Too many Shivas?

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john
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Too many Shivas?

Post by john » 23 May 2007

I am wondering why so many chariots and incarnations of Shiva are popping up within the BK world as started by Lekhraj Kirpalani? They cannot all be genuine, will the real Shiva please stand up?
  • Do we have to get into the Indian mindset to understand why this is happening.
    What are the benefits of someone calling themselves a Chariot or incarnation of Shiva.
    Is it for financial gain, fame, ego, delusion, power struggles, what is going on in India that we in the west cannot see?
    How many followers does each Chariot or incarnation have?
Chariots of Shiva are indeed becoming ten a penny.

Maybe we could have a new part of the forum called 'Odds and Sods' for the lesser known chariots with fewer followers.

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Post by sparkal » 25 May 2007

One question I would like to ask right now is: Is Shiva free? Is Shiva free to go between worlds?, among souls?

The opposite might be: Is Shiva like a whale? Blissfully ignorant and passive to the agenda of hunter predator types who may abuse Shiva's powers? Would Shiva give this impression even to such a captor as part of Shiva's agenda?

Everything has become scatty and clouded. Which itself could be part of Shiva's agenda. If Shiva is not there, then the Children of Shiva will have to take over the ship and grow and mature into the fathers shoes. How else is Shiva going to get some people moving? One thing is for sure, Shiva came to do a job, and "thy will be done".


Hold on, I think I have a message coming through, yes ... yes ... it is happening, I am a Chariot. Now, how can I capitalize on it? People will worship me and ... and ... and ... :roll:.

As time goes on, Shiva may use many as instruments, but Chariot? That is something else, and does not mean: Chariot = the most elevated soul, as we know, don't we?

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Post by andrey » 27 May 2007

Dear brother John,

It is said that, "when the true diamond becomes present immediately false diamonds get ready in the market". I think at the time of Lekhraj Kirpalani there were not many incarnations of Shiva. They have multiplied, especially after Virendra Dev Dixit. Many have taken training from him, and forget to whom they wrote a letter of faith to. "He makes others similar to himself", is it not?

It is said that, "first comes the knowledge, then the giver of knowledge". There is no need for someone to say, "I am Shiva". In the Murli it is said that, "the one who says he is God is the devil". So we have our intellect to judge the knowledge that is given. Its the only way to recognize.

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Post by john » 27 May 2007

andrey wrote:It is said that, "first comes the knowledge, then the giver of knowledge". There is no need for someone to say, "I am Shiva". In the Murli it is said that, "the one who says he is God is the devil". So we have our intellect to judge the knowledge that is given. Its the only way to recognize.
Even if it is not said directly by Virendra Dev Dixit that, "I am the Chariot of Shiva, I will become ShivBaba", it is inferred. In Murli (1965-1969), Brahma Baba always made it clear that it was God Father Shiva doing everything and he was just a vessel. Virendra Dev Dixit by inference takes a lot of the credit, sometimes even to the point that Shiva is just in the background. This is the one thing I find difficult in accepting in Advance Knowledge.

Andrey Bhai if you do care to answer my point, can you please be concise and not snake around here and there with other irrelevant points? Otherwise it gets dificult to take you seriously. It is only respectful, thank you.

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Post by sparkal » 28 May 2007

Would anyone like to have a bash at estimating how many vessels of Shiva are currently in existence expounding Gods knowledge to the world?

And, how do we know that Andrey is not the latest incarnation of Shiva? :P

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Post by andrey » 30 May 2007

Dear brother John,

If in the advance knowledge things are presented in specific way then we think it is ShivBaba who presents them like this. If he puts the child in front then the child has to be in front, somethimes also there are very severe critics. It is just that the knowlegde is more sharp. To say that Shiva is put on the back is only a matter of opinion. However, if you already know who is god, how he works and all the information regarding the matter, you should also give His introduction to others. I mean we start to study from the ignorant point of view and come to know, then we judge what we accept and what not. For me, the advance knowledge remains totally acceptable. I have not heard other's knowledge and there is no need to if you are content with what you have.

Yes, there are really many Gods. For the Vishnu Party, God is their Vishnu. For BKs, God comes in Gulzar Dadi. Others have other gods. For the PBKs, it is ShivBaba (the soul of Shiva in the body of Shankar). Who and when has said that there should be one God? Yes, all think that, "my God is the god of all, mine is only the true one". It is said truth is only one and falsehood is of many different types.

Still there is no legal, or any other law, to forbid calling oneself God, should we be concerned. I mean the problem disappears if we ourselves have one God. The problem is that if God is the soul of Shiva in the Body of BB then ... this is in the past. We need him now do we not? So we also have him now in one form? To know who is the true one, automatically all others become false. We don't have to stumble here and there.

I believe those who accept this one form are basically right, no matter that they may be sometimes wrong. Those who do not accept are basically wrong, no matter that they may sometimes make right statements. Truth comes from only One and is one, everything is true, not only some things. Truth is not a compilation - someting from here, something from there.

Baba via Virendra Dev Dixit says "Those who remember me, I remember them. Others who remember others, do not have interest in me, they may go wherever their heart pulls them."

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Post by john » 31 May 2007

andrey wrote:I believe those who accept this one form are basically right, no matter that they may be sometimes wrong. Those who do not accept are basically wrong, no matter that they may sometimes make right statements.
Herein lies the crux of your attitude to others, you think what you know is right, even though your understanding of it is very limited, because you believe it comes from an unlimited source, you also consider your understanding to be as such ... unlimited.

Your understanding is limited, yet you take it to be unlimited, therefore anyone speaking outside your limits is put down by you as obviously wrong, purely because it doesn't fit your limited acceptable criteria.

When you are proved to be wrong the old 'I am a chosen one and therefore right, even when shown to be wrong' creeps out. It is a typical response from a religious person to save face when shown to be wrong in a debate.

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Post by andrey » 01 Jun 2007

Dear brother,

We don't discuss to prove one another right or wrong. What is the aim of the knowledge, it is to give the introduction of the Father.

Of course it matters if one know him, accept him or not. In the Murli it is said "Do you know Prajapita, he is also your Father. It is just that you don't know". This is the main thing. If we fail in this main thing then what if we can say two-three points of knowledge perfectly, what is the benefit? This knowledge is not for discussion, but to recognise the Father and surrender to him, to live with the consciouness that there is and i have a spiritual Father, we are spiritual brothers etc.

Then why do you make it personal again and again? If you have to say something regarding the topic, please do. Where is the need to comment on people?

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Post by john » 02 Jun 2007

andrey wrote:This knowledge is not for discussion,
Then why come here to discuss it?
We don't discuss to prove one another right or wrong.
True, we discuss to determine whether Murli is understood rightly or wrongly and then it's up to the individual to decide for themselves. So why do you have to infer that someone who doesn't see it the same way as you is from a lesser religion? To me that is not discussing from a point of understanding and brotherhood, but from a point of ego.
This is the main thing, If we fail in this main thing then what if we can say two -three poinf of knowledge perfectly, what is the benefit.
Who are you to determine whether someone has failed in this 'one' thing? All you can really determine is whether someone agrees with you or not. Who's to say you haven't failed in this? yet you always try and stick yourself on the side of righteousness.

Maybe you are right in all your understandings and that is very nice for you, but to have an attitude of 'why cannot you dimheads see the light as I can' is both immature and bad mannered.

AndreyBhai, you have an uncanny knack of drawing a lot of a certain type of attention to yourself. It does beg the question, why?

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Post by andrey » 02 Jun 2007

Dear brother,

It is not a matter of my understanding because i have only learned what i say like a parrot.

Of course, i mix from myself as trying to understand and explain, but I believe that there is only one right understanding or interpretation of the Murli, and this is not my understanding but the understanding that the one who i believe is ShivBaba teaches. Just see how many interpretations there are on any points here on the forum. I don't at all think that when i get the Murli i will undertsand it in the right way. First time i studied the Murli i did as Bhakti. I was not understanding anything. Now after the advanced knowledge many things become clear. Then every time i think i already know everything, when i watch a VCD i learn 6-10 new points. What i would like to say is that i believe there can be too many Shivas externally, but in fact there is only one Shiva, he comes in a body and one can learn from him.

Please accept it very personally as if when someone has watched a nice film, read a nice book and say to his friends, you should see this, read this, because it is always better that one studies himself. It is only about this matter.

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Post by john » 02 Jun 2007

andrey wrote:Please accept it very personally as if when someone has watched a nice film, read a nice book and say to his friends, you should see this, read this, because it is always better that one studies himself. It is only about this matter.
OK.

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Post by sparkal » 03 Jun 2007

The one who does and does through others speaks through a body? Seems likely. What if Shiva was to start using a number of chariots? Would they all argue that THEY are the chosen one?

The one who does and does through others may do through many as time goes on. We will need a bigger forum to deal with them all claiming to be THE Chariot/instrument. What if they all get a forum each?

When there is a danger of "truth" breaking out, one truth, then perhaps it is time to create many truths so that people lose faith in one "truth" and become more open minded, ready to receive, err the truth.

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The one who does and does through others

Post by joel » 04 Jun 2007

sparkal wrote:The one who does and does through others speaks through a body? Seems likely. What if Shiva was to start using a number of chariots? Would they all argue that THEY are the chosen one? ... When there is a danger of "truth" breaking out, one truth, then perhaps it is time to create many truths so that people lose faith in one "truth" and become more open minded, ready to receive, err the truth.
People can readily create 'false' memories to satisfy therapists unspoken expectations. When I first came to BK 'knowledge' in 1981, we were all trying to go into trance every Thursday. We all imagined as best as we could, and afterward narrated our experiences. Undoubtedly someone especially creative could 'go all the way' or 'shoot the moon' claiming direct access to purportedly infallible divine authority. That is the road Heidi Fittkau went. She knew she could do it as well as the others. I sympathized because I tried to write my own Murlis right from the beginning.

Which is funny, when you think about it. You tell people, "you can have an accurate, intimate connection with God." Then you wonder what you can do about all the people around who claim to be able to communicate directly with God.

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Post by sparkal » 06 Jun 2007

We can be good people living simple lives without being an instrument for God. Not everyone can play this role(s), besides, being such means that people would start writing about you on the net, and all that worship at your feet?

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Re: Too many Shivas?

Post by mitra » 07 Jun 2007

john wrote:I am wondering why so many chariots and incarnations of Shiva are popping up within the BK world as started by Lekhraj Kirpalani? They cannot all be genuine, will the real Shiva please stand up.
It is part of the life. Here we are establishing a different religion - the FIRST religion. If you look at the history you can see that in every religion there are sub-parts started from the main branch. Here also same is the case.

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