Why nobody wants to discuss this biggest test?

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master creator
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Why nobody wants to discuss this biggest test?

Post by master creator » 01 Oct 2007

Dear divine brothers & sisters,

Om Shanti,

Firstly thanks for a platform where I can discuss this serious issue of my BK life ...!

Baba says lust is the only test and is the biggest test that we have to face. Even though it is so important to conquer lust no body is willing to talk openly about it. I want to initiate it. I need your help to guide me based on your experience. I understand some of the souls on this forum are very senior and surrendered BK's or ex-BKs please advise what I should do.

It becomes OK in between and then it comes up again ... the lustful thoughts, feelings etc...Last few days I am receiving several storms of Maya (lust) and I am failing - i.e. I am not able to control those thoughts and my sense organs are deceiving me. Fantasies continue like anything. Sometimes I think if there is some medicine which I can eat and then atleast the sensual organs can stop reacting to those fantasies. But I do not know if there is any such thing available! To really apply that full stop!!!

I feel so guilty - sometimes I am not able to face Baba :oops: and also feel like comitting suicide but I know it is not the solution and hence I do not do it and hence I am still alive typing this story of mine :cry:.

When those storms come :shock: frankly speaking I tend to enjoy those thoughts ... Inspite of knowing that it is wrong I am not able to stop them (apply break) and it continues... and once you allow it ... it will be there for several hours until you really really have to put a full stop. Its like Maya boxing on each and every part of your body ... ouch!

I am badly beaten up by Maya ... can someone please prescribe any ointment. I understand things like churning knowledge, doing Yoga, reading books can help ... but I want to practically really get rid of this. I also understand that this is part of the sanskar of several births and its showing up ... but how can I get rid of this?

Brothers and sisters ... please help based on your experiences ... I am not able to discuss this issue with anyone else ... If I go and tell this to my centre in-charge I am not sure what I will be taken as ... as If I am the only one who is facing this issue. Its so funny ... everyone knows that this is the biggest test and even Baba says in Murli but still there is no one with whom I can discuss this issue and seek guidance. Hence I approach this forum for appropriate guidance on this matter of conquering lust and lustful thoughts and feelings.

I really thank everyone on this forum in advance for their contributions. I really want to practise celibacy in 100% of its meaning!

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Post by pilatus » 01 Oct 2007

Dear master creator,

By way of background I'd like to be clear that, unlike you (and many of the contributors to this forum), I wasn't wholeheartedly committed to the pukka BK way of life. You will find many articles on this forum where celibacy and purity are discussed. In one example on Purity under The Commonroom, I wrote the following:
pilatus wrote:I've been back to look at the BK Maryadas chart - there are two main headings of relevance "Observing Purity" and "Pure Diet". The text of the former fits well with my recollection of BK obsession - it focuses on celibacy first and then moves to a complicated bit about purity of thoughts, speech, vision and relationships.

It was clear in my time with the BK and it's reflected in the posts on this topic, that when a (ex/reforming/non) BK says Purity they most often mean celibacy with all the confusion and variety of views and experiences which that brings with it. All the other aspects mentioned above tend to get forgotten!

It's sometimes mentioned in Murlis, but gets lost in the noise, and is common throughout e.g. the New Testament, that the key point is purity of heart. The topic has repeatedly come back to this e.g. mr green wrote:
I think if you want purity, you can only work at it in your heart.

As a meat/fish/garlic/onion-eating, alcohol-drinking, loving husband and Father, this just has to be right!
This may not seem to be entirely relevant to your situation. I admire your statement:
master creator wrote:I really want to practise celibacy in 100% of its meaning!
However, I would encourage you to go very deep inside and check whether you do indeed want to be celibate. If you don't, there's no need to feel ashamed, guilty in front of Baba or beat yourself up. Don't forget that Brahma Baba had a (lokik) family before he started to have visions and founded the BK! There are many spiritual paths which don't require 100% celibacy. Many of the best of these at least tolerate or even encourage chaste relationships, i.e. loving, faithful, committed relationships with a life-long partner.

Lots of love, JSK and namaste

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Post by fluffy bunny » 01 Oct 2007

master creator ... I am afraid that due to limitations of time, I will have to reply to you later.

What I would like to say is, and I am sure this will be echoed by every forum member ... there are no Seniors here. We are all equals.

And your sincere questions is welcome. One of the reasons that we step over the "acceptable line" is allow and encourage the honest discussion, rather than supression, of such issues. Issue which are universal on any sincere spiritual path.

I am hoping that others with more expertise will join this discussion and explore the healthy channelling of sexual energies from 'spirito-biological' and Gyani points of view.

More later.

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Post by john » 01 Oct 2007

I can only add that it takes time and a deep or intuitional understanding of the whys of being celibate and the benefits.
Plus it is not just a few lifetimes of sanskars, but 2,500 years of them.

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Post by howiemac » 01 Oct 2007

Master Creator - my BK experiences indicated that BKs are encouraged to suppress their sexual drive, rather than to process it. Suppression causes accidents - if you keep increasing the weight on the nozzle of a pressure cooker, there will be a major explosion eventually and the food will be sprayed all over the roof... What is required is not suppression, but to turn down the heat. The BKs do not seem to teach this.

What is required is to process your normal and human feelings and urges - recognise and accept them and channel the base chakra energies upwards to the heart chakra - convert lust into love - this takes time and practice. Don't beat yourself up. Guilt is a sin. And suppression is unhealthy and dangerous.

I suspect that most BKs are not truly celibate, in body and mind, but few will admit to this.

I no longer accept that celibacy as a requirement for spiritual growth. I think it is unnatural and unhealthy to force this. As Pilatus says,
pilatus wrote:if you want purity, you can only work at it in your heart.
BB preaches about the sword of lust - and this is mis-interpreted by BKs as meaning that any expression of love is a sin. They deny the possibilty of physical closeness as part of a pure loving relationship. For me the key thing is not what you do, but the thoughts behind it. I can conceive of, indeed have experienced a few blissful instances of, two human beings making love physically in spiritual awareness - no awareness of the sexual mechanics of the process, but lost in love and happiness. This to me is how love will be made in paradise.

There is a very unhealthy dose of Anglo-Indian prudishness in the cold and sterile BK approach to sexuality. It is dehumanising.

Even the very reasoning for celibacy in the BKs is suspect - the traditional Indian reasons for celibacy in a spiritual path is to conserve vital energies so these can be channeled towards spiritual purposes. The BK approach to celibacy focuses on avoiding attachment - on avoiding the issue rather than dealing with it. This approach is based on fear - to conquer a weakness you must face it.

Ask your BK teachers how segregation by gender, physical detachment, and avoidance of friendship, let alone avoidance of sexuality, will make you Golden Aged? I was told essentially that we can not trust ourselves to be Golden Aged. In other words we should be scared of ourselves. The BK culture is riddled with fear and insecurity and this results in a complete failure to realistically address the issue of celibacy. As a brother there you are expected to just shut off your sexual drive, with absolutely no training or information on how to do this, no practical help whatsoever - the subject is taboo - you ARE taught to see your body as a dirty disgusting thing that you should have as little to do with as possible. This is Indian culture speaking - the spiritual approach would be to see your body as a temple.

Do not suppress your sexuality. When you feel attracted to someone, focus on loving them, in a spiritual way, from the heart. Let arousal happen and don't feel guilty. Arousal is not a problem - the problems come from a focus on bodies and sex. Sexual energy can be transmuted upwards into pure spiritual love for the object of your affection, and up higher into powerful spiritual light which you can donate to others. This is how to use sexual energy - transmute it upwards and radiate the transformed energy out through the heart chakra and the third eye.

A fully balanced yogi will have all chakras radiating in balance and harmony. She will be in divine bliss, at one with all divinity,while radiating love, and light. The body will be aroused sexually, as when we are asleep. This is normal. The yogi will not pay any attention to the physical arousal, but will stay in the awareness of love and bliss.

Good luck, and enjoy the journey :)

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Post by bro neo » 01 Oct 2007

Master creator,

Everything you have said is a lot similar to what I went through, but I bet my storms were much worse. Trust me.

Anyways you probably want to suicide because you think to have a pure mind = happiness, or that being a perfect BK=happiness (shanty, contentment, enlightenment, whatever.) These are big problems with BKs, perfectionism etc, especially when we are working against a Maya as powerful as Zeus’s evil wife, what was here name… Just remember BK, what ever has happened is good, whatever is happening is good, whatever will happen is best of all. This is just the Drama preparing you for a greater role, or if you fall later you can save others and still be #1.

Also you are not BB, he did not have the same Maya as us. His Maya was like a fluffy white chiken bird or something. We have Mayas such as a Dimentional Distorting Dragon constantly attacking us beyond time and space with hordes of evil pretty girls.

Anyways I used to lay in bed at night, after chart, rem Baba then as I would loose control over the mind, and drift to sleep, all the sex thoughts would bombard into it.

You can talk to a SS and they will give you some advice like just get up and do Yoga or something. But Maya just gets stronger. Eventually, for me my Maya was so powerful she took over me in my dreams and well, let me just say that if I was even going the give you the tip of the ice berg about what happened in my dreams, this post would move to lost property so fast ...

So what did I do, I talked to other Bro’s about it. You’re not the only one, share the yuktis, esp when you go to Madubhan, if you make it this year :lol: . I met this one Bro who claimed after years of Yoga finally instead of the energy going down there during meditation it went up to his brain and it’s that way ever sense. He also said the love we feel during meditation we could misinterpret it and then have spontaneous organisms. Didn’t happen to me, I think Bro’s are less prone to the this.

Stay at least 100 miles away from any sexually stimulation image, sound or environment. Oh and I almost forgot. The most important thing. The real secret

Look for information about sexuality, sex addiction, sexual health, and recovery from outside the BKWSU. This last part you might get some bad reviews from the SS because everything is suppose to be able to be solved by the BKWSU, but as you can see…

Anyways don’t worry, you’ve come a long way and just keep the battle in the day. You can destroy Maya just for today right? And even if you do slip, don’t worry tons of BKs slip, so many so that the deitys in the Golden Age won’t practice monogamy.

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the sex thing

Post by freedom » 01 Oct 2007

Beautifully expressed, howiemac ... :lol:.

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Post by master creator » 02 Oct 2007

bro neo wrote:Anyways you probably want to suicide because you think to have a pure mind = happiness, or that being a perfect BK=happiness (shanti, contentment, enlightenment, whatever.) These are big problems with BKs, perfectionism etc, especially when we are working against a Maya as powerful as Zeus's evil wife, what was here name ... Just remember BK, what ever has happened is good, whatever is happening is good, whatever will happen is best of all. This is just the Drama preparing you for a greater role, or if you fall later you can save others and still be #1.

So what did I do, I talked to other Bros about it. You’re not the only one, share the yuktis, esp when you go to Madubhan, if you make it this year :lol: . I met this one Bro who claimed after years of Yoga finally instead of the energy going down there during meditation it went up to his brain and it’s that way ever sense. He also said the love we feel during meditation we could misinterpret it and then have spontaneous organisms. did not happen to me, I think Bro’s are less prone to the this.

Look for information about sexuality, sex addiction, sexual health, and recovery from outside the BKWSU. This last part you might get some bad reviews from the SS because everything is suppose to be able to be solved by the BKWSU, but as you can see ...
Thank you everybody. Please continue to provide your experiences and the winning formulae. I agree that none of them are Seniors ... all are equals - what I was referring to was in terms of pure experience! About Suicide ... I don't think I can ever do that as that is also against Shrimat and frankly speaking thats not the solution. I fully accept that I am in the process of becoming perfect and at this point of time I am not perfect ... and also agree that, yes, Drama is preparing me for something better - but the only thing is I needed the arms and ammunition to fight this battle and thats the reason I wanted views of other souls so as to have some guidance in dealing with it ... as my centre in-charge will never give a practical solution openly on this problem! Even if I were to accumulate all the guts and tell them this its not going to work out!

Yes, I will be going to Madhuban this season and will look out for some experienced brothers. I am aware that there are some good kumars in the Yagya who are open minded and are approachable for such matters.

About the information outside the BK world - yes, I fully agree with you that its very important to be open minded and look for solutions even outside. Thanks again and please keep pouring your ideas for the benefit of this soul and many other souls who are facing this issue!

I also agree with howiemac that the energy needs to be transformed to love and also thanks to pilatus for the contribution especially for bringing out the point that we need to work at the heart level!

With lots of love,
IBY, *

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The precious gift of Tantra

Post by alladin » 02 Oct 2007

Guilt, suppression, perfectionism sure don' t help spiritual development nor the understanding of the self and our energies. Discussions on the Forum I read few months ago, disclosed to me some tricky aspect about celibacy I had never thought of before.
A) It's possible that most BKs accept the rule of celibacy because they had negative sexual experiences or relationships with the other gender, and thought that brahmacharya could be the panacea to cure dysfunctions that they did not know how to handle. A good escapism, coated with holiness. I presently think that a good shrink could help more.
B) It has been suggested that the imposition of celibacy on Raja Yoga students, is a key to attain total control over peoples's mind and private lives. This obsession about celibacy, raises my suspicions. Especially since many vicious behaviours and forms of corruption in Bk, including higher ranks are visible and tolerated. So, why concentrating so much on sex issue?? :roll: There are other obvious enemies too be fought, even more harmful.
I will post more points when they come to mind. For now, I can share a little chat I had - in fact today, sync!!- with a friend, related to what I just said.

Some people may accusingly claim that the vow of celibacy required for BKs, even couples, affects marriages negatively. In fact, I think that if a couple gets to the point of giving up sex, it probably had great problems in communication and intimacy, possibly attraction, respect, or self-confidence or appreciation of one's body decreased, and decided to take refuge in abstinence, presented as saintly and royal by the BKs. Again, a good psychologist could help.

In the past months especially, I really thought about such topics, and more than ever I feel that repression is very harmful and that the practise of celibacy should have nothing to do with that. It should be done under proper guidance, with understanding and no taboos or prudishness, and liable to being discontinued or questioned if it becomes a source negative emotions, internal conflicts etc ... If and when something comes up naturally, with no imposition, I feel it has more value.

In other spiritual paths, celibacy is suggested as an experiment, a temp practise, to enable the soul to verify the degree of dependency on sex, and experience a different set of feelings. Buddhists, who often promote balance, and a "middle way", and don't expect extreme choices from followers, basically say that sex is OK when it is practised without giving sorrow to anyone.
I agree with, and appreciate what Howiemac wrote, it's very elevated and resonates with me. I confirm that it is all true and attainable, and not just words which sound good.
As I wrote months ago, somewhere, I feel that such kind of experiences, where humans can feel whole and create harmony among all chakras, can heal us and transform the low and harmful energy of lust into something beautiful that we don't have to be ashamed of. For sure, many BKs would blush just at the idea of something as "sinful" as Tantra, but those who experienced what Howie managed to describe, know that love is the answer to purify all our energies, it is not a matter of ointments, anti-aphrodisiac food or cold showers!! The heart chakra counts, as Pilatus and others pointed out, that is the antidote . Artificial or forceful detachment is no solution, it just makes people bitter and contributes to building up pressure. It is astrologically associated to the lion, and the king of the jungle can help us ride and conquer any "tiger". If we are full of guilt or fear, how can we become Durgas? Do we want to be preys, shaking in terror of storms, or hunters, those who claim back our harmony?

The way I see it, pure love has little connection with chastity, and a lot to do with pure thoughts, virtues, powers and awareness.
I had the opportunity to notice how, a sincere effort and commitment in the purification of the mind, soul consciousness, and a good dharna, can bring the precious gift of what Howie wrote about. In this case, the practise of bodilessness, link with God, etc. will not just be useful to leave the body at the time of distruction, but to experience an uncommon kind of pleasure and fulfillment in this life, free from addictions, stress, selfishness & co.

Best wishes. Hope you find a good yogi/yogini partner to practise that. :D :wink:

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Re: The precious gift of Tantra

Post by jannisder » 02 Oct 2007

alladin wrote: Hope you find a good yogi/yogini partner to practise that. :D :wink:
I have a relationship with a BK for over a year. If it was all based on sex lust it would not have last ...

Our relationship is based on unconditional love. Celibacy is the way he wants to live, if i would leave him for that (as some did before) means that my love for him is not unconditional. Although i do not agree but a relationship based on lust to me is not done and i do not want to waste my time an body to that.

I experience a pure love, based on respect, love and lots of fun without any sexual tension (most of the time) Attraction is there and it might even get to the point that we want to be together in body and spirit ... well nothing can stop that. Its all in the drama is it not?
I am not a BK, he is and also has the still in working order body. Man can never ever stop that. If they tell you they can ... they lie. I have learned to respect his celibacy thing and give him time to finally find out for himself that it is all bullsh**. God shall never leave you for that.
Experience over the time learns that we are good company. He to me and i to him.

God knows that we want to be together and even suppose to be together but hey ... what can i say! He is brainwashed by BK.

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Post by bro neo » 02 Oct 2007

  • Lets talk about Maya baby.
    Let’s talk about you and me.
    Let’s talk about all the good things and bad things that make me.
    Let’s talk about ...
Maya, to me, is the BK’s archetype for human’s primal urges, just as the Devil or the snake is for Christians. From the perspective of a social order, an individuals primal urges, our animal instincts, are detrimental for the orderly conduct of a society. Our primal urges for sex, power, security, revenge, control, etc can lead an individual to rebel against society or its members in order to fulfill the individual’s genetic urges.

It is evil to society because it causes chaos and insecurity to the people who formed the society. Leaders say one must control and destroy the ‘evil’ within ourselves. This is in part an attempt for the rulers of society to keep their own security and status protected by labeling the animal instincts within us as evil.

To be dominated by ‘Maya’ is also detrimental for us as indivuals though, because then we act without reason, planning and good old fashion commonsense. But to say it’s all together evil may be going too far.

The BK’s famous concept of Body Consciousness versus Soul Consciousness is another thing to consider. Their concept is that when we believe we are a body we run under the B.C. program and when we ‘remember’ we are souls we operate from a different M.O..

I think the human being is a very complex animal and that we do have an intelligence which is in a way independent and in ways also intertwined with our ‘higher’ consciousness. The primal instincts, body’s intelligence or body consciousness could be seen as a back up system in case world war 3 came and we had to start all over again in the jungles fighting lions and tigers. I also see it as an intelligence in and of it self (or part of us) that needs to be respected and accepted for what it is, a very intelligent animal.

Animals are driven by urges for survival, lust, and social status. The BKs philosophy tells us to use our higher operating abilities (Intellect) to put our ‘lower’ intelligence in check for ‘spiritual’ purposes, e.g. love your new spiritual family to be secure and live forever in heaven instead of loving your Lokik family and community, give knowledge and have spiritual children instead of sex and having Lokik children, and be an effort maker and Gyany Yogi to have high status and be one of the 8 instead of becoming educated and skilled to become great in society.

Looking back, BK master creator, when I was a BK and I had my worse bouts with Maya and sex lust, it was when I felt unloved and un-respected by the Family. Also, when I didn’t love and respect myself for the efforts and out come of the efforts I was making. My subconscious saw I was not getting love, it believes I need love, so it told me this in the form of obsessions of lust or perhaps the need for perfectionism. The subconscious communicates to us its truth when we let our guard down from the mind, e.g. sleep, relaxing, etc.

Also watch out for manic depressive tendencies whilst being a BK. When we start meditating that we are in the Golden Age in a perfect world surrounded by our absolute greatest desires and urges fulfilled, our brains bio-chemically believes this and responds with huge amounts of brain drugs. Then when our awareness (conscious and subconscious) focuses on the real world, our center, Family, and life circumstances the brain can respond with extreme depression, potentially suicidal depression, from a biochemical perspective.

Avoiding the highs and lows now a days, for me is about accepting and respecting what is and not what should be. Also it’s about treating the body and subconscious mind like a beautiful creature, a horse or dragon maybe, and the soul or higher self is the rider. Unless we guide the horse and take care of it with great love and heart it can and will rebel or even kill us.

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Post by heshe » 03 Oct 2007

Polish your rocket and get on with your life :D.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 03 Oct 2007

Actually, I recommend that you do not "polish your own rocket" under any circumstances whatsoever. Get someone else to polish it for you and polish their's in return. That is far healthier and you will learn so much more.

I'll be back with a more serious answer later but the same principle stands. part of the whole taboo of sex within the BKWSU is to do with the SS's complete and utter control of every aspect of you; your life, your body, your relationships, your everything. Not God. God is love, God will love you fine ... frankly, will the Golden Age be worth it if it is full of dishonest, manipulative old ladies?

Sometime is it actually healthy to challenge and break taboos ... especially if it means breaking their, or even Supreme Spook Shiva's total control over you. The important thing is to be completely clear and honest about things (Swa Raj), do not kid yourself or anyone else, do use or abuse BK system to do so ... and be open and sensible about things. Pplay and learn.

I think the BKs have a lot to learn about the managemet of sexual energies, their "Do Raja Yoga and it Will Cure Everything" does not work.

I would like to know the truth about the early days and what went on there, if you can tell us.

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Post by master creator » 04 Oct 2007

I will be very grateful to all of you if you can provide some more practical tips. Thanks.

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Re: Why nobody wants to discuss this biggest test?

Post by Golden Heart » 04 Oct 2007

master creator wrote:I approach this forum for appropriate guidance on this matter of conquering lust and lustful thoughts and feelings. I really want to practise celibacy in 100% of its meaning!
Sweet Golden Heart, master creator

Salutations to you, and thank you for your extreme courage in projecting your difficulty.

1. This is a very normal, routine issue of BK life, nothing to be perturbed about. We have all gone through the same experience, and I consider that Brahma Baba had the severest attacks, in this respect, even at his old age of more than 60 years. The Knowledge clearly tells us that such attacks will definitely occur and clearly defines the methods to deal with them and overcome them, if one cares to comprehend Knowledge carefully and observe the disciplines advocated to the best of one’s ability.

2. To begin with, get this sensation of guilt right out of your system. Guilt is a Bhakti Sanskar and has no relevance in Gyan. Your experiences are perfectly normal and absolutely acceptable to Baba, in the process of transformation. The best solution is to constantly talk with Baba in your mind, have a heart-to-heart conversation with Baba. I remember, when I was passing through a similar phase, I used to continuously confess and talk to Baba about this. I used to say, "You do not want this, I do not want this, so which other power is imposing it on me ? I do not believe Maya is more powerful than You, and so Maya should not exercise this power over me, etc., etc." The response I received by way of touching was, "Sweet Child, Maya will fight like a Rustom with a Rustom. Storms of Maya will definitely come with increasing severity, because you are on a path to a very high destination. Whatever storms may come in the mind, try your best not to express through your sense organs, and follow Shrimat as best as possible. Baba will definitely help, Baba is bound to help."

Sometimes, in desperation, I used to say, "Baba, I am getting killed". The response I received was, : "Sweet Child, you must definitely make efforts to kill your negative self, Baba is always there to help you". Gradually, over a period of time, as I continued to confess to Baba each time, surrendered the action to Baba each time, continued to make a firm resolve in my mind to overcome this situation each time, and continued to observe the disciplines to the best of my ability, the power of the feelings declined, and are now completely sublimated. When we are passing through this phase it is like Fire and Fury, but once we have crossed it, it appears as easy as passing a hair through softened butter.

3. It is not true that nobody is willing to guide you in the BK Family. Just as you have exercised courage to reveal your difficulty here, you must have the same courage to express it to any instrumental experienced soul in the Family. Since you will be going to Madhuban this season, I will not go into too much detail here, but you may approach Ashok Gabba who is dealing with the Security Wing, who is normally very friendly with Double Foreigners. You may also meet Mohan Singhal who is dealing with the Scientists and Engineering Wing, and thereafter Partap Midha who is dealing with the Medical Wing.

I have personally interacted with all above souls, many years ago. Of course, those days we used to have a lot of time for each other, but nowadays everyone has become very busy. I have not been in touch with them for past several years, but I am sure they would help or direct you to someone who would definitely give plenty of guidance in this matter.

On your part, you must put in your request, saying, "I have a pressing personal problem to discuss, could you give me some time for this ?" You must persist and you will definitely receive proper guidance, this is your basic right. And for Baba's sake, do not feel embarrassed about the situation – not in the least. This is a very down-to-earth, practical path and that too for House-holders. The only thing is that we must attempt to comprehend the K in its proper perspective.

Wishing you all the very best and with imperishable Divine Love,

In Loveful Remembrance of Supreme Soul Shiv,

Golden Heart

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