Bridge between Shankar Party and Vishnu Party

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Post by new knowledge » 15 Aug 2007

arjun wrote:Om Shanti. When the Vishnu Party was formed in 1997/98, they had published a small book containing many Murli points, which in their opinion disproves Shankar or eliminates him. For the sake of those PBKs who were in a doubt after going through the book, ShivBaba (through Baba Veerendra Dev Dixit) clarified all the Murli points quoted in the book. Since video recording of Murli classes had not started in 1998, the clarification on the book of Vishnu Party was recorded in about 6-8 (I don't remember the exact number) Audio Cassettes. The Murli points that you have quoted have been clarified in those cassettes. If possible I will quote from those Audio Cassettes or request Baba for fresh answers.
Arjunbhai, have you got that Audio Cassettes? And have you requested Baba for fresh answers?

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Post by arjun » 15 Aug 2007

new_knowledge wrote:Arjunbhai, have you got that Audio Cassettes? And have you requested Baba for fresh answers?
Although I have those cassettes, it is very difficult to locate them and to note down the Q&A from those cassettes due to lack of time. So, I have requested the nimitt sisters to get those Q&A noted down in Hindi first so that it could be translated into English and posted on this forum. I also suggested to them that these Audio Cassettes could be uploaded on the website http://www.PBKs.info for everybody's benefit. The latter suggestion could be implemented faster than the former one.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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Re: Partial children of God

Post by new knowledge » 17 Aug 2007

Arjunbhai, please read the following quotation of new-world. Eageriously waiting for your reply. If you have time, please reply. Otherwise not necessary.
new world wrote:Murli describes Bharat as the most elevated & the most degraded. In Murli it is said that Bharat (the soul of Prajapita according to PBKs) was 16 degree complete at the beginning of the Golden Age, when he was in his the most elevated stage. BKs & PBKs believe that with the passage of time, dignity of Bharat (Prajapita or whoever he may be) decreases so that at the end of the Iron Age, when he is in his the most degraded stage, he becomes nearly degreeless (Kalaaheen), i.e, at the end of the Iron Age, he possesses only 2 or 3 (or less than 2 but greater than 0) celestial degrees.

In other words, he never achieves the stage of 0 celestial degree level (believed by BKs, PBKs). And BKs, PBKs also accept that with the practise of RajYoga, Bharat (or any other soul) regains his original level of complete 16 degrees from the lowest level of 2 or 3 (or less than 2 but greater than 0) degrees. Thus during the whole cycle of the World Drama, out of 16 degrees, Bharat looses approximately 13 or 14 (or more than 14 but not complete 16) celestial degrees. Then logicaly we have to accept that Bharat never ... never looses 2 or 3 celestial degrees, I e, 2 or 3 degrees are eternaly fed within him. But is this acceptable??? This is not my conclussion. I've derived it from BK, PBK consideration that Bharat (or any other soul) never achieves 0 celestial degree level.

In 7 day course of BKs we are taught that we receive the inheritence of peace, bliss, happiness etc from God (Shiv), so He is our Supreme Father. All of us believe that all our attributes - peace, bliss, happiness etc are inheritence from God Shiv which we receive from RajYoga meditation. Only God is self-enlightened & we have to totally depend on him for our enlightment. Then we have to receive each & every extent of peace, bliss, happiness etc only from God, as he is the only one source of peace, bliss, happiness etc.

Now peace, bliss, happiness etc are such attributes of any soul (including that of Bharat) that define celestial degrees of that soul. And according to BKs & PBKs, as the soul of Bharat(& any other soul) never achieves complete 0 celestial degree level, then this also mean that there is no complete 100% loss of peace, bliss, happiness etc within Bharat (& any other soul). Thus some extent of peace, bliss, happiness are fed eternally within the human soul (which we does not receive from God???).

Thus from this BK, PBK consideration, we come to the conclussion that though we have to depend on God Shiv to achieve peace, bliss, happiness etc, we are not completely dependent on Him to achive peace, bliss, happiness, as some extent of peace, bliss, happiness are eternaly fed within us. Thus we come to the contradictory conclussion that every extent of our attributes - peace, bliss, happiness etc - is not necessary to consider as the inheritance from God. & to some extent we are also self-enlihtened, as some extent of our attributes & celestial degrees are eternally fed within us (not my opinion, just concluded from BK, PBK considerations), i.e. some amount of peace, bliss, happiness, dignity & celestial degrees are not developed by the method of RajYoga, as these attributes are already & eternally fed within us like built-in program of a computer.

But this is contradictory to the belief that only God is self-enlightened & each & every attribute of us is inheritance from him. Then we become partial children of God, as some of our attributes are not inheritance from him. Are we really self-sufficient & self-enlightened to some extent or totally dependent on God????

I've got satisfactory explaination only in Vishnu Party philosophy in BKWSU cults. They believe that everything has emerged through or created by God. Then the human soul is completely his creation. So each & every attribute & every amount of celestial degres of any soul have emerged only through God Father (Dashrath Patel). There are no any trace of peace, bliss, happiness, dignity & celestial degrees fed within us, I e, there is no any built-in program within us. Everything in us has completely emerged through God (Dashrath Patel).

ONLY THEN WE CAN ACCEPT THAT WE ARE NOT PARTIAL CHILDREN OF THE GOD & ONLY HE IS SELF-ENLIGHTENED & WE HAVE TO TOTALLY DEPEND ON HIM TO DEVELOP OUR ATTRIBUTES & celestial DEGREES.

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Post by john » 17 Aug 2007

Does not enlightenment firstly come through knowledge?

ShivBaba (BK) gives knowledge that can transform a soul back to it's original state. If we souls had that knowledge ourselves then, yes, I believe we could do it ourselves. but that is the unique part of God Father to retain this knowledge that we lose/forget. In the Golden Age, we souls are natural, so the knowledge is not needed. In fact, it would be detrimental to sustaining a high state of being.

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Post by new knowledge » 17 Aug 2007

My bro John, can I request to read that article once more? What do you mean by 'original state of soul? And if by practising RajYoja, a soul (just like Bharat) achieves his highest elevated state of 16 celestial degrees from his the most degraded state of 2 or 3 (or less than 2 but greater than 0) celestial degrees (according to PBKs), then what's the source of remaining 2 or 3 degrees? Are they fed in soul eternally like built-in program of a computer?

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Post by john » 17 Aug 2007

new knowledge wrote:What do you mean by 'original state of soul?...
Yes, I believe all the qualities are permanent in the soul, but become merged, just like our memories of past life's are merged. So all qualities good and bad are always in the soul, but appear in different parts of the 5,000 world cycle.

The original state I am referring to is the state each soul is in whilst in Paramdham.

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Post by new knowledge » 17 Aug 2007

john wrote:Yes, I believe all the qualities are permanent in the soul, but become merged, just like our memories of past life's are merged. So all qualities good and bad are always in the soul, but appear in different parts of the 5,000 world cycle. The original state I am referring to is the state each soul is in whilst in Paramdham.
Though it is accepted that all 16 celestial degrees are always merged within us, even then my query remains constant. Then by practising RajYoga, 13 or 14 degrees out of 16 degrees are emerged. Then ... does this mean that remainin 2 or 3 celestial degrees are not emerged by practising RajYoga?

You're presenting contradictory statement. If all good & bad qualitids of a soul are ALWAYS merged in that soul, then the question of transformation of bad qualities in good qualities would not arise. Then do you mean that there are separate compartments of good & bad qualities in a soul?

What do you mean by Paramdham? - Is it a reality or just a concept, ie symbolic? Vishnu Party neither believe that Paramdham is a concept nor they believe in BK, PBK concept of Paramdham like 'dead silence world, where we souls live in unconscious state. Vishnu Party believe that initially we souls live in Paramdham with our FULL consciousness with unlimited celestial degrees. We souls with our all & all attributes & celestial degrees are created in Paramdham through the Supreme Father.

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Post by john » 17 Aug 2007

new knowledge wrote:Though it is accepted that all 16 celestial degrees are always merged within us, even then my query remains constant. Then by prectising RajYoga, 13 or 14 degrees out of 16 degrees are emerged. Then...,does this mean that remainin 2 or 3 celestial degrees are not emerged by practising RajYoga?)
Yes I mean some good qualities remain emerged throughout the cycle. Maybe those good remaining qualities are strengthened by Raj Yoga.
Then do you mean that there are separate compartments of good & bad qualities in a soul?
Yes, I mean to say in different compartments.
What do you mean by Paramdham? - Is it a reality or just a concept,
I believe it is a reality, a place of non material light beyond the physical universe.

As to what the state of a soul is,conscious or unconscious, I am unsure. Are there any Murli points that point towards the Vishnu Party view of Paramdham?

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Post by new knowledge » 17 Aug 2007

What do you mean by 'maybe'? And only 'some' & why not 'all' good qualities remain emerged throught The Cycle? What is included & what is not included in that 'some' quoted by you? Congratulations for revolutionary invention that a soul is like a cupboard having compartments

No my bro, there're no Murli proof about Vishnu Party point of view about Paramdham. Actually Vishnu Party knowledge is not completely derived from Murlis. We do not believe that the ultimate reality is hidden in Murlis. In the Yagya history of 70 years, nearly 13,000 Sakar Murlis have been delivered. But even then you're not sure where in Paramdham souls are conscious or unconscious. Then why don't you try to find the answer of your query out of Murli source?

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Post by john » 17 Aug 2007

new knowledge wrote:Yes, I mean to say in different compartments. Congratulations for revolutionary invention that a soul is like a cupboard having compartments.
Actually I was just going along with YOUR analogy, for sake of continuity of discussion, I did not mean it in a literal sense.
In the Yagya history of 70 years, nearly 13,000 Sakar Murlis have been delivered. But even then you're not sure where in Paramdham souls are conscious or unconscious. Then why don't you try to find the answer of your query out of Murli source?
Yes that is what I would like to do, research ALL Murlis, in case you haven't noticed that is part of what we are trying to do on the forum, make Murlis available.
If you or Vishnu Party can share their selection of Murlis that would be most useful.
What do you mean by 'maybe'? And only 'some' & why not 'all' good qualities remain emerged throught The Cycle? What is included & what is not included in that 'some' quoted by you?
It is different qualities for different souls that remain. All good qualities do not remain because the souls gradually get influenced by others bad qualities and not having right knowledge and full discrimination of what is right or wrong to do the soul takes on these qualities.

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Post by new knowledge » 20 Aug 2007

john wrote:Yes that is what I would like to do, research ALL Murlis, in case you haven't noticed that is part of what we are trying to do on the forum, make Murlis available. If you or Vishnu Party can share their selection of Murlis that would be most useful.
My dear bro John, please try to understand me. Even if you received complete set of Murlis, you will be unsatisfied. As long as BKWSU literature & other religious literature are not given equal importance, we cannot reach the ultimate reality.

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Post by john » 20 Aug 2007

new knowledge wrote:My dear bro John, please try to understand me.Even if you received complete set of Murlis, you will be unsatisfied.
Thank you for your concerned, but I am prepared to take the risk of being unsatisfied.

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Post by new knowledge » 20 Aug 2007

john wrote:I am prepared to take the risk of being unsatisfied.
Very good my dear dear bro John. Always be unsatisfied. This is proper way to reach to the REAL ShivBaba (Dashrath Patel). But as you are my brother, I request you not to depend totally on Murlis.

Currently I am reading 'BrahmSutra' a part of Vedas. Some quotathons from BrahmSutra:
  • 1) Yah pratyakshy upalabdh honewaala jo jad-chetnaatmak jagat hai, iska upaadaan aur nimittkaaran Brahm hee hai. (BrahmSutra: 1/1/2) meaning Brahm is the final cause & effect of the existing world of conscious-unconscious entities,
    2) Sarvashaktimaan, ParBrahma Parmeshwar kee jo para (Conscious) aur apara (unconscious) naamak do prakrutiyan hain, we usikee aphee shaktiyan hain, isliye usse abhinn hain (Bra.Su: 3/2/28 ). Wah in shaktiyon ka aashray hai, atah: inse bhinn bhee hai. ParBrahm jeev aur jad vargse sarvatha vilakshan aur uttam hai (Bra.Su.: 2/1/22) meaning omnipotent ParBrahm Parmeshwar, i.e. the God Father has two types of Creations named Para (living conscious world) & Apara (inertial unconscious world), which are His own powers, so not to be considered separate from Him. He sustains these (conscious & unconscious powers), and so ALSO SEPARATE FROM THEM. ParBrahm, i.e. the Supreme Father is totally extra-ordinary & superior to animate & inanimate entities etc.
    3) Wah ParBrahm Parmeshwar apnee uparyukt donon prakrutiyon ko lekar hee shrushtikaal mein jagat kee rachna karta hai aur pralaykaal mein in donon prakrutiyon ko apne mein vileen kar leta hai. (Bra.Su.: 2/1/17) meaning that ParBrahm Parmeshwar, i.e. the Supreme Father, with His both types of Creations stated above, generates the universe at the time of Generation & absorves within Himself both these Creations at the time of the Destruction.
My dear bro John here are only 3 quotations out of hundreds. And in any these are not less valuable than Murli points. You can see that with respect to some topics, Vedas & Shashras are much more ahead than Murlis.

I am poor in English, so the translation is subject to errors.

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Post by john » 20 Aug 2007

new knowledge wrote:My dear bro John here are only 3 quotations out of hundreds. And in any these are not less valuable than Murli points. You can see that with respect to some topics, Vedas & Shashras are much more ahead than Murlis.
Have you read all 13,000 Murli's yourself to verify that Vedas and Shastras are ahead?

Actually I am not asking you to prove or disprove Murlis, just whether you or Vishnu Party are prepared to share their supply. Can you tell me how many Sakar Murli's Vishnu Party have please?

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Post by new knowledge » 20 Aug 2007

john wrote:Have you read all 13,000 Murli's yourself to verify that Vedas and Shastras are ahead? Actually I am not asking you to prove or disprove Murlis, just whether you or Vishnu Party are prepared to share their supply. Can you tell me how many Sakar Murli's Vishnu Party have please?
My dear bro John, Vishnu Party neither have complete set of Sakar Murlis nor a complete set of Vedas & Shashras. Like Murlis, some versions of Vedas & Shashras have been destroyed. But it doesn't matter. Both Murlis-Avyakt Vanis as well as Vedas & Shashras are prepared through God rays & both have their own limitations, so neither Murlis nor Vedas & Shashras are direct Shrimat. But to interprete Godly knowledge easily, references are taken from both Murlis & Ved-Shashras.

As we have the understanding of Murlis & Ved-Shashras, so the Supreme Father also refers Murlis & Ved-Shashras while delivering Murlis. But this does not mean that Murlis & Ved-Shashras are foundations of Shrimat. When we will be matured in Godly knowledge, there will be no need of references from Murlis & Ved-Shashras. Shrimat is based on unlimited understanding, and Murlis & Ved-Shashras have limited sense. So the final base of Vishnu Party is direct Shrimat received by sitting before the Supreme Father (Dashrath Patel) face to face. Printed Murlis & Ved-Shashras are not Shrimat.

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