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ShivBaba - Older than the Oldest

Post by new world » 27 Jul 2007

Arjunbhai, please read these Murli points:
  • 1) "Is shrishti me sada kaayam to koi cheej hai nahin. Sada kaayam to ek ShivBaba hai" (Murli date. 2-1-68 ), meaning - In this world nothing is permanent (imperishable) for ever. Only ShivBaba (the Supreme Father) is permanent (imperishable) for ever.
    2) "Vaastav me sabhee se puraana to ShivBaba hai, parantu kisko maaloom nahin ... Puraane te puraanee cheej kounsee hui? Number one ShivBaba" (Murli date. 26-5-72), Page-3); meaning - Acctually ShivBaba (the Supreme Father) is the Oldest of all, but nobody knows ... Which is the Older than the Oldest thing? Number one ShivBaba.
Arjunbhai, here I've a question. Why ONLY ShivBaba is described as permanent for ever & Older than the Oldest ...?

Generally BKs & PBKs believe in the 'Eternal World Drama of Matter, Soul & God', i.e. anything including matter (mass + energy), all souls & God cannot be created nor be destroyed. Then logically we have to accept that everything - matter, souls & God - are permanent for ever & older than the oldest. Even BKs & PBKs believe that after Mukti (liberation) souls are neither destroyed nor merged into the Paramdham (Supreme Home) & nor mearged into the God but they remain into existance in dead silence in Paramdham.

In this sense every soul is permanent (imperishable) forever. And according to the scientific Law of Conservation of Mass & Energy, mass & energy can be converted into each other, but total amount of matter (mass + energy) remains constant, i.e. matter (mass + energy) can not be created nor be destroyed. In other words, science believe that the matter is permanent (imperishable) for ever. Then ... then why in Murlis is it said that ONLY ShivBaba is permanent for ever & older than the oldest? Why does the Murli believe in permanent existance of matter & souls? A great puzzle!!!

I've worked hard to solve this puzzle. But BKs & PBKs cannot satisfy me. My churning of knowledge about these Murli points goes in favour of Vishnu Party philosophy.

My churning of knowledge lead me to conclude that initially at the very first phase of evolution of Brahmaandas (Universes), there was only one God Father in existence & slowly souls, five elements of the corporeal world & everything emerged (created) through God in the next phases of evolution. And finally everything including souls & matter will merge into the God. This is my churning which is in accordance with Vishnu Party philosophy. This interpretation of 'the Origin of matter, souls & Universes' will prove as a bridge between Shankar Party & Vishnu Party.

But BKs & PBKs believe that even after Mukti (Liberation) every soul remains its existence in dead silence in the Supreme Home. They do not believe that after Mukti souls merge into Brahm Tatwa or into God. Thus for BKs & PBKs every soul is permanent for ever. Science also believe in the law of conservation of mass & energy, which states that mass & energy can be converted into each other, but total amount of matter (mass + energy) remains constant, i.e. matter is also permanent for ever.

But Murlis do not support eternal nature of matter & souls. Instead the Murlis states that ONLY ShivBaba is permanent forever & older than the oldest. Thus we have to develop an alternative perspective to BKs & PBKs in order to understand Murli statements. For the first time, Vishnu Party has dared to develop such an alternative perspective. Thanks to them.

I agree that the explaination of 'origin of everything through God' is not a new concept. In ancient religious literature like Vedas & Bible, it's described that God has created the world, the earth, the human being & everything by his will. But for the first time in the BKWSU history, Vishnu Party has presented these thoughts. So for us these thoughts are revolutionary, though they are not new to us.

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Seed - the oldest part of the tree

Post by new world » 28 Jul 2007

The Kalpa Tree (the Human Genealogical Tree) is like an inverted tree, the final seed of which is the Supreme Father (God Shiva).

Now it's the fact that the history of any tree begins with the plantation of the seed. Thus at the very first step of growth of the tree, there is only its seed in existance, without any other part of that tree, like roots, stem, branches, leaves, flowers etc. Then in the next stages of growth of the tree, other parts of that tree emerge step by step - first its roots come out, then the stem & them branches, leaves, flowers etc take their shape. Thus in the history of growth of the tree, its seed is the oldest part of the tree.

Similarly the history of the Kalpa Tree must have to start with its incorporeal seed - the Supreme Father (God Shiva). So in the Murli statements refered in the previous article, ShivBaba is described as Older than the Oldest thing (puraane te puraanee cheej).

Thus in the evolution of the Kalpa Tree, at the very first step, there was only the Supreme Father (the Seed of the Kalpa Tree) in existence. Then step by step verious souls, the material world, so many Brahmandas (Universes) & everything emerged through the Father (the Seed). IS IT POSSIBLE THAT ALL THIS EVOLUTION PROCESS TAKE PLACE ONLY IN 5,000 YEARS ...?

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Post by andrey » 28 Jul 2007

Dear brother,

In the Murli it is said that this drama is eternal, but it also has beginning middle and end. It is also a cycle. The seed does not come out of nothing, the seed comes out of the tree. The tree grows, produces a new seed and dies. The new seed grows produces a new tree that grows old, produces a new seed and dies. Looking like this one cannot say which is first, like the hen and egg story. There is a part in the history where both the new seed and the old three exist simultaneously. Where heaven is created in hell, which is the Confluence Age.

But since there is also an incorporeal - non material world where all souls go and from where they come. ShivBaba is said to be oldest because he comes first in the new world. He is permanent means he plays the all-round part of 5000 years in the Drama.

In the Drama souls, matter they are all eternal and imperishable, but if we take the history of the drama it has beginning, middle and end and new beginning, middle and end, and this is the way how it has been rotating Kalpa after Kalpa.

If it were that there used to be one seed - God and material world and everything came out of it, then the world will not be called eternal. There used to be a time when it did not exist. Souls will not be called eternal. There used to be a time when they did not exist. So you can judge whether whatever the Supreme Father teaches is right or whether whatever the human gurus teach is right.

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Post by arjun » 28 Jul 2007

new_world wrote:Arjunbhai, here I've a question. Why ONLY ShivBaba is described as permanent for ever & Older than the Oldest ...?
Dear new_world,

Om Shanti. Andrey Bhai has already answered you question. For us PBKs, as discussed earlier, the concept of Shiv and ShivBaba is slightly different in the context of the Murli points that you have quoted. I don't know if your concept of ShivBaba is an incorporeal God or the permanent Chariot of Shiv.
But Murlis do not support eternal nature of matter & souls. Instead the Murlis states that ONLY ShivBaba is permanent forever & older than the oldest.
There are hundreds of Murlis and Avyakt Vanis which say that the soul and the Supreme Soul are imperishable (avinashi). Just because Baba has stated that only ShivBaba is permanent, you wish to infer that all other souls are perishable, then it is your decision. I cannot say anything. Even the science that has been invented in the last stage of the Iron Age believes that matter is also eternal, then how can souls be perishable? Even science says that mass and energy are inter convertible. Mass cannot be broken into smaller particles than the electrons, protons and neutrons. So, how can souls be perishable?

Vishnu Party people have accepted on this forum that Dashrath Patel Bhai is God. So, was he always Dashrath Patel in the past and will he always remain Dashrath Patel in future? First the concept of God should be made clear. Whether Dashrath Patel is God or the soul present in his body is God? Did that soul enter into that body while it was in his mother's womb or did it enter at a later stage?
Thus in the evolution of the Kalpa Tree, at the very first step, there was only the Supreme Father (the Seed of the Kalpa Tree) in existance. Then step by step verious souls, the matterial world, so many Brahmaandas (Universes) & everything emerged through the Father (the Seed). IS IT POSSIBLE THAT ALL THIS EVOLUTION PROCESS TAKE PLACE ONLY IN 5,000 YEARS... ?
If your theory is to be believed like some of the theories of evolution that we studied in our childhood, then everything evolved from a small molecule. In that case the universe/world would have started billions and billions of years ago. Then there is no use quoting Murlis because all Murlis propagate the theory of 5000 years cycle. We have to make any one choice - 5000 years or billions of years!!!

Regards,
OGS, Arjun

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Egg first or hen first....?

Post by new world » 28 Jul 2007

Thanks brother Andrey for feedback. Every question borns with its solution. Then how can we say that the question "Egg first or hen first?" has no definite answer? The answer is 'egg'. God (the Seed) first or the world first? Definitely God come first. Have you gone through Bible? Bible also claims that God created the human being & the world by His will.

To consider the World Drama as eternal, it's not necessary to consider each & every element (souls, matter etc) of the world as eternal. In the beginning of the World Drama, i e, in the first step of evolution of the Kalpa Tree, the whole World Drama was composed of the activities of ONLY God Father (the Seed), as in the beginning, there was only God in existance. In this sense, though in the beginning nothing except God Father was in existance, the World Drama can be considered as eternal (& also cyclic).

Again the Kalpa Tree is not like an ordinary tree. The seed of the ordinary tree comes out through the tree & the tree comes out through its seed. But the final Seed (God Shiva) does not come out through the evolution process of the Kalpa Tree. God Father is the fhnal Seed - the Seed of all seeds. Only He is eternal, permanent for ever & Older than the Oldest. Why He is described as the Master Creator? He is the Creator & the souls, the Kalpa Tree & all-and-all are His creations. How can we believe that the Master Creator - the final Creator may be emerged through His creation....?

And brother Andrey, you states that only ShivBaba plays role for complete 5,000 years, so He is permanent for ever. Now if drama is of only of 5,000 years, then the earth, the sun also exist for complete 5,000 years. In this sense, the earth & the sun also becomes permanent for ever & older than the oldest. Then why Murli point says that ONLY ShivBaba is permanent for ever & Older than the Oldest thing?

Here the word 'thing' ('cheej' in Hindi) is very important, which includes conscious & material things. Thus the Murli point 'Which is the Older than the Oldest thing? Number one ShivBaba' means ShivBaba is the number one Older than the Oldest thing. Thus ShivBaba is Older than not only souls but also He is Older than the sun, the earth & the corporeal world.

You also states about 'dead silence' stage of souls in the Supreme Home. Now the term 'dead' is inertial & the term 'silence' is energetic & conscious. Then how these two contradictory terms may be combined??? Actually the phrase 'dead silence' is invalid.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 28 Jul 2007

As an outsiders, "Permanent" does not mean 'permanent'. Its less painful if you let go of rational attempt to understand it and accept that it means something else.

I had it explained to me as a mistranslation of a Hindi word for "appointed" or chosen. If so, I strongly recommend the PBKs to adopt this other meaning. Appointed or chosen work well.

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Post by andrey » 29 Jul 2007

Dear brother,

In the Murli it is said that, "the drama is eternal and I am also bound by the drama." If god were only in existence and everything has come out of him, then where did sin come out from? We don't accept the dualistic nature of god, that he gives both happiness and sorrow. We think he creates heaven, and human beings create hell

We understand God is just a different soul who is knowledgeful about the beginning, middle and end of the drama. Creation we understand as transformation of souls, through which matter is automatically transformed.

Dear brother ex-l,

This term "permanent" is also often used in comparison to "temporary" i.e. Chariot. It may also mean permanent.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 29 Jul 2007

andrey wrote:This term "permanent" is also often used in comparison to "temporary" i.e. Chariot. It may also mean permanent.
As I said, its utterly inane (which means void of sense or intelligence) andrey and should be dropped as soon as possible. Even if you believe in the PBK theology, and we have not even got down to concrete evidence of Sevak Ram/Shewkaram's existence yet, both are "temporary chariots".

I wish you guys would get over the "our Chariot is better than your Chariot" mentality ...

He may be "permanent" if you refer to his alleged earthly existence for the full 5,000 Years Cycle whilst Lekhraj Kirpalani disappears off for a few years but still you should not attach it his temporary chariotship.

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Post by new world » 29 Jul 2007

Arjunbhai, the terms ShivBaba, Shiv, RamShivbaba & ShivBap are always controversial in the BKWSU circle. Then to whome you consider that ShivBaba who is described as permanent forever & older than the oldest in the Murli points refered in the previous article?

Is the soul of Ram that ShivBaba? PBKs believe that the soul of Ram takes complete 84 births, i e, he is present for complete 5,000 years of cyclic World Drama. But they also believe that, like any other soul, the soul of Ram also goes to the Supreme Home for few seconds; in other words, Ram is absent from the World Drama for few second. Then how can we say that the soul of Ram is 'permanent for ever'? 'Permanent for ever' means to be in existance at every point of time & being absent from the World Drama for few seconds, the soul of Ram is not permanent for ever.

Now suppose that the total period of existance of a soul includes the time period of the role played by that soul in one cycle of the World Drama & the time period that soul lives in the Supreme Home in dead silence. Then each & every soul becomes permanent for ever & older than the oldest, as each & every soul mentains its existance for the complete cycle of the World Drama, either in the form of 'dead silence' stage in Supreme Home or as an actor on the stage of the eternal World Drama.

Then why ... why ONLY ShivBaba is called as permanent for ever & older than the oldest??? Both the soul of Ram & incorporeal Shiv goes to the Supreme Home (according to BKs & PBKs). Then who is this ShivBaba permanent for ever & how is He permanent for ever?

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Post by andrey » 29 Jul 2007

Dear brother ex-l

The context is that when the supreme Father comes, he has only one child. It is said God is one and so his child will be also one. This usage is more for to underline the nature of his coming, that he comes and adopts one Chariot, that he has one form. It is to make less confusing for people the "this and that Chariot" situation. The impresion one can be left with that he uses many chariots has to diminish because one's mind will start wondering in favour for the idea that he has only one appointed, chosen, permanent or fixed meaning predetermined Chariot through which he reveals to the world. When one comes to know then one can start searching for it, and ones attention can be drawn. And there is no right to point to some past character. It is said we should not remember this Brahma (Brahma Baba).

Dear brother new world,

This permanent may mean that he is permanent in his religion. It is said that truth is imperishable. It is to draw the comparison that only one is permanent in his religion, fixed in his position, stable in faith and all the rest circle more or less in the cycle of the unlimited birth and death of gaining and losing faith.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 29 Jul 2007

We are headed way off topic again and so I am not going to pursue this. Its still garbage. Complete monkey puzzle tree-style logic. If you cant see that, then the scrambling of your brain has been successful. I cant remember any clear and direct Murli quotes that say, "God only has one child". Its a shame that Virendra Dev Dixit cant be content merely with being a good BK philosopher ... or perhaps he is under the influence of some malevolent or deluded ghost.

And the only concrete evidence we have of a Shewakram being involved was that he was on the side of the Anti Party.

I see that there has been listed another book about that time produced by the Anti Party themselves. It is called ;
  • "Om Mandli : a true authenticated story about its activities being a reply to 'Is This Justice'" by the Anti Om Mandli Committee, Hyderabad, 1940.
Do the PBKs have a copy?

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Complete monkey puzzle tree-style logic

Post by abrahma kumar » 29 Jul 2007

Talk about laugh! Whoops and hoots and peals of laughter. An unrestrained wheeze. Belly-achingly comforting Belly-fulls of laughter. This sort of laughter if ever you heard it. It is a real treat for children from 0 to 99 :P.

But, now that we have grown up we know that not all skin-teeth is laugh!

So PBKs, do you have a copy?

Thank you

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Post by arjun » 29 Jul 2007

new_world wrote:Then why ... why ONLY ShivBaba is called as permanent for ever & older than the oldest??? Both the soul of Ram & incorporeal Shiv goes to the Supreme Home (according to BKs & PBKs). Then who is this ShivBaba permanent for ever & how is He permanent for ever?
The incorporeal Father Shiv does not come in the cycle of birth and death at all. He is forever pure. He never becomes impure. So, He cannot come in the comparison of old, older, oldest. It is the remaining human souls which can be compared as new, old, older, oldest etc. So, among those remaining souls, the soul of Ram is the oldest.

If you say that incorporeal Shiv is permanent, then that way all the souls are permanent. None of the souls ever gets destroyed. So, how will you decide which is the oldest?

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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About: Complete monkey puzzle tree-style logic

Post by abrahma kumar » 29 Jul 2007

Yes folks, if you care read the above carefully and as you read observe the following:

1. Arjun Bhai, the human being, gets disappeared. Where has he gone?

2. Note too the RE-citation of the programmed text. With each Re-citation the speaker is reaffirming a TRUTH that they hold to be self-evident. (But this conviction is based on and reflects nothing more than the extent to which the speaker desires to remain programmed, has been programmed and gets feelings of being rewarded by the program )

3. Note too that after the RE-citation of the programmed text the speaker asks questions based opon assertions made in the self same RE-citation. Through this: (A) The Program gets broadcast; (B) The speakers programming is reinforced; and (C) The questions often represent a challenge to or an attempt to establish the measure of YOUR OWN inculcation of the programming.

To borrow a snippet from ex-l:
Complete monkey puzzle tree-style logic
abek

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Post by fluffy bunny » 29 Jul 2007

arjun wrote:If you say that incorporeal Shiv is permanent, then that way all the souls are permanent. None of the souls ever gets destroyed. So, how will you decide which is the oldest?
My guess new_world was calling Virendra Dev Dixit ShivBaba. The usual confusion over names we try to avoid.

Please don't get me wrong. I genuinely think that it would be great news if solid, lokik evidence was produced to confirm Sevak Ram's existence. Faith becomes an obstacle to knowledge. If I was a PBK, I would go and find out, track down lokik relatives, find old photos and document their stories. I am sure it would tie down a lot of loose ends.

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