and the souls around, look what you are doing is not right, you have put images of Baba (Lekhraj Kirpalani) when it is said in the Murli not to put images, you are doing this and that etc.

Of course, they were not delighted with him, and they ended up chucking him out (like they have done for me, but I was treated in a much better way than he was!). What did make me recognise him immediately? I am not entirely sure, but I know that as a BK I always saw Dada Lekhraj as an instrument, with Shiv on his forehead having the commands and the power. What also delighted me is when I saw Baba (in Virendra Dev Dixit) for the first time. We were putting our saris on, and we just saw him looking at us with a big grin at the door. With his hat and his small size, he looked for me like a pixie, a magical apparition.

When he took his hat off his hair was all over the place, but he could not bother less. That was the way I see him, how God has to be among us, so simple, like a Father, like a friend. He is always smiling, has a good sense of humor, has a lot of tenderness, doesn't interfere with our drama, he can only give us clues, non intrusive, this is why his answers are not always straight forwards. He plays his role in the drama.

I think soul consciousness is that ultimately, stripping ourselves from all that is not necessary any more. In the course about The Kalpa, Christian sanskars is also the "pomp and show". I know I am born in a western country and I have to clean myself from it. This is very subtle including, I guess, in my way of churning knowledge/ Not "I guess" but "actually", surely it is.

The seed souls (PBK) also represents the different religions, like the root souls (BK). We have different roles, all important. What I like as a seed, is that I know where I am going and what I need to do to get rid of my Christian sanskars, maybe Buddhist sanskars, Sanyasi....? I am focused, where as a BK, I made enormous progress without a doubt, but I was floating.

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Post by john » 01 Jul 2006

Arjun wrote:If anyone feels that I am exagerating, then I think the PBKs from foreign countries who have also been with the BKs for a long time can relate their experience of being with the PBKs.
Not exagerating as such, but this doesn't seem lke a credible explaination as to why Lekhraj Kirpalani enters in a seed like stage. You yourself have said Baba sometimes takes classes with non PBKs i.e. relatives or friends of PBKs, so in that instance does Lekhraj Kirpalani not come.

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Post by john » 01 Jul 2006

What I like as a seed, is that I know where I am going and what I need to do to get rid of my Christian sanskars, maybe Buddhist sanskars, Sanyasi....?
Dear Aimee

What about Kaliyug Hindi sanskars, are we to keep hold of those?
Has India not gone from the highest to the most degraded?

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Post by aimée » 02 Jul 2006

It is also something to get rid of, as they are the tamopradhan Bhakti sanskars. My list was not exhaustive! In the tree, the trunk shows all the worship that is going on. I suppose that when we were deities we were in good company and so did not degrade as much, then we got coloured by the company of all the souls of all the religions. The earliest we come in the cycle, the most degraded we end up. I am not sure what my broad drama is, but if I have been born in a Christian/atheist country, then it must be for a good reason.

I am also supposed to have traces of Bhakti in me, I am not sure how. What I know is I really did not agree with all the worshiping going on with the Dadis, especially Dadi Kumarka in India. However, we are all supposed to have Indian sanskars in us, and like the others, to find them and get rid of them.

Your question to Arjun is very interesting, and I would also like to know what the answer is.

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Post by arjun » 02 Jul 2006

Brother John wrote:
Not exagerating as such, but this doesn't seem lke a credible explaination as to why Lekhraj Kirpalani enters in a seed like stage. You yourself have said Baba sometimes takes classes with non PBKs i.e. relatives or friends of PBKs, so in that instance does Lekhraj Kirpalani not come.
Yes, in some of the gatherings that Baba addresses, there are some non-PBK or non-BK souls. But that is very rare and even on such occassions the PBKs are in majority.

But as I have said earlier the primary reason for the soul of Lekhraj Kirpalani attaining a seed-like stage is due to his entering into the body of Shankar/Prajapita who is the seed of the humanity. Both the unlimited fathers, i.e. Father Shiv and Prajapita are in an incorporeal seed-like stage. So when the soul of Lekhraj Kirpalani comes in their company by entering the body of Shankar/Prajapita (i.e. Virendra Dev Dixit) then it also attains a seed-like stage.

I would like to add that Baba has told us that even when such BK souls, who have left their bodies, enter the bodies of PBKs, then, generally they also attain a seed-like stage due to the numberwise seed-like stage of the PBK in which they enter. Such souls generally enter the PBKs to listen to the advance knowledge. But when the PBK souls are not strong enough in their stage, then some evil souls/ weak BK souls can also enter into them and show their physical effect. This also has been witnessed by many PBKs on some occasions. Baba has said that such incidents of evil souls entering into weak Brahmin souls would increase as the natural/man-made calamities increase.
With regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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Post by arjun » 02 Jul 2006

Sister Aimee,
Om Shanti. Thanks for that wonderful experience. You got to sleep on a few mm of foam on floor. But as far as I know during winters it was a practice for many years to spread layers of dry cut paddy/wheat plants (straw) that are available for cheap after the cutting of paddy fields. A bedsheet would then be spread on that layer of straw. The experience of sleeping on such naturally cushioned floor used to be much better than the synthetic cushions that cause back-aches.

And I also remember bathing with cold water in the peak winter season as there is no supply of hot water for everyone as in Mt. Abu. The spiritual intoxication used to be such that the cold water never appeared a difficult obstacle. But when I try doing the same thing in peak winter at home, it appears quite difficult, although I know many souls (both PBKs and outsiders) who are strong enough to bathe in cold water in peak winters.
With regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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Post by andrey » 02 Jul 2006

Dear brother John,
The rosary or rudra is the numberwise rosary of souls in numberwise seed like stage that are the planning party. In them numberwise souls of the inspiration party come to study advance knowledge and attain the seed like stage, because all souls must attain this stage in some way. Dada Lekraj is the No 1 soul from the inspiration party. He plays the part of entering into the No1 soul of the sundinasty to study and attain the seed like stage.

Jagadamba is the seed of the moon Dynasty from the rosary of rudra, because the soul of Dada Lekraj that is the moon of knowledge on entering her, colours her and helps her understand who is the God of the Gita and make her attain the seed like stage.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 02 Jul 2006

Andrey wrote:Jagadamba is the seed of the moon Dynasty from the rosary of rudra, because the soul of Dada Lekraj that is the moon of knowledge on entering her, colours her and helps her understand who is the God of the Gita and make her attain the seed like stage.
Which "Jagadamba" is this now !?! To the BKs, Jagadamba - " the World Mother " - is the BK Sister that was known as Saraswati. Lekhraj Kirpalani's number 2.

Are you saying that Lekhraj Kirpalani enters BK Saraswati ...

Please explain yourself and the terms you use. I do not see any mention or relationship of Jagadamba to this post, you seem to have a tendency of jumping off in another direction altogether. If you want to introduce the PBK concept of Jagadamba, perhaps it ought to be done in a new topic. But you need someone to help you with your English.

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Post by andrey » 02 Jul 2006

Jagadamba is the world mother of all mothers, mother to even Saraswati mother. Saraswati Mama, Om Radhe is only a title holder Jagadamba, as Dada Lekraj is only a titleholder Prajapita.

In the bedinning there used to be a mother Gita Mata - the wife of Gita Pati Bhagavan. Krishna is her child.

Jagadamba is also said for the soul of Krishna, when it plays a role in a female body. Jagadamba is the soul of this body.

Jagadamba is the role of the mother for the whole of population of the world.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 02 Jul 2006

Andrey wrote:Jagadamba is the world mother of all mothers, mother to even Saraswati mother. Saraswati Mama, Om Radhe is only a title holder Jagadamba, as Dada Lekraj is only a titleholder Prajapita.

In the bedinning there used to be a mother Gita Mata - the wife of Gita Pati Bhagavan. Krishna is her child.

Jagadamba is also said for the soul of Krishna, when it plays a role in a female body. Jagadamba is the soul of this body.

Jagadamba is the role of the mother for the whole of population of the world.
Why say "Jagadamba is also said for the soul of Krishna" when we know that the " soul of Krishna " is Lekhraj Kirpalani? This does not make any sense whatsoever.

Lekhraj Kirpalani was a man. He died. The PBKs say he has not incarnated. Gita Mata and Lekhraj Kirpalani were alive at the same time. Which is Krishna are we talking about now, the literal Krishna, metaphorical Krishna, some kid who happens to be called PBK Krishna !?!

I don't care if you people think that you have 'Advanced Knowledge' ... what you need are 'Advanced Communication' skills.

One thing that might be useful is if the PBKs sat down and drew a graphic representation of all this incarnation, reincarnation, lineage and titleholder stuff.

If you want to communicate your ideas to others, you need to define your terms clearly and systematically. The way you are presenting it all is just a confused puzzle that does not help others understand.

This is something for the forum admin to sort out with you people ...

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Post by john » 02 Jul 2006

Aimee wrote:It is also something to get rid of, as they are the tamopradhan Bhakti sanskars. My list was not exhaustive!
Thank you for the clarification. It can maybe be a situation for us westerners to romanticise about India and some Indian born souls might think it's a good idea that we adopt there habits to bring us closer. In reality tamoprahdan habits from all cultures are not right for any BK/PBK wanting to attain purity.
I am also supposed to have traces of Bhakti in me, I am not sure how
Maybe anything that is not 100% truth is Bhakti.

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