How can the BKWSU keep lying to outsiders?

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mbbhat
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Re: How can the BKWSU keep lying to outsiders?

Post by mbbhat » 06 Jan 2013

1)In essence, what you are saying is. "I chose not to believe in absolute truth ... therefore I accept some degree of falsehood".

2)The question is what degree of falsehood do you accept from your god spirit/Lekhraj Kirpalani? 10% ... 50% ... 90% ... 100%?

3)It seems to me you are saying, "Our god/Lekhraj Kirpalani can lie and mislead us 100% 'in order to test our faith' and that is acceptable".

4)In fact, this is the way BK adherents are taught to think. Don't think ... don't question ... just follow blindly ...
1) For me absolute truth means , essence , that is - one that gives me energy, or one that is related for 5000 years. And , not what you define.

2) already explained. I have given enough Murlis points - which are totally contradicting. We are interested in truth/energy/purity rather than physical aspects.

Can you prove soul or how do you believe in visions (you had said so), when you had not seen them?
You also had said- you believe in soul and rebirths. Can you prove it according to your own theory of absolute truth and satisfy every person in this world (if it is absolute according to you, then you should be, is it not? )/b]
3) I do not feel bad. There are enough memories both in theoretical (stories in scriptures) as well as in Bhaktimarg which are like similar. I had already put them in old forum also.

Many times, in Bhakti, Vision occurs happens when person become ready to sacrifice himself. So- why even in Bhaktimarg it is so?

If you believe in visions, then why does not God give vision for every devotee who believes in God?

4) Good comment. fine.

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fluffy bunny
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Re: How can the BKWSU keep lying to outsiders?

Post by fluffy bunny » 06 Jan 2013

mbbhat wrote:1) For me absolute truth means ...
And how can you justify the BKWSU clearly lying to outsiders as part of being the absolute truth? Which it does.

You see, right there, that's the problem. "For me" brings it right down to a subjective or relative truth. Neither you nor any BK can prove it to be true. It's only a faith. Bhakti.

You might say, "absolute faith", I suppose, but that is all.

Here's an interesting quote ...
Bertrand Russell" wrote:Philosophy is to be studied, not for the sake of any definite answers to its questions since no definite answers can, as a rule, be known to be true, but rather for the sake of the questions themselves; because these questions enlarge our conception of what is possible, enrich our intellectual imagination and diminish the dogmatic assurance which closes the mind against speculation; but above all because, through the greatness of the universe which philosophy contemplates, the mind also is rendered great, and becomes capable of that union with the universe which constitutes its highest good.

mbbhat
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Re: How can the BKWSU keep lying to outsiders?

Post by mbbhat » 06 Jan 2013

1)And how can you justify the BKWSU clearly lying to outsiders as part of being the absolute truth? Which it does.

2)You might say, "absolute faith", I suppose, but that is all.

3)You see, right there, that's the problem. "For me" brings it right down to a subjective or relative truth. Neither you nor any BK can prove it to be true. It's only a faith. Bhakti.

1) first of all, what you are discussing are relative truth, and not absolute (according to my concept).

You may call anything you like.

2)The saying god is truth has higher value than science is truth. No scientist says science is truth. Why? There is another saying- victory of silence over science (not sure whether this is famous in lowkik world). What could be the reason?

It is said- might is the highest power. But, still it is said - Happiness is the highest might. Why?

So- that is why I say- you are right in your perspective, and I am right is my perspective. But, when you expect the other to bow down to you or to be tuned to your things, then arguments come.

According to BK theory- Drama is the highest truth, even higher than God.

Now, if you cannot prove existence of God to others (by your way of absolute concept), then how can you understand drama?

If you believe it is highest faith, then do you like to say and declare to the whole world that - there is no god in reality. It is just matter of faith (even for lowkik people)? And, how many people who follow absolute truth (according to your concept) will certify this? why many great scientists believed existence of god?

3) Bhakti has two meanings. The real meaning of Bhakti is love towards God. So- real/true Bhakti = real knowledge.

But, due to lack of knowledge of god, drama, etc, Bhakti becomes blind faith and degrades. [Similarly, if there is lack of purity, then even gyaan will be useless.]

So- balance of Gyan (knowledge = law) and Bhakti (love ) will lead to success.

Drama is the highest law. And not your literal figures and facts.

But, ordinary people are more conscious of or influenced by these figures and facts. So- it is up to them or people like you.

Knowledge of BKs say- that final paper is of faith. To become karmaateet, one should have faith in everything- in drama, God, self, BKs as well as all others!

So- unless one understands drama or puts his step synchronous with drama (feels he is an actor), he cannot find or realize absolute truth (liberation in life). And, this drama is also said to be as variety. so- you may think the word variety here and do your churning. i tried, but could not go very far, because one will get confused if he is not attached with the essence.

There is no surprise if BKs are not correct in these literal figures and facts- because when Murli itself speaks in a similar way, then why should I bother?

But, some people begin to question - who is your guru? When this was started, blah, blah, blah. I had this experience. When I was about to give course- first as - introduction of God, the person asked me- who is your guru? I said- first let us get introduction of god. but, still he said- show me your guru. I had similar experience just from around 5 to 10 people.

I am not saying - What BKs are doing is correct. But, what I am saying is- BK life is not dependent on these facts. It says - become ever ready. But, some weak BKs may get influenced by these dates of destruction, age of DL, etc.

So- up to them.

I also agree that- it is difficult to cope up with these situations - like failure of predictions, etc. so- something or other things may have to be said- what BKs are doing. all is drama.

But, I think- it will give additional/full marks for BKs , since they are going to pass the test of even Bhakti faith (= Bhakti of even devotees).

Good, wonderful.

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Re: How can the BKWSU keep lying to outsiders?

Post by Roy » 06 Jan 2013

mbbhat wrote:balance of Gyan (knowledge = law) and Bhakti (love ) will lead to success.
I like this... one could alternatively say accurate knowledge of the Father, including his true form and role... and this can facilitate accurate remembrance(love) of Him, which will lead to success.

"Those who remember Father above (in the Soul World, Paramdham) follow the path of worship, because they do not know the occupation. They do not know His name, form, country, and time." [Mu 14.10.68]

"So most important, is to understand the role of Father... who is Father?... until this is understood, everything is a waste." [Mu 05.04.67]

"In order to go into the stage of ascending, follow Shrimat at every step. Recognise the Father accurately, be soul conscious and have full regard for Him." [Mu 06.02.12]

"The more you remember (the Father accurately), the clearer your path will become." [Mu 17.08.65]

"It has been said earlier too, that one will get the inheritance from the Father. One should know the Father (accurately in his practical living form), know the time, know oneself, then claim the inheritance (directly and practically in this very birth, not the next one). Now the Father has come (in corporeal form), He is giving the inheritance (to his children who are also in corporeal form)... this should be clear in the intellect, only then can one claim the inheritance (of nar to Narayan, in this very birth)." [Av 15.11.11]

mbbhat
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Re: How can the BKWSU keep lying to outsiders?

Post by mbbhat » 07 Jan 2013

Good.

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Re: How can the BKWSU keep lying to outsiders?

Post by nivi » 07 Jan 2013

fluffy bunny wrote: You see, right there, that's the problem. "For me" brings it right down to a subjective or relative truth. Neither you nor any BK can prove it to be true. It's only a faith. Bhakti.

You might say, "absolute faith", I suppose, but that is all.
Excuse me for sticking my nose in your conversation with mbhatt, but I would just like to share my 2 cents.
As an average Indian, I can certainly say our faith, regards and up bringing have a lot to do with how we view absolute truth.
From early age we listen to our parents and give regards to everything they say.
Even, if our parents will be WRONG, we still listen to them and don't argue. You may wonder WHY??
It's because of unconditional love parents have for children. Even if they are wrong their
heart and intention was in the right place and they want the best for their children. It is the say way when we come to Gyan we see
Baba as our Father and Mother and show regards to them because it is out of love we don't mind if if they make some mistake.

Nivi

mbbhat
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Re: How can the BKWSU keep lying to outsiders?

Post by mbbhat » 07 Jan 2013

Yes, that is what i had said-

Can FB soul estimate - from its concept of its own absolute truth-

1)One who is rich, healthy, can be happier?

Can it give equations and mathematical formulas for happiness and health?

2) Or perhaps then we will have to consider human beings also as machines made by science/technology and operate them like machines. Then I think- from the concept of absolute truth of FB soul- we should first expect or make human beings to become or act like machines and then learn or do discussions on truth.
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Aim is not to understand or learn the things and physical incidents. Aim is to develop 8 powers mentioned in Raja Yoga. It gives the best way to maintain and handle the relations.[/b]

Aim of God/Baba is also not to reveal God (else- he or the spiritual knowledge would have been present even in heaven). It is to prepare rosary- rudramala.

Then god will become silent and absent and then it will become Vishnumala (once again rosary= relation).

So- God teaches us how to maintain relation. And that is the absolute truth.

Even those who do not follow spirituality will finally realize to some extent and then will be able to maintain relation = sit together in peace at Paramdham for at least half a Kalpa.

Purity is the main thing is maintaining relation. Hence is it said- (spiritual) knowledge sits in pure intellect.
--------
Baba says- sach toh nach = one who is true will dance. I think no one can claim that this is wrong. See- this is highest level of truth.

So- real/absolute truth can be measured by the level of dance. Even in Bhakti, dance of shiv is the most famous.

So- dear FB soul,

We are interested in dancing and what all are needed to make us dance, Baba may use those techniques or such incidents or roles would have been prefixed in drama.

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fluffy bunny
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Re: How can the BKWSU keep lying to outsiders?

Post by fluffy bunny » 07 Jan 2013

nivi wrote:Excuse me for sticking my nose in your conversation with mbhatt, but I would just like to share my 2 cents.
Thank you Nivi, you actually make a very good and clear point, so thank you.

In short, what you are saying is that it is a cultural tendency (or sanskar by BK ideology) to believe that which is not true as true, and perhaps to show respect on the basis of age alone, which has transferred itself into Gyan.

What one would have to ask is "why, originally, did such a system come about?"

I guess it came about purely from practical matter of human survival at a time when to defy one's parent, or one's community leader, would essentially mean death either directly or via outcasting. That is to say, it is better to agree and bow rather than hold one's head up and have it cut off. I can see how many other tendencies would fit into this model, e.g. saying one thing and doing another, and not saying "no" when you mean it.

In philosophy, or the search for truth and understanding, one has to discard such social inhibitions.

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