Flaws in BK and PBK Knowledge

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Flaws in BK and PBK Knowledge

Post by shivshankar » 27 Oct 2016

Greetings to all souls, who are still here and still discussing knowledge etc, trying to find out Absolute Truth, which is Shiva Himself!

As destruction is on the way, there are some questions which are not addressed properly, such as:

1. As there is no thought in Paramdham, why are we trying to visualize point (Shiva), orange light, etc., while meditating on Supreme Soul?

2. Why do we offer food to Him, as there will be no such practice in the Golden Age?

3. Why nobody pays real attention to the point of Knowledge, which says that EVERYTHING in this Drama is predestined, so nobody should blame anybody for something (including themselves)?

4. Why there are a lot of portraits of Brahma Baba in Centers when we should Remember Point of Light, and feel ourselves as points of light?

If somebody has more significant questions of such type please post them here. Also please tell if you are interested in receiving answers for them. It's time to complete the education ;-)


= RESPONSE =

NICE HAND, ss !
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=1991&p=28475&hilit=poker#p28475

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Re: Flaws in BK and PBK Knowledge

Post by mbbhat » 28 Oct 2016

shivshankar wrote:1. As there is no thought in Paramdham, why are we trying to visualize point (Shiva), orange light, etc., while meditating on Supreme Soul?
1) Murli points put here - Post No. 202) - Mu Point No. 02) - http://www.brahmakumarisforum.net/chat/ ... age#p15532
2. Why do we offer food to Him, as there will be no such practice in the Golden Age?
2) viewtopic.php?f=39&t=2332&p=51792&hilit=offer#p51792

Even in Golden Age, there would be some tradition. baba has said- at the time when parents are going to give their property/throne to children, they wash feet of the children.
3. Why nobody pays real attention to the point of Knowledge, which says that EVERYTHING in this Drama is predestined, so nobody should blame anybody for something (including themselves)?
3) This is off topic. The topic is flaws in BK and PBK philosophy, not flaws in BKs and PBKs.
4. Why there are a lot of portraits of Brahma Baba in Centers when we should Remember Point of Light, and feel ourselves as points of light?
4) Post No. 208- http://www.brahmakumarisforum.net/chat/ ... 881#p15881

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Re: Flaws in BK and PBK Knowledge

Post by sita » 28 Oct 2016

Even in Golden Age, there would be some tradition. Baba has said- at the time when parents are going to give their property/throne to children, they wash feet of the children.
Do you believe it refers to performing this ritual physically?

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Re: Flaws in BK and PBK Knowledge

Post by shivshankar » 28 Oct 2016

mbbhat wrote:3) This is off topic. The topic is flaws in BK and PBK philosophy, not flaws in BKs and PBKs.
It is not off topic, it is one of key points of all Knowledge, which is misunderstood or ignored by many BKs, and even Didis. And at the same time, complete understanding of this point leads one to receive jivanmukti.

As for points from Murlis which you have mentioned - Yes, Shiva "said" all this, but it was through Brahma, who had his own experience and understanding, and it was in the beginning and sustaining stage of the Yagya. Now we are in the END part of this Kali-Yuga, so there will be some additions and clarifications. Also we should remember that most of first students of Yagya were not well educated and open-minded, so Shiva had to explain everything in appropriate manner, using references to scriptures, etc.

1) So, as there are no thoughts in Paramdham, it simply means that when we are there without body, we cannot distinguish ourselves from Shiva Himself, because there is no ego, only unity and nothing more. The same experience one can receive right here in life, and it is called Jivanmukti, when you realise that there is nothing except Shiva or Atman or Brahman or whatever you may name it.
Shiva says in Murlis that He is not omnipresent, He is not in rocks or in trees or in air. Yes, that is true, but what you realise after experiencing Unity is that all this material world is in Him, and you yourself are nothing but part of Shiva, of His divine light or literally HE.

2) All traditions are here in the copper and metal ages. Deities are aware of Unity of them and fully complete with energy, so they play their roles without following any insignificant rituals, such as paying more respect in some cases or places. They are completely respectful even while asleep. Their food does not need to be offered because it is completely pure.

4) Destruction is before us. So as Shiva had said there is no need of corporeal portraits, it is Bhakti rudiment also.

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Re: Flaws in BK and PBK Knowledge

Post by mbbhat » 29 Oct 2016

shivshankar wrote:It is not off topic, it is one of key points of all Knowledge, which is misunderstood or ignored by many BKs, and even Didis. And at the same time, complete understanding of this point leads one to receive jivanmukti.
The underlined words themselves imply that your claim is 'flaws within BKs', and NOT not flaws in their philosophy/knowledge*.

The Kingdom is being established, not just Kings, so there will be defects in children. So- your query of asking- why someone is doing something- does not fit as per topic of the title (which says- flaws in Knowledge).
----And we all know that just 8/108 are going to pass (that is what philosophy says), so then, the claims on even mistakes of them lose further value.

So- a kind suggestion is- you may try to think on these two aspects - in DIFFERENT WAYS- INSTEAD OF MIXING THEM TOGETHER, for better understanding.

Or- are you going to say- the BK/PBK knowledge itself is wrong - and your knowledge is something more advanced than the so-called advanced knowledge? So- better make your points clear.

A similar topic title is also put here- viewtopic.php?f=39&t=2099 .

You may see how the TS (Topic Starter) in that topic has proved that basic belief and claims - even physical aspects or intellectual ones- from the very foundation to the end - are WRONG!
The difference is- PBKs not only misinterpret/misunderstand the Murli points, but also
---claim something which is not in Murlis,
---and go against several other Murli points, WITHOUT EVEN REAL-EYEsing same,
---also do not hesitate to call the Murlis as False Gita.

That is the reason why the topic title fits there properly.


But- in THIS topic, it does not fit properly (definitely the one for which the comment is put for point no. 3) - what is asked in the first post.

Now- to the point of discussion- The basic of/for anything is purity, love and power, and the knowledge is the only temporary foundation.
----In the whole Kalpa, Knowledge exists just in Conf Age, but Paramdham, God, soul, heaven, etc exist for more time.
---Those who are caught in ego of Knowledge, instead of seeing the fruit of the Knowledge (goal), they just see only the boat (tree).
---Since their eye-sight is not enough to grasp the subtle things, their intellect is caught in (troubled/confused by) physical things. Instead of seeing and experiencing the peace of Paramdham, they like to see it just as a physical abode. So- their intellect can 'see' only physical aspects of even spirituality.

But- still they comment in physical things as well. Why this tradition is being done, why that is being done.
----On one hand they say- photo of Chariot should not be kept, but on the other hand, they say- God should be remembered in the Chariot only - NOT REAL-EYEsing that by doing so, they are COMMITTING the EVEN GREATER BLUNDER of keeping the DYNAMIC photo/impression of their Chariot, and CORRUPTING God with an embodied soul.

There is a saying- "Great minds discuss ideas, average minds discuss events, and lower minds discuss about people".
So- if our aim is to become high, then better discuss on ideas more, than events and people.

When we discuss on pure people/things, even those people are like ideas, because their life itself is an ideal. Paramdham - the World itself is an ideal.

In sleep, we do not enjoy anything. There is no any input (either physical or thoughts) either to body or mind during sleep. But, then why do we sleep? Is it not enough if take food and water?
Similarly, remembering Paramdham is also like that. Baba praises even Bhaktimarg people for that. But, just sleep is not enough for life. So- we have to think about- Soul, God, Paramdham and heaven - ALL.

Practice by anyway one likes. If you feel you get elevated, keep on doing. As we grow we will find better ways or become more efficient. Even in this world, it is said- great people do not do different things - they do things differently. Similarly, there are various ways for remembrance- some are more efficient/powerful than others.

----------
* - Just see- if you are going to say/argue- "All the BKs are wrong including Mama and the Chariot Brahma Baba", then the topic title you have written is right.
---For example, in that topic- the TS(myself) claims the intellect of whole of the PBKs including their Chariot is wrong.
---But- if you believe Murli point really have truth in it, and BKs have not been able to understand in right perspective, then the topic title what you have written is not right.

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Re: Flaws in BK and PBK Knowledge

Post by shivshankar » 29 Oct 2016

OK brother, your understanding is quiet deep and intellect is sharp. So I hope you will find out during this conversation that the only aim is to clarify some significant points of Knowledge and to share experience which in the same time everyone can achieve by himself. So the aim is not to criticize what and how was done, but expand and change perception of Knowledge and Drama.

You will see what this new perception will go along and from basic Knowledge points. In the same time this realisation which will be described further may be achieved by everyone, because it's our nature right now and ever.

As for topic, let it be as it is even if will not fit aim of discussion.

So let's return to Drama and its predetermination. It is basic point of Knowledge, but it is said by many teachers (even BrahmaBaba) that nevertheless one should make effort in order to achieve higher place in the Golden Age etc. Once again: Drama is predestined. So efforts are also predestined, desire to make efforts is also predestined, power of desire is also predestined, changes in all that guess what? You are right - Predestined.

What about choice? Can one choose his role in this Drama? Nope. Could Adolf Hitler choose another role in order not to make so much sufferings to others and in order not to receive punishment (bad karmic accounts) for this? Nope. So should we blame somebody or ourselves for anything or it is better to become complete detached observers and instruments in Dramas hands whatever it will happen around us.

Complete understanding of this point happens after so called nirvikalpa samadhi. This change in perceiving happens automatically and completes all questions about "I" "God" "Drama" and so on and so forth.


= RESPONSE =
should we blame somebody or ourselves for anything
PREDESTINED!
become complete detached observers and instruments in Dramas hands whatever it will happen around us
PREDESTINED!
Complete understanding of this point happens after so called nirvikalpa samadhi.
PREDESTINED!

ANY FURTHER QUESTIONS or FURTHER DISCUSSION FROM YOU - PREDESTINED!

IN CASE YOU DECIDE TO JUST SHUT UP, FOR A CHANGE, RELAX, AND BE AT PEACE WITH YOURSELF -
AS Shankar MERGED IN SHIV - THAT WOULD BE PREDESTINED, ERR... OR WOULD IT?

LET's WAIT and SEE ... !!!

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Re: Flaws in BK and PBK Knowledge

Post by shivshankar » 29 Oct 2016

Peace man, peace!!

What should be said will be, so relax!

Illusion is in considering ourselves to be separate from One. It is a habit to identify yourself as ego, as personality. Truth is that we are not separate beings, we all are part of Shiva, literally. Once again: there is real opportunity, especially right now, at the end of the Cycle, to realize all this by your own experience. It's not something new, many yogis had received such experience, and continue to receive, even faster than in the past. Also, that fulfills all holes in Knowledge and in perception of reality.


= RESPONSE =

PREDESTINED!

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Re: Flaws in BK and PBK Knowledge

Post by shivshankar » 30 Oct 2016

As well as your ego's reaction to that information, but it may change. As long as you have desire to stay in that illusion of being a personality you will stay there. But it may change one day, who knows. I wish you will have such an opportunity in your role in this Film called Drama.


= RESPONSE =

When Shankar ACTUALLY MERGES into Shiv, His EVERY WISH MUST ESSENTIALLY TURN INTO AN IMMEDIATE REALITY!

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Re: Flaws in BK and PBK Knowledge

Post by mbbhat » 30 Oct 2016

Illusion is in considering ourselves to be separate from One.
This is not illusion. It is discrimination. We need to discriminate to know the reality*.

It is uniqueness and self esteem. It is/can be also self-realization.

* - I believe intellectually, we should discriminate, but emotionally, should not. Some related points are put in post Nos. 109, 222, and 197
- --109 - http://www.brahmakumarisforum.net/chat/ ... aita#p4315

---222- http://www.brahmakumarisforum.net/chat/ ... aita#p4841

---197 - http://www.brahmakumarisforum.net/chat/ ... aita#p4777
We all are parts of Shiva.
If you believe so, then the topic title is right. You may proceed.

So, if advaita is fully right, (physically as well as emotionally)- not sure whether you really believe physical world exists or even that is just an illusion, then finally- even knowledge would be proved as just illusion.
------------
If possible kindly mention- whether you believe BK Murlis are really Godly/highest versions? Or believe something else is higher one? If you believe BK Murlis are highest knowledge, then the topic title again becomes wrong. But, if you believe even the Chariot Brahma Baba has also not understood the Murlis in right perspective, then the topic title is right.

Anyhow- the topic title is not an issue, you may proceed. I may reply if I feel. Thank you, welcome and all the best.

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Re: Flaws in BK and PBK Knowledge

Post by shivshankar » 30 Oct 2016

shivshankar wrote:Peace man, peace!!
What should be said will be, so relax!
There were "))" and ")", not "!!" and "!"
Thank you.


= RESPONSE =

What does "))" and ")" actually mean ?

One guess - perhaps the DUALITY of Shankar & Shiv MERGING into the UNITY of ONLY Shiv ?

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Re: Flaws in BK and PBK Knowledge

Post by shivshankar » 30 Oct 2016

mbbhat wrote:This is not illusion. It is discrimination. We need to discriminate to know the reality*.
You are quiet right, but identification of ourselves with body, or at least with personality, is such a huge habit, that it is very difficult to detach yourself from these two objects. This body/ego consciousness is so strong that it returns immediately after stopping meditation, even if you practice remembrance 24\7. When realization of the Unity happens, one realizes how all this creation/Creator system works. It is direct Knowledge which gives answers who am "I", who is "God" and how creation works. You directly "see" positions of body, ego, material and consciousness in that system. Also you realize who is "you" and "others" indeed.
mbbhat wrote:So, if advaita is fully right, (physically as well as emotionally)- not sure whether you really believe physical world exists or even that is just an illusion, then finally- even knowledge would be proved as just illusion.
Advaita is based on direct realization of Truth. But it doesn't pay much attention to the scenario of this Drama. So we can say that Knowledge given through Brahma combined with that experience of Unity gives full "picture" of all what is happening around and between and where ever.
mbbhat wrote:If possible kindly mention- whether you believe BK Murlis are really Godly/highest versions? Or believe something else is higher one. If you believe BK Murlis are highest knowledge, then the topic title again becomes wrong. But, if you believe even the Chariot Brahma Baba has also not understood the Murlis in right perspective, then the topic title is right.
Everything goes from One source. Knowledge which was given through Brahma has particular significance. As well as Knowledge through any other person aimed to realize and to share higher truth with others. Everyone has his own role especially such persons as prophets. Brahma is not an ordinary prophet, of course his role is much more significant, but we should remember that he had his own experience, and information through him was also very special. But now we are going to live in completely changed world with completely other principles of perception. Consciousness will be United, this is the basis of prosperity of the Deities in the Golden Age.

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Re: Flaws in BK and PBK Knowledge

Post by shivshankar » 30 Oct 2016

[color=#FF4000][b]RESPONSE[/b][/color] wrote: When Shankar ACTUALLY MERGES into Shiv, His EVERY WISH MUST ESSENTIALLY TURN INTO AN IMMEDIATE REALITY!
It is just a concept in your mind. What and how this will happen we will see further.
What is reality for you? And who are you indeed, do you have answers which are not just concepts?


= RESPONSE =

Is your ANSWER a REALITY ALREADY or is it STILL a CONCEPT???
If it is, INDEED, a REALITY ALREADY, then what motivates you to STILL MEDDLE with CONCEPTS???

"I am Alpha and I am Omega! I am the BEGINNING, the MIDDLE and the END of ALL BEINGS and ALL SYSTEMS of THINGS! NOTHING that is NOT WITHIN ME, can EVER EXIST ‘without’ ME; and ANYTHING that is ‘without’ ME, must ESSENTIALLY EXIST WITHIN ME"!
viewtopic.php?f=40&t=1217&p=48949&hilit=omega#p48949

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Re: Flaws in BK and PBK Knowledge

Post by shivshankar » 30 Oct 2016

[color=#FF4000][b]RESPONSE[/b][/color] wrote: What does "))" and ")" actually mean ?
One guess - perhaps the DUALITY of Shankar & Shiv MERGING into the UNITY of ONLY Shiv ?
")" = ":)" = ":-)" and not "!" definitely!
Guesses will stay as guesses until you realize your own Higher Self. There will be no doubts and questions about anything, thereafter!


= RESPONSE =

Have the KG-B ALREADY REVEALED the CODES to the MAIN-FRAME COMPUTER of this MATRIX to you,
AS YET??? Or, ARE YOU PINNING your HOPES on the IS???

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Re: Flaws in BK and PBK Knowledge

Post by shivshankar » 31 Oct 2016

Knowledge is so simple, reality is so simple. But children have such a big habit for Bhakti that there is not only one sect, but two now ;-)
There is no need for rituals anymore. All efforts should be aimed to realize Higher Self, because most part of the souls will merge in One very soon. Some lucky ones will manage to receive jivanmukti rather than mukti. However it all doesn't have a big significance, as we all are One right now and always.
This is the main food for thought at the moment, not even Murlis.
Time for Murlis has passed. It is time for last transformation.


= RESPONSE =

As you ALREADY FEEL and EXPERIENCE that, "WE ARE ALL ONE, RIGHT NOW", why are you STILL sensing ANY DIFFERENCE between US, AT ALL, RIGHT NOW???

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Re: Flaws in BK and PBK Knowledge

Post by shivshankar » 07 Nov 2016

[b][color=#FF4000]RESPONSE[/color][/b] wrote: Is your ANSWER a REALITY ALREADY or is it STILL a CONCEPT???
If it is, INDEED, a REALITY ALREADY, then what motivates you to STILL MEDDLE with CONCEPTS???
As it was said, there is no need for guesses, as everyone has an opportunity to find out all answers to all questions. This experience lies beyond mind, thoughts and concepts. And at the same time you are THAT at the moment. The only thing is that "attention" is attracted and filled with many objects, so our UNITED nature is hidden. Literally there is ONE consciousness, which is Shiva itself, (if you wish to consider same by this name), and this Drama, which have same properties like a dream.

Concepts are used for directing attention, as minds have habit to use concepts. When REALIZATION of your own Nature is achieved, there is no need for concepts to understand or perform something. You don't think of the scenario of the dream, you just watch it. In the same way, you stop thinking of the scenario of this Drama.
[b][color=#FF4000]RESPONSE[/color][/b] wrote: "I am Alpha and I am Omega! I am the BEGINNING, the MIDDLE and the END of ALL BEINGS and ALL SYSTEMS of THINGS! NOTHING that is NOT WITHIN ME, can EVER EXIST ‘without’ ME; and ANYTHING that is ‘without’ ME, must ESSENTIALLY EXIST WITHIN ME"!
Yes IT is, but IT is not a person in the sky. IT is more likely the basic source of ALL.

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