A few questions for 'teachers' of the 7 Day Course

DEDICATED to BKs.
For those involved with the Brahma Kumaris, to discuss issues about the BKWSU in a free and open manner.
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john
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Post by john » 10 Aug 2007

Hi BKT-iPit

Thanks for the frank replies.
  • At what point did you become aware that BrahmaBaba considered himself as God?
    Were you ever told at what point Brahma realised he wasn't God?
    Have you heard about the 'Golden Circle', the group which is supposed to have been mediums of ShivBaba before Brahma Baba was?
BKT-iPit wrote:As I said, I am now learning that he may actually have said something quite specific about 1976.
On one of the original pictures (I think the Lakshmi-Narayan one) which was printed in 1966, there is a description of how Destruction is to take place in ten years time, i.e. 1976. I've heard Brahmababa was so convinced of this that he said he would give away all the Yagya money if it did not happen.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 10 Aug 2007

I know that the Ladder had the "10 years to Destruction" line. I do not know if Lakshmi and Narayan did.

Original Murlis with dates are scattered around the forum and site. The PBKs would have them at hand again. It would take checking against those. I am starting to think the Leadership's attitude is, "So what? Destruction did not happen. We changed it. We don't need to explain or tell anyone. We still have the followers' mind. What are you going to do about it?"

For me its important (why does the Ocean of Truth lie, not know or make mistakes?) but bit like the discussion on democracy within the BKWSU. Its almost pointless pursuing it on its own, because the leadership could and do change whatever they want and the sheep still follow them. Why? Mostly on the authority of having Bap-Dada/Lekhraj Kirpalani turn up a few times a year and calling it God. And, may be, because they have the show of worldly power. Humans like to be led and adopt to other tribes if conquered. They call it "Stockholm Syndrome".

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Post by john » 10 Aug 2007

ex-l wrote:I know that the Ladder had the "10 years to Destruction" line. I do not know if Lakshmi and Narayan did.
Quote From the Lakshmi and Narayan picture.
Corruption, Irreligiousness, Unrighteousness, Vices, insolvency and suffering will come to an end in Bharat within 10 years and Golden Aged Deity-world-Sovereignity of Shri Lakshmi and Shri Narayan will come to be re-established soon after the forth-coming huge world destruction.

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Post by bkti-pit » 11 Aug 2007

john wrote:At what point did you become aware that BrahmaBaba considered himself as God?
Were you ever told at what point Brahma realised he wasn't God?
Have you heard about the 'Golden Circle', the group which is supposed to have been mediums of ShivBaba before Brahma Baba was?
I first heard about it from a BK friend who heard it from Dada Anand Kishore in a general class in Om Shanti Bhawan, some 15 years ago. I then heard it myself from the same Anand Kishore a few years later and I have a faint memory of hearing it more recently from some other senior, possibly Brij Mohan.

I had heard from someone that one day Shiv Baba came into a young kumari and explained to Brahma Baba what had been happening. I don't remember having been told when this would have happened but I always thought it was just a few years after the establishment of the Yagya. I have heard a few other stories of Shiv Baba coming into a few other ones but never heard of the Golden Circle nor that he had come into others before he came in Dada Lekraj.

Thanks for the information on the picture of L/N. Can it be made available on this site?
ex-l wrote:I am not trying to destroy your faith, I will attempt to destroy false idols. So please remember that I am not directing it personally at you, although I am afraid I might be challenging at times. Destroying falsehood, and letting those that live off it fall, would be the path if knowledge to me.
I appreciate your honesty and your respectful tone and do not feel threatened in any way. I want truth and I don't mind being challenged and having to re-evaluate and shift my positions.

At his point I am interested to find out more about the Yagya's falsification of its own history. I have limited time to spare looking all over this site so this journey may be lengthy but it should be exciting. Thanks for the few hints!

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Post by fluffy bunny » 11 Aug 2007

BKTi-Pit wrote:Thanks for the information on the picture of L/N. Can it be made available on this site?
We are going to start cataloguing stuff better soon ... try the Encyclopedia. There is one here; Lakshmi and Narayan

That one actually says "9 Years" and is clearly dated June 1967.

This is what kills me Ti-Pit. The middle management warbles, "Baba has given no specific date for Destruction" to stop BKs from think and to give to non-BKs as an answer but how more specific do you need ... one year out of 5,000. The older Trees and Cycles etc are in the download section. There it says clearly says Destruction will happen "within a year or so" and is dated 1949.

I am utterly sure that the leadership; Nirwair, Shah, Janki, Prakashmani and the rest, all thought that they would never get caught on this. These older images and older Murlis have all been removed from the "official" version of their history. The Vishwa Ratan book illustrates this without any fear of contradiction. The effect of 1976, when loads of BKs left has been erased from individuals memories. Various Wings basically collapsed. This is all hidden and the same yukti used to keep people strung alone ... two years .. two years they used to say ... always just around the corner.

Are you asking yet, why did they destroy the evidence of the old Divine Decrees and Murlis from before 1965? I would love to have a specific answer as to how and when Shiva was introduced into Gyan and an official statement regarding which part of the story was true and which parts were fictional BEFORE the Seniors died off and leave only the myths.

Truth cannot be built on falsehoods, lies and modern mythology. If you cant hear the passionate Gyani speaking out there, rather than the accused "defamer", what more can I say?

I made life decisions based on these Shrimats. So did many others ruining many years of their lives. Had I know of the history of revisions, prophetic failures and re-writes, then I absolutely and certainly would have made different life decisions. I am proud of myself for following my intuitions and walking away from these people, refusing to allow them to have power over me. I look at them now, in my minds eye, and see them living like Royalty but as a closed shop, speaking together in a language I cannot understand, making decisions about how much of the truth I am allowed to know and I think.

Please understand that, in my opinion, to say nothing or make ambiguous statements and even not to ask questions which you know should be asked is to deceive just as much as to repeat something outrightly honest. I am calling on their personal sense of integrity and the responsibility that goes along with status and position in other's eyes.

I know that "96%" of BKs are good people and mean the best. I just feel that they have been led around like cows (as Lekhraj Kirpalani used to call them) with rings in their noses by those false farmers that have usurped, in my opinion, the Good Cowherd. I am knowing and specifically calling this a serious dishonesty because of the seriousness of the offence and I think it has been conscious on their parts.

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Post by bkti-pit » 11 Aug 2007

Many thanks ex-l! This is very useful, a very solid evidence. I'll definitely share that around.

I would gladly share how I feel about it but don't think this thread is the right place since it started as questions for BK teachers. So where can I take this conversation?

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Post by fluffy bunny » 11 Aug 2007

BKTi-Pit wrote:I would gladly share how I feel about it but don't think this thread is the right place since it started as questions for BK teachers. So where can I take this conversation?
I think Newcomers forum might be a good place to introduce yourself and your feelings. A few members have started their own threads in their own forums, e.g. BK or ex-BK.

There are the personal blogs (Userpages) but those tend to be quiet and not visited to often. They do however offer a place to make "private" notes for yourself that do not become buried by other discussion and you can link to them from here.

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in love with blind faith

Post by alladin » 11 Aug 2007

In case any Forum reader, or student, was to print some of these posts and show them to a teacher or senior asking for clarifications, I am pretty sure they would dismiss the entire matter saying that, "we are not supposed to be date or number conscious: it distracts us from our real efforts". Or they 'd say that "God hasn't really told us everything yet, things will be eventually revealed exactly, hang on, wait and see". A more sophisticated answer is that, "God's words shouldn't be taken literally".

They always have some lame excuse. The problem is that people, I suppose we also were, at least for some period of time, mesmerized. They want to believe, to the extent that they will buy it, as nonsensical as it is, set aside doubts and carry on. This is what concerns me the most, at the moment. Well, I suppose when it comes to metaphysics, super natural and religions, blind faith is the foundation. Stronger than evidence and practical examples.

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Re: in love with blind faith

Post by fluffy bunny » 11 Aug 2007

alladin wrote:In case any Forum reader, or student, was to print some of these posts and show them to a teacher or senior asking for clarifications, I am pretty sure they would dismiss the entire matter saying that, "we are not supposed to be date or number conscious"
I forgot those epithets but you are entirely correct. It is, ultimately, a subtle put downand part of the consistent put down that is used to limit thought and expression with the Brahma Kumaris. A controlling message that says, "if you push on further you headed into the wrong and we will remove our approval".

"Date-conscious", "number-conscious" ... Yes, I have heard it all in another country and another time. The center-in-charges hear the middle-management saying and copy them, the middle-management heard the SS saying and copied them. So the meme travels like a virus unchallenged across borders.

"Ho ... ho ... ho ...", the big stick is pulled out, "Baba says, don't be date conscious little BK" ... or their will be no toli and loving gazes before bed. Hence, each generation of newcomers are duped ... say pass it on to the next!

Why not just tell the truth, "I don't know", and admit up to all the failed predictions?

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Post by bkti-pit » 12 Aug 2007

ex-l wrote:Truth cannot be built on falsehoods, lies and modern mythology. If you cant hear the passionate Gyani speaking out there, rather than the accused "defamer", what more can I say?
and
I think Newcomers forum might be a good place to introduce yourself and your feelings.
I had already recognized the passionate Gyani in you and I totally agree with your statement on truth.

I glanced at the Newcomers forum and I think it is a good place. I don't have a lot of free time and I am a slow writer so it may take me a while to articulate the whole thing but I can start with a first post to introduce myself. It will be entitled: Feelings of a newcomer. Sorry, I don't know how to create links.

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thinking about belittling

Post by alladin » 12 Aug 2007

Just thank you vvvv much to ex-l for opening up even more my mind to the mechanism of belittling and control SS or any BK senior on our consciousness in the days of BK childhood especially. It becomes a foundation and states clearly what one's status is.. They still try to do that with me even now, even though they get no success!!
The center-in-charges hear the middle-management saying and copy them, the middle-management heard the SS saying and copied them. So the meme travels like a virus unchallenged across borders.
Humans seem very proficient at copying - maybe it's an ape sanskar! - especialy bully-like manners. If someone does not accept their games and lame excuses or vague predictions and explanations, and is wise enough to leave at an early stage, they will say, "it was not in his fortune!".

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Post by fluffy bunny » 12 Aug 2007

25/10/69 - The final destruction of the whole world takes place within 6 years. Those who tell it to be 7 years have their position reduced." (6 years from 25/10/69 comes to 1975/76)

05/11/70 - From this journey, it is 5 years for destruction."(5 years from 5/11/70 comes to 1975/76)

03/02/71 - Within 5 years, the whole work should be completed."(5 years from 3/2/71 comes to 1975/76)

09/09/72 - Even those who are rich, even they live hardly for 3-4 years more." (3-4 years will come to 1975/76)

04/02/74 - From 10 years (of the declaration), only 2 years are left. Soon Kaliyug has come to an end. The drama is certain." (2 years will fall in 1976)

09/11/74 - Rest, 2 years is left over. Don't think that it will become 3 years. It may become one year but it can never become 3 years." (2 years will come in 1976)

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Post by bkti-pit » 13 Aug 2007

Dear ex-1,

It is obvious from these quotes that this thing of Destruction to happen in 1976 is not just some BKs' churning but clearly supported by Avyakt BapDada himself.

What amazes me is that I used to have the Avyakt Murlis booklets for some of those years and I don't remember any of those lines. Is it a lack of attention from my side or were those lines or entire Murlis edited out? I'll see if I can get hold of a copy of some of them and if so I'll check it out. If it appears that it has been edited out, what proof do we have of this?

If you check out my profile you can see that I've put "I want the truth" as my philosophy.

Thanks a lot for your cooperation!

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Post by fluffy bunny » 13 Aug 2007

And, if we accept the original posters which we have on site saying 1950 as having been created under his guidance, which we know they were, Brahma Baba as well.

Of course, we have to bear in mind that until some point after 1949, there was no mention of Shiva in the Yagya ... an even more important issue. How and when was he introduced?

Generally, the SS have denied the 1976 issue either by, as you saw, dismissing it as BKs' churning or coming out with some politician's line like, "having no recollection of those specific quotes". Individual's still have original copies. The failure also had repercussions in the West, because Western service had started by then. In India there were large scale exoduses of BK leavings. If Seniors deny it, I would take that as a significant lack of integrity and honesty on their behalf.

The 1950 prediction is a new controversy that has just arisen following the discovery of those original posters, the creation of which has been covered up and falsified in Vishwa Ratan's book which Nirwair and the rest of them in Abu went along with. earlier books also show that they thought WWII was it ... which is all pretty crazy, and indicates the state of their mind, as at that point only 300 of them (the Divine Ones) were at that point "saved".

I am glad someone else is excited by these revelation.

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Post by john » 13 Aug 2007

BKTi-Pit wrote:What amazes me is that I used to have the Avyakt Murlis booklets for some of those years and I don't remember any of those lines. Is it a lack of attention from my side or were those lines or entire Murlis edited out?
I think they have been taken out.

This has become part of the quest of the forum to find out exactly in what way the Murlis have been edited and why. The only excuse I've heard so far is that the bits removed were irrelevant and were basically ShivBaba waffling on to individuals. It appears many BKs were/are quite happy to go along with this reason, without really checking for themselves. Such is the power of the Seniors' control.

In the old ex-BK-Chat forum there was a member with the nickname 'Hanuman' who was around at Madhuban in 1976. He confirmed that the BKs at the time were very serious about the 1976 date and after that a lot of BKs lost their faith and left.

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