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bansy
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Post by bansy » 28 Oct 2007

Thanks for the reply.

I agree. When one purifies oneself, the vision and the surroundings also purifies. Extension of the aura.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 28 Oct 2007

new knowledge wrote:Realisation of the divine form of the self is that source of reasoning the Vishnu Party gives to the purification of the soul. Purification of the elements of Nature occurs simultaneously with the purification of the soul.
It all sounds good to me too. Nice theory for which we look forward to examples of practical manifestation.

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Post by tinydot » 28 Oct 2007

bansy wrote:I agree. When one purifies oneself, the vision and the surroundings also purifies. Extension of the aura.
To some degree, however, unless more impure souls contaminate/pollute (physically and spiritually) this world, then pure souls who purify it, the net effect is still contamination/pollution.

Are dishonesty, lies, and cover-ups by certain people, sources of pollution that counter the effects of purification exerted by few?

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Reasoning of Sources Divine in Nature

Post by abrahma kumar » 28 Oct 2007

Thank you new world.

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Post by arjun » 29 Oct 2007

new_knowledge wrote:Realisation of the divine form of the self is that source of reasoning the Vishnu Party gives to the purification of the soul. Purification of the elements of Nature occurs simultaneously with the purification of the soul.
This has been the belief of the BKs and PBKs as well, based on the versions of ShivBaba.

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Post by abrahma kumar » 29 Oct 2007

as ex-l offered: Nice theory for which we look forward to examples of practical manifestation.

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Post by new knowledge » 29 Oct 2007

bansy wrote:I agree. When one purifies oneself, the vision and the surroundings also purifies. Extension of the aura.
tinydot wrote:To some degree, however, unless more impure souls contaminate/pollute (physically and spiritually) this world, then pure souls who purify it, the net effect is still contamination/pollution.
Why 'only' contamination/pollution should be considered as the net effect? Why not to think aboum the net effect when the purity within souls gets more strength than the impurity within that souls? - Then the net (resultant) effect may be elimination of contamination/pollution step by step.
Are dishonesty, lies, and cover-ups by certain people, sources of pollution that counter the effects of purification exerted by few?
Yes, you are correct. And lack of introspection, self-realisation (i.e, lack of realisation of divine self) is the main cause of impurity.

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Post by new knowledge » 31 Oct 2007

bansy wrote:What source of reasoning does Vishnu Party give to the purification of soul and elements of nature?
Your query has so many dimensions. Let's now see what's the effect of purity on elements of nature.

We cannot expect that a peace of ice should always remain a peace of ice in any atmospheric conditions, like changing temperature & pressure. Due to the effects of temperature & pressure, ice could be converted into water & water could be converted into vapour. Similarly, we could not expect that each of 5 elements (earth, water, fire, air & sky) of nature should maintain its existance
eternally in all & all conditions, i.e, we could not expect that the corporeal world should always remain eternally in the corporeal form.

When souls are at their lowest level of purity, (i.e, lowest level of celestial degrees), elements of nature get converted into 5 elements (earth, water, fire, air, sky). As purity (level of celestial degrees) of souls increases, first 2 elements - earth & water - get converted into remaining 3 elements - fire, air & sky; thus only 3 elements (fire, air, sky) out of 5 elements could maintain their existance at a higher level of purity. And with the more increasing level of purity, these 3 elements could not maintain their own existance & at a very high level of purity (with 9 to 16 celestial degree level) these 3 elements (fire, air, sky) get converted into another 3 elements - supreme fire, supreme air, & supreme sky.

Again after 16 celestial degree level, i.e, when souls achieves unlimited celestial degrees purity, then these 3 supreme elements are converted into the Supreme Light element and finally all souls & elements of nature get merged in the Supreme Father, i.e, Brahm - which is the birth place of all souls & elements of nature.

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Post by bansy » 31 Oct 2007

Thanks for the reply. Yes, my query has a wide dimension, so I hope you can break in down in an easy way for members to grasp. Please feel free to raise a new thread if needed.

Can you explain how, then, does impurity come so that we are now at the lowest level of purity. i,e explain about the role of "thoughts" as in accordance to Vishnu Party Gyan. How do you compare this with the explanation of the downfall of souls from BK/PBK Gyan about the world degrading over time ?

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Confused about the 5 elements

Post by abrahma kumar » 31 Oct 2007

bansy wrote:What source of reasoning does the Vishnu Party give to the purification of soul and elements of nature?
Brother new knowledge you quoted the above question but as i read your reply i am unable to discern an answer. Maybe i am overlooking something or your Vishnu Party beliefs are beyond my capacity to understand. Anyway, when I, as a human being who has come under the influence of BKWSU teachings, hears mention of the term '16 celestial degrees' my mind goes towards the Golden Age aka Heaven. Do the 5 elements you mention (earth, water, fire, air, sky) exist in the Golden Age?

Since it is a general belief that these same five elements are part of our present 'world' in the same form of earth, water, fire, air, sky; can you share some more about the 'elements of nature that get converted into 5 elements'? If those five are the same five elements how is it possible for them to get 'converted' into the same five elements?

By 'convert' do you mean that the 'quality' of the five elements is 'altered' rather than that they become 'something else'?

Since i am obviously confused i am wondering if my bafflement will be eased if i substitute the words 'altered in quality' for your word 'convert'.

regards
abek

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Post by paulkershaw » 01 Nov 2007

I think that once again your understanding; Abek - is very deep and insightful.

Surely, spiritual Ascencion means to alter the quality of the elements from within and without and then move beyond the base elements that will no longer be able to hold the new energy one has become?

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Re: Confused about the 5 elements

Post by new knowledge » 02 Dec 2007

abrahma Kumar wrote:Anyway, when I, as a human being who has come under the influence of BKWSU teachings, hears mention of the term '16 celestial degrees' my mind goes towards the Golden Age aka Heaven. Do the 5 elements you mention (earth, water, fire, air, sky) exist in the Golden Age?
Through different angles, Vishnu Party also believe that we will be 16 celestial degrees complete in the Golden Age; but neither this Corporeal World is a proper place where the Golden Age could be established; nor the Corporeal World & its 5 elements - earth, water, air, fire & sky - have sufficient potentiality to hold that atmospheric conditions which are essential for the sustenance of the Golden Aged deities; nor the the 5 elements of this Corporeal World, without changing their nature (qualities), could be maintained, managed or organised in such a way that the Golden Age may appear in the corporeal world. That's the Casual World & its 3 supreme elements - supreme air, supreme fire & supreme sky (supreme space) - could hold that cnnditions required for the Golden Age. But there is no any mention of 'the Casual World', 'the casual body, & 'the supreme elements' in Murlis & Avyakt Vanis.
Since it is a general belief that these same five elements are part of our present 'world' in the same form of earth, water, fire, air, sky; can you share some more about the 'elements of nature that get converted into 5 elements'? If those five are the same five elements how is it possible for them to get 'converted' into the same five elements?
It's write that these 5 elements (earth, water, air, fire & sky) are elements of the present world, but this does not mean that these 5 elements should be in the same conditions during the whole time period of the Kalpa. Then the question of conversion of the same elements into the same elements does not arise at all.
By 'convert' do you mean that the 'quality' of the five elements is 'altered' rather than that they become 'something else'? Since I am obviously confused I am wondering if my bafflement will be eased if I substitute the words 'altered in quality' for your word 'convert'.
Yes, your wordings are more accurate than my wordings. Thanks for suggestion.

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Re: Confused about the 5 elements

Post by new knowledge » 02 Dec 2007

sister bansy, now let's discuss about another aspect of purity. Purity is associated with celestrhal degrees. There is much more confusion between '16 celestial degrees' & 'unlimited celestial degrees'. Now let's discuss about Vishnu Party point of view about this issue.

According to Vishnu Party, when we are in the Supreme Home (Paramdham), we are unlimited celestial degrees complete & when we descend to the Casual World, in the Golden Age, we possess 16 celestial degrees & then as we descend to the Subtle Region & the Corporeal World, level of our celestial degrees decreases step by step.

For further discusion, let me ask you a question. What's the difference between 16 celestial degrees & unlimited celestial degrees? Does 16 celestial degrees mean 100% purity? And does unlimited celestial degrees mean more than 100% purity?
If '16 celestial degrees' mean 100% purity, then what's the use of the term 'unlimited celestial degrees'?

But according to Vishnu Party, both terms '16 celestial degrees' & 'unlimited celestial degrees' are valid terms; but first let me know your view about this issue, so that I could easily explain Vishnu Party view

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Post by bansy » 03 Dec 2007

Dear Brother new knowledge,

Please feel free to impart whatever insights you feel you wish to share to all. This forum is open floor, over time at least for me, I realise there are really no issues except the ones one wants to make or push forward. To pick up, take, carry, put down. However, this is all part of the natural spiritual progression in each one of us.

If you have a leading question, then you can also give your reply at the same time.

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Post by bansy » 02 Jan 2008

Dear new knowledge,

Actually I do not think you can get very far with discussions in the PBK section as Gyan is steeped in the Gita and Mahabharat.

However, could you enlightened us churnings from the Vishnu Party and how the Vedas and Upanishads play a greater part in the "truth". Please do this in a slow and steady way as I am sure many of us (esp myself :P) is quite new to this area. Do it at your own pace. The may be many who are just listening so if there are no responses, do not fret. It only takes a spark to light the fire.

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