What to do? Alternative roles and training for BK sisters

DEDICATED to BKs.
For those involved with the Brahma Kumaris, to discuss issues about the BKWSU in a free and open manner.
User avatar
fluffy bunny
ex-BKWSU
Posts: 5365
Joined: 07 Apr 2006
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-BK
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: ex-BK. Interested in historical revisionism, failed predictions and abuse within the BK movement.

What to do? Alternative roles and training for BK sisters

Post by fluffy bunny » 14 May 2008

I thought Yogi raised some very good points in their post on the BKWSU AIDs counseling thread that were worthy of continued discussion. I am speaking here mainly of India and Indian born sisters.
yogi108 wrote:I do not know too much of how it is being done in India ... I agree that BKs are entering areas which are not their specialisation ... I agree that they are not all trained in these things but what do you expect those surendered Sisters to do? Just roll chappatis and wash utensils ... come on now they need a career path and that is to do hospice, manage hospitals etc.. They are not even talking about succession planning in the BK world ...
ex-l wrote:You raise interesting issues that I would hope to agree with, e.g. once "processed" to be altruistic and benign server, the surrendered BK Sisters to be put back into the public at all levels and NOT be corrupt as is broadly the norm in developing nations (no offense to Indian hospital staff). What we could be seeing is the evolution of the Brahma Kumaris from a 'millenarianist cult' to a proper 'religious order' complete with hospices and nursing staff etc.

"Succession planning" ... very good point. It is also a good question to ask, "what do I expect them to do?" which I would ask you to allow me to think about and come back to you ...
I suggested, "more training please" ... each BK Sister to receive basic nursing/first aid/counseling training. What is the literacy rate within the BKWSU India?

I have a very high vision of what ANY woman could become, young or old. In a sense, it would be proof of the BKWSU if their women DID rise to become societies leaders, not just by repeating Gyan ad nauseum and claiming to be world saviours whilst rolling out the same old shows. We are told Lekhraj Kirpalani did have too; training the early sisters to be self-sufficient ... albeit the furthest they got was making clothes to make an income, we never heard if they ever did.

Are the surrendered sisters just turned into serfs or courtesans for the empire, depending whether they are "chapatti-roller" material or VIP servers; or are any of them truly supported and encouraged to educate and develop themselves? Do the BKs educate their sisters?

Over to you BKs ...

User avatar
yogi108
BK
Posts: 137
Joined: 08 Jan 2008
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-BK

Re: What to do? Alternative roles and training for BK Sisters

Post by yogi108 » 14 May 2008

As a BK, I have seen sisters really struggling to find resources to take care of their daily needs, forget about formal training etc ... I did raise it at one center and was almost banished. This happens in centers abroad ... they have some great classification of serviceable sisters;
  • 1. one who is good at hooking up with Rich influential Prospects (Very Serviceable)
    2. One who is good at cooking/cleaning/taking care of the house all of these with a smile (Equally serviceable)
    3. One who is good at keeping the Indian souls intact (giving them special breakfast/lunch etc and those extra tolis) Diwali etc.)
    4. The one who talks about special training and other things like even pursuing higher education or special courses (Souls who have Maya)
Now this also happens with students ... so a revolution needs to happen and all these sisters need to go and see the outside world instead of being happy with the odd toli from Bap-Dada ... In fact, most of them are multi-talented and its such a big waste of good talent ...

Yogi

john morgan
ex-BK
Posts: 306
Joined: 06 Oct 2007
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-BK

Re: What to do? Alternative roles and training for BK Sisters

Post by john morgan » 14 May 2008

It would be an eye opener to some to realise that the "chapatti-roller" material that they speak of are, in fact, the recipients of an elevated spiritual education. That so many educated persons attend the classes of the BKWSU and find there something that is worth learning speaks well of "chapatti-rollers".

The main activity of the BKWSU is to provide spiritual education. That the BK are now providing more visible forms of service is an excellent development that will undoubtedly meet the approval of those that have not understood the subtler aspects of BK activity.

The more recent modes of service are BK initiatives, that these modes are attracting supporters and advisors from outside the BKWSU may be a positive development.

User avatar
fluffy bunny
ex-BKWSU
Posts: 5365
Joined: 07 Apr 2006
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-BK
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: ex-BK. Interested in historical revisionism, failed predictions and abuse within the BK movement.

Re: What to do? Alternative roles and training for BK Sisters

Post by fluffy bunny » 14 May 2008

Spoken like a true colonialists. I can imagine the same thing being said by a Christian in Africa a hundred years ago ... "Good heavens man, they are receiving an 'elevated spiritual education' ... what else do they need!?!" "Get them back on the plantation! Look, they are smiling at us!"

Although it says, "elevated spiritual education" on the outside of the box, and we like to think that, we do not know that yet and wont know until the final moment. Whilst right now, we do know and should document some of the realities of the equation.
yogi108 wrote:As a BK, I have seen Sisters really struggling to find resources to take care of their daily needs, forget about formal training etc ... I did raise it at one center and was almost banished. This happens in centers abroad ...
I have to agree with you about the talents and character of some of the sisters ... may be even most (as we never really got to know them).

I am concerned. What sort of struggles are you talking about? Some put on such cheerful faces, and given that discussion or dissent is not part of the system, one worries at what is going on behind them. We discussed the junior sisters being spirituality educated, and rolling chapattis in the hand-me saris before. Having read many of Janki Kripalani classes, I have to ask when are they actually educated and in what else but "the religion" of BK?

Obviously, I am not being derogatory by labeling 'lower caste BKs' as "chapatti rollers". My support for them is clear in the proposal but to ignore them is to ignore the simple matter of logistics. Its an army. For every ShivShakti general serving presidents and sultan's sons, you need x number of infantry, lieutenants and masters at arms. Where there are "too many chiefs", someone has to fill the role of being "Indians" ... whether their destiny and potential is more or not.

In India, more of this goes on than we might care. Aspirations in women have generally been crushed for aeons. A girl might go from being destined to roll chapattis in her aunty's house, to rolling chapattis in Baba's house. The old "Destruction logic", that we tasted in the West, kicks in ... what is the point of education and a career if the End of the World is coming ... and there are chapattis to be rolled.

I think this is also a undiscussed problem with Indian sisters in the West where there are "cultural values" at play as well. If we accept the religion is evolving, and look at other previous examples, at least nuns became teachers and nurses etc. In some monastic orders adherents were expect to take on one expertise or another to balance with the clerical or spiritual disciplines. There is only so much spiritual education one can take in one day and a balance is required.

The need for accountancy, for example, is something else even BapDada has highlighted. What about a brilliant, shining soul that cannot read very well? How can they access the source of their education ... or is that "their karma" too? Are skills being shared by the elite BKs beyond the Self Management Leadership course so that they can "serve" businessmen?

I think that in underling this, we recognise again that for all the talk of "unlimited spiritual education" what counts and what is really valued are skills or qualities that are not actually taught or encouraged, e.g. "lokik education", practical intelligence that might just be the produce of a early nourishment and a nice, middle class upbringing.

User avatar
yogi108
BK
Posts: 137
Joined: 08 Jan 2008
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-BK

Re: What to do? Alternative roles and training for BK Sisters

Post by yogi108 » 15 May 2008

John,

I agree that the chappathi rollers are actually well equipped to deliver great classes. Now, in one of the seven days course in the US, there was a question about 5-6 million souls and do they include the Aliens that we hear of ... the junior sister just could not handle these type of questions ... all they come back and say in the class they are waiting for Baba to touch them with an answer ... Call it lack of exposure or lack of time or a proper grounding by the organization to deal with people from all walks of life ... One, there needs to be continous internal training for those sisters who are likely to face the world with folks who come from varied walks of life ...

Secondly, when now the BKs want to enter other spheres like Healthcare, Corporate world (SML) etc then they need to be formally trained. Baba's spiritual knowledge helps but then that is not the only one the souls need. I am suggesting a more complete sister out there equipped, motivated and sharp enough to handle professional matters

ex-l,

I am talking of junior sisters' struggle in terms of, "They do not have any source of Income to take care of their personal stuff like going to meet their own family, buying stuff which they would need on a day-to-day basis". If they want to work, then the Senior Sister is worried that Maya will catch them!!!

I know of one case where a sister was going back from the US to India and she did not have any money to take care of emergency situations that might come up during travel ... One of the students out of his generosity gave a couple of hundred dollars and she was so happy ...

Junior sisters depend on students to sponsor so many of their needs ... what if the students just cannot considering the current state of the economy ...

The BK organization does not have any systems in place like a per-diem for someone going out to do a SML ... they do not take care of the sisters who deliver maximum value to the organization ...

There needs to be some re-thinking in terms of what is the path for these sisters who have some formal education to move up in the BK organization ... After all they have given up their careers, family etc. thinking that Destruction is a few years away ... now do not they need to do something about their lives ...

Would be interested in some BKs responding to this as well as PBKs and the rest of them.

Yogi

User avatar
arjun
PBK
Posts: 11799
Joined: 01 May 2006
Affinity to the BKWSU: PBK
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: To exchange views with past and present members of BKWSU and its splinter groups.
Location: India

Re: What to do? Alternative roles and training for BK Sisters

Post by arjun » 15 May 2008

yogi108
I had prepared a detailed reply online, but lost it when I submitted the post. I was asked to re-login. I don't know if it is a problem with my internet connection or with the forum software. I think I will have to first type & save in Word document before posting on the forum.
Arjun

User avatar
tom
ex-BK
Posts: 139
Joined: 14 Jan 2008
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-BK
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: Mahatma Gandhi said first :"God is Truth", ultimately he said "Truth is God"
which made me a member of this forum.

Re: What to do? Alternative roles and training for BK Sisters

Post by tom » 19 May 2008

yogi108 wrote:I am talking of junior Sisters' struggle in terms of, "They do not have any source of Income to take care of their personal stuff like going to meet their own family, buying stuff which they would need on a day-to-day basis". If they want to work, then the Senior Sister is worried that Maya will catch them!! ... I know of one case where a Sister was going back from the US to India and she did not have any money to take care of emergency situations that might come up during travel ... One of the students out of his generosity gave a couple of hundred dollars and she was so happy .."
Dear yogi108,

this sensitive issue is a big taboo in Yagya. Your post is a classic and very shocking for me. I wished that Dadi Janki and all Seniors read it.

How embarrassing it must be for the young BK sisters to depend on "donations" or "sponsorships" from the students. How embarrassing it is for the students to observe the situation of the surrendered BK sisters and have to offer them help. How embarrassing it is for the leadership of BKWSU to let the Mahavirs of their Shiv Shakti Army beg. Especially given the fact that to give and take money between the BKs is strictly forbidden according to the Maryadas. No need to mention how shameful it is even in lokik terms to take money for personal needs from a student.

In the centers i lived, in the West where no Indian surrendered sisters were living, we have been encouraging all young BK sisters and brothers to study and to find a good job in order to be independent.

But for decades I had the possibility to meet highly intelligent BKWSU teachers, sisters and brothers of mostly Indian origin and also some surrendered double foreigners, who were in their young age “convinced” by Dadi Janki or other Seniors not to waste time (!) with university as “Destruction is ahead” and to give up the idea of a career for the sake of Baba's service. Because of the sensitivity of the issue, it is difficult to ask direct questions but the hearsay system in Yagya is functioning very well. Even if those BK teachers would one day understand what they missed due to lack of university education and their forced dependency on the BKWSU system to survive, it is too late for them.

What happens with those sisters and brothers if they don’t leave BKWSU and don’t find any lokik job? If they are skilled and have good relations with Dadi Janki and the leadership they become center-in-charge’s and teachers who are allowed from the BKWSU leadership to live off Baba’s Box and on honorariums from organized public events, when they are invited to give a talk? (Of course, indirect "soft Gyan").The sister in charges however may get a monthly compensation from Dadi Janki if the center’s income is not sufficient.

I was shocked reading that BKWSU gets Government’s funding for “teachers training” in many centers.
ex-l wrote:BKWSU, the business, money and selling Gyan, ex-l’s post from 12th of May 2008

“More government funding for the BKWSU for "Teacher training Programmes" from Government of India, Higher Education Department. Now, bearing in mind that we presume the BK teachers involved are unpaid and the centers/properties either privately own or paid for by donations ... where does the money go to do what?”

“I am ABSOLUTELY SURE that I am only scraping the surface here but I calculate this lot to be, 5,147,000 rupees or $ 125,659 USD. Any leads of further information, which I am sure are scattered around different Departments and States or corrections would be welcome."

"The average household income in India is around $550 USD per year. However around 25-30% of the population earning close to only $1 per day. Now, how much did we say the BKWSU gave to the Tsunami relief fund? Oh, that is right. They never said or would not tell us.”
The sums are great, considering that those young teachers besides the center-in-charges and sometimes the co- center-in-charges are not getting anything for their own needs from Yagya. In some centers the center-in-charges are financing or supporting the expenses of the centers with their own income from their lokik families or from their lokik jobs.

In some regions however the donors are very generous :
BKWSU, the business, money and selling Gyan,ex-l’s post from the 6th Feb.2007: “On the Charity Commission website, the Total Funds for the UK have risen to £16.29m."
See please the official accounts in the "BK Financial, Downloads"

Now we must ask, what is BKWSU doing with above mentioned funds and the Government funds for teachers training?

We must ask further why is BKWSU leadership not covering the expenses (in a sensible amount) of all surrendered young sisters, who are assistant teachers and great helpers in the household of the centers all over the world, who are not allowed to study and not encouraged to find a job (to protect them from Maya!) or who can not find any job because of their lack of education.

Seeing Dadi Janki going on tours of collecting donations from lokik ones and from the students (See: Forum, Mukrimata Funding), seeing and hearing that centers have started to ask by e-mail from the students donations:
[
And warrior attached to his post a letter from a United Kingdom Center sent to the students asking for donations for the expenses.

Taking into consideration the yearly official accounts (see BK Financial, Downloads) and the Governments funds, and unregistered donations (who knows the real amount of the unregistered cash donations from the boxes and personally presented cash donations to Dadi Janki in Madhuban and all over the world) and that no charity work worth mentioning is done by BKWSU ( See: Forum; BKWSU Response to Burma Disaster) and learning that the young surrendered sisters are left to the mercy and donations of the students (see yogi108 post above), I think we may describe this period as “The Ultimate Beggary Period”.

Tom

User avatar
fluffy bunny
ex-BKWSU
Posts: 5365
Joined: 07 Apr 2006
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-BK
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: ex-BK. Interested in historical revisionism, failed predictions and abuse within the BK movement.

Re: What to do? Alternative roles and training for BK Sisters

Post by fluffy bunny » 19 May 2008

Thanks for taking up these issues Tom.

Yes, I would love someone to do some research in India to find out at least how much legitimate funds the BKWSU ... in all its incarnations ... are accounting for. I suspect one could even order papers from the Government.

ex-BK Howiemac once witnessed in this forum his experience of being given a donation receipt for many time more the actual amount of paper money he had given the Dehli center, so who knows what that was used for or hiding. And remember the Income Tax note about the BKWSU having income from "investments". Then there was the chapter about some BKs doing property deals at Mount Abu as well ... I think matters have spiraled out of control.

£16,000,000 ... how many BKs are in the UK? ... A few hundred ... and how many teachers? ... And is there any distribution of this wealth bearing in mind that the money in London is not local but based on imported or common wealth from all around the world and nation. Is it distributed back out again or are they acting like some Colonial Power using the system laid down by the British Colonial Power?

BKs ought to wake up a little out of their hypnotic daze and get real about what is going on. Sisters ... get some personal assertion courses, some accountancy and some legal training.

User avatar
paulkershaw
ex-BK
Posts: 684
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-BKWSU
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: I am an ex-teacher and member of the BKWSU and my interest lies in assisting those who request support on any level I can.
Location: South Africa

Alternative roles and training for BK Sisters

Post by paulkershaw » 19 May 2008

An alternative role I could suggest being created is one of 'BKWSO Historian" - who document evey past aspect of the organisations history and revision processes and who would be accountable for producing documented and provable facts for enquiring minds.

I've never wondered about this but is there a "BKWSO History Department" in Mount Abu? If so who heads it ...?

User avatar
paulkershaw
ex-BK
Posts: 684
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-BKWSU
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: I am an ex-teacher and member of the BKWSU and my interest lies in assisting those who request support on any level I can.
Location: South Africa

Alternative roles and training for BK Sisters....

Post by paulkershaw » 19 May 2008

tom wrote:And warrior attached to his post a letter from a United Kingdom Center sent to the students asking for donations for the expenses.
This certainly happens, Sorry to change the thread here, and it can be re-posted elsewhere if need be.
In my days as a student, money was needed to do something or the other at times, and in class I (along with several other working BK's, mostly males) was asked to stay behind and openly asked to 'contribute' as the money in the bhandara did not cover the costs needed. I remember being quite surprised that this wasn't mentioned in front of the whole class, but those who had a good income were singled out.

I also remember feeling rather ticked off that if someone believed in their organisation so much, that they should go out and work for the money they needed at the time and not sleep for three hours every afternoon while the rest of us worked regular hours and still kept up the required Brahmin lifestyle and made to feel bad because there was not enough money for God's fine work.

I suppose it was in my fortune to be asked eh?

User avatar
bansy
Posts: 1643
Joined: 30 Apr 2006
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-BK

Re: What to do? Alternative roles and training for BK Sisters

Post by bansy » 19 May 2008

I suppose it was in my fortune to be asked eh?
Well PK, I am about to make your fortune explode as I provide you details of a private Swiss Bank account where you can unburden all your worldy attachments. The account accepts all types of scrip papers as well as precious metals,and will even accept used rings with red signa that are meltable. :mrgreen: To cap it all I will be having my afternoon nap whilst the interest clock ticks away.

And you'll get a specially rolled chappatti fresh from Bansy's kitchen of heaven for your effort, just to balance the books. The more burdens you unload, the more chappattis you get. :D

Actually, if the BKs want to make a profit, they can merchandise and brand their chappattis for sale at 5 rupees a piece, but it will cost extra for toppings such as walnuts and maple syrup ("nectar"). Maybe there is some use after all for these chappatti rollers.

I think there is a difference in what is perceived education in the developed world and that in the developing world. In the developed world, the street is full of MAs and MScs and Certified this and that and ending up working behind the checkout, whereas in the developing nations being able to go to college can be seen as an accomplishment and then work behind the checkout. This is just metaphorically speaking of course.

The "training" given in the BKWSU is called Seva. It is up to the soul to give spiritual knowledge to oneself and to others. There is no one way of learning Seva, as it encompasses the unlimited as defined by that soul and is not limited by boundaries except those created by oneself.

There's talk here about training for sisters, but do surrendered brothers have the same sorts of issue ?

User avatar
jannisder
Friends and family of
Posts: 454
Joined: 29 Jan 2007
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-BK
Location: europe

Re: What to do? Alternative roles and training for BK Sisters

Post by jannisder » 20 May 2008

Merchandise? Oh boy,... the BKWSU is worse than Disney.
They even got Supreme Soul night lamps. What else is there....little note books, flags, carts, agenda's, books, magazines, all to keep your mind focused and hooked up and to get the money out of your pocket :shock:

User avatar
yogi108
BK
Posts: 137
Joined: 08 Jan 2008
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-BK

Re: What to do? Alternative roles and training for BK Sisters

Post by yogi108 » 20 May 2008

Hello All

Tom,

You are right indeed its shocking and its not that DJ doesnt know all these things.. but the funds that are accumulated are being used in expansion or I heard that in the UK there are atleast seven of those ten foot chests filled with living Bk's will's and once they die (ooops sorry leave body) will get executed and new ones will take their place....

But one of their own junior sisters will have to leave the country with just nothing but boxes of toli's and personal belongings....

Some of them who come abroad are very rarely used in service.. they come there to run errands, make senior sisters special food.. and because of that they get a chance to offer Bhog for baba on thursdays!!! why Indian sisters are puruer than western sisters.. what BS???

Yes you are right they were brainwashed into giving up their studies and career etc by DJ and people like them.... but what happens now you have a large number of sisters in the BKWSU who are neither well trained but some do not even know how to speak English properly running centers and then we accuse them of politicking within their own centers to get their share of the Pie...

The organization needs revamping from the very top and they need to look hard at their defined goals and objectives of sisters who are doing GOD's SEVA.

World Transformation will Happen when the BKWSU transforms themselves instead of fooling themselves and the rest of the WORLD

Yogi

User avatar
paulkershaw
ex-BK
Posts: 684
Joined: 11 Dec 2006
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-BKWSU
Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: I am an ex-teacher and member of the BKWSU and my interest lies in assisting those who request support on any level I can.
Location: South Africa

Re: What to do? Alternative roles and training for BK Sisters

Post by paulkershaw » 20 May 2008

Bansy wrote: And you'll get a specially rolled chappatti fresh from Bansy's kitchen of heaven for your effort, .... but it will cost extra for toppings such as walnuts and maple syrup ("nectar"). Maybe there is some use after all for these chappatti rollers.
The chappatti offer seals it! You're on my list of A-people now. Want to come sailing to the Canaries next month on my new yacht?
Now in my BK days.... maple syrup would have been considered serious Maya and unneccessary attachment. I remember watching others BK's in Madhuban who'd brought syrup and peanut butter with them & thinking how nice that would taste but not allowing myself to have it. (Read= I longed for it but was too pukka so would buy a coke and a chocolate in the village when no-one was looking!)
Jeez; those syrup carrying BK's sure were mega-popular people at lunch time! (If I knew then what I know now....!)
Thanx for the memory in any case. :D But I've just begun to shriek wildly at the fact that I too still have my old chappatti roller in my kitchen drawer, and I still use it!
Oh the extent to whichmy BK past history still hits home amazes me. Anyway gotta go - I am going home to build a fire.

bkti-pit
BK
Posts: 274
Joined: 14 Jun 2007
Affinity to the BKWSU: ex-BK

Re: What to do? Alternative roles and training for BK Sisters

Post by bkti-pit » 20 May 2008

bansy wrote:...do surrendered Brothers have the same sorts of issue ?
I don't know about elsewhere but in the US yes indeed, at least to some extent.

I know a brother who got a speeding ticket on his way to pick-up a guest at the airport. Although he receives something like $50 a month for his personal expenses, he cannot afford paying for the ticket and he wouldn't ask the Center to pay for it. He simply considers spending a few nights in jail. A brother who has a lokik job offered to pay his ticket but it is embarrassing for him. I don't know the final outcome.

Others have been offered clothing, gifts of food not usually provided by their Center (e.g. soymilk), assistance for travel expenses when visiting their family...

I know many surrendered brothers and sisters in the US who cannot afford health insurance and have to apply for public assistance for the poor since the Yagya has no provision for health insurance coverage for its workforce.

I know of a 60+ years old brother who still has a job and has been a main financial supporter of his local Center for 20 years+. He has a good job but no savings and simply hopes for the best when he will reach retirement.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests