All souls are number-wise

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sparkal
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All souls are number-wise

Post by sparkal » 24 Aug 2006

OK, lets give this baby its own thread. Lower numbers need not apply. :wink:

Is the drama and nature the same thing? Is the Soul World part of the drama? Are souls number wise in the Soul World? (according to drama, or effort) If a soul is anti-numberwise, does that make them communist?
Are pro numberwise souls capitalist? (both are isms/ twigs and leaves of the tree of world history, which catch light and sustain the tree, or set it on fire).

Spirituality gave birth to religion gave birth to politics. They all have purpose and practical meaning, within the drama. Spirituality is the only one of the 3 which can bring the souls of the world together as one. All in the universe is connected, even if everything and everyone seems fragmented. Some may think that communism was created in order to fail spectacularly, brainwashing the souls in Ravans kingdom of illusion that communism does not work. I don't buy the experiment idea. Capitalism cannot sustain itself and needs to prey on others to survive, which does not make for a practical or harmonious world, but is in total harmony within Ravans kingdom of illusion.

Does anyone out there think that God will favour the capitalist minded souls? Or communist for that matter? Does anyone out there take the "all are number-wise" statement to mean that the world is naturally predatory and capitalist (or communist)?

In the "Golden Age" (I cant speak for the Silver Age onwards) both of these social aspects will be in their complete form as part of the one-ness in Shivalaya, the land of Shiva, the future in terms of time, yet the Murli does not use the term: THEN, it uses the term: THERE, suggesting a place (or dimension?) and not a time in history, yet, it is our past. A very thin wall may now separate these two times which stand side by side, or front to back(words don't suffice), the end and the beginning, colliding slowly, merging like rivers.

In these times, many souls do not want to be branded with a number like some farm animal, they seek freedom, from their own weaknesses and past actions/ experiences, not to mention institutions of all kinds. So what does this number wise thing mean? Why would spiritual teachings put this notion out in the first place in a drama where all our lives are recorded within us pre drama. Am I a re- writable CD or pre recorded permanent type?

How does it look when I compare my own awareness of drama to God's?We could sit down, and ask our self, 'what do I want from the BKs or spirituality in general? It is a good question. The answer may not come as easily as we may think, if at all. The healthiest Brahmin will no doubt be the one who wants nothing from the BKs, and have pure desires spiritualy, number wise of course. Then we can have a clear heart. Don't compare the self to others. Don't let others define who you are or what you should be doing. Spirituality is about learning how to think(Third Eye) and not what to think(the dictates of others). I exclude teachers from beyond for argument sake.

What do I want from God? Power? Over what, or who? The self? Ones own unruly mind? To what degree do I want material gain from God and kingdoms etc.? There is nothing wrong with ruling a kingdom if you have the wherewithal to do so. Those who are closest to or, have modelled themselves on God may rule kingdoms. It may be worth noting that Shiva wants nothing, other than re newal to bring benefit to ALL souls. All. The most famous character of all time may also be the biggest revolutionary of all time. The revolution takes place within the self.

The template is there, take it or leave it. The BKs or any individual within the BKs is not the template, nor will it be found in Ravans kingdom of illusion. All you will get there is sugar coated lies which is bad for the spiritual teeth and body (like toli). But the world is amazing, so it is subjective, at any given moment within the individual even. For some it is old while others are fascinated by their hand as they hold it in front of their face, like baby's do, because they are short sighted and may not have been here so long. God considers these souls and loves them equally along with the "real" children :? .

I doubt there are any/ many new souls living in poverty or unhappiness. It is not black and white of course, but generally, the rich and powerful at this time are newer souls. If we want to play the number wise game out of political tendency, perhaps it is worth considering who influences me. My lokik parents even? TV? (put it in the bin) :shock: So we are being asked, all of us, the whole world, to model ourselves on the most compassionate being in the universe, who says that we souls are greater. Something which we no doubt deny, or may not understand, yet. An authority who is completely independent from the powers at be in this world, with their own agenda. To what degree is their agenda linked to Shiva's agenda? We don't really want to mess too much with God's agenda. Go and pick on someone your own size. (I am also confused by that one) .

Shiva may well be just another role which a soul plays in the drama as in- 'I am also in bondage to the drama'. Without being too literal, who is the soul who plays the role of Shiva? Sorry if that hurts, you will find that you will be a more mature soul for it though as the Bhakti view of God is vaporised or transformed. Shiva, a master role player able to serve all souls, chameleon like, yet remains aware that it is a drama, unlike us. The master psychologist who wants us to go higher than themself, because we can. We are THE master role players, if we give ourselves the chance, by befriending the self. Do not see yourself as others do, ever. If we hardly know our SELF(?) how can they, unless they know them self. If Shiva was to fall into weakness, who would liberate/ purify Shiva let alone the rest? Open mind.

The BK service ladder does not reach the roof, so there is still the need to sprout those wings and fly at some point or other, if we want to be a high number that is. Better now while in a body than later perhaps. The problem here is that, the more elevated the experience, the more all this no wise stuff disipates and all souls appear equal. So there is the knowledge, and there is the experience. Does anyone recall anything said along the lines that, all souls are equal except on the field of service? Service is a ladder, not wings. Knowledge and pure relationship(Yoga) are the wings. With one wing, we can fly round in circles very well. We cannot have Yoga without knowledge.

Just how difficult and complex can it be to simply LET GO? It is the answer. LET GO. We don't even have to create a new self, we are already it and there, eternally, we just need to simply LET GO and BE IT.

Are we really number wise in the Soul World :?:

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Re: All souls are number-wise

Post by howiemac » 24 Aug 2006

sparkal wrote: Are we really number wise in the Soul World :?:
Numbers are a construct of the rational (i.e. worldly) mind. There are no numbers in the Soul World.
Shiva may well be just another role which a soul plays in the drama
What else? Ancient mythology talks of a "watcher soul", a soul which never takes a body, but remains a detached observer of the drama of Maya. The BK's "Shiva" fits this bill - is this God? That is another question. But whatever, this watcher is a soul just like you or me, no different in essence. So either we are the same as this God (with variations in experience and role), or else we are all, including Shiva, parts of a more transcendant God. Either way, we are all divine. And I don't see numbers coming into it - that is a game for Brahma to play with his bhagats... :)

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Post by mr green » 25 Aug 2006

I used to be an heir-soul

Now I am just an arse-hole :lol: :lol:

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Post by bansy » 25 Aug 2006

Ha, you've by-passed the censorship, but it's funny joke hope Admin keeps it. :P

We're all either one or the other, depends on which part of the country you're from or whatever your accent.

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Post by worldpeace » 02 Sep 2006

Bansy Sister,
Reading your post, I am posting some questions which I was never able to convince myself with answers. Aren't we all inherently equal ... OK ... God is an exception.
  • So is not the amount of happiness or sadness be equally distributed among all the souls??
    (Or is happiness or sadness or the state of mind in itself an illusion, a relative thing??)
    So all the visibly extremely suffering souls(4 billion poor) have experienced extreme happiness sometime in the world drama??
    Shouldn't all the souls have expereienced heaven then??
    Or shouldn't the Deity souls experience extreme sadness??
    is not NUMBERWISE something that shouldn't be present in any perfect system?? And Soul World is a perfect system...
    How come NUMBERWISE crops out all of a sudden? Is it a property of the material world?
    Which is more important?? Our stay in the Soul World..which we will never conciously know..or our stay in the Material world??
    is not the Drama prejudiced towards 'non-33 crore' souls??
Anything in its natural state is defect free. So should be the Drama at its inception. So aren't the Deity souls/Brahmins the root cause of all the problems in this world?? The Deities are the first to fall in to body-conciousness, and naturally all the souls who take birth after them in the Dwapar Yug will be body-conscious. And above all Destruction is most fearsome for non-brahmins. Is Nature partial?? Is God partial??

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Post by john » 02 Sep 2006

worldpeace wrote:How come NUMBERWISE crops out all of a sudden? Is it a property of the material world?
What do you mean by all of a sudden?

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Post by bansy » 03 Sep 2006

Hi Worldpeace,
Thanks for the Qs.
These Qs and many others are what we'd like to understand, you'll get more participation and views by spliiting them up as "new posts" in whichever forum (BK, PBK, ex-BK etc). I think most members are free to post anywhere. You'd get a little bit more here, than trying to ask Seniors at a BK centre.
Aren't we all inherently equal..OK..God is an exception..
I'd like to believe so. We are even made to be equal to God.
So is not the amount of happiness or sadness be equally distributed among all the souls??

(Or is happiness or sadness or the state of mind in itself an illusion, a relative thing??)
Buddha said that all states are an illusion of the mind. They are perceptions, that don't actually exist. What is happiness for one is sadness for another. The sum of all expressions is therefore zero. Raja Yoga is interesting in that this imbalance comes from accumulation over several births so some people seem more happy than others, and vice-versa.
So all the visibly extremely suffering souls(4 billion poor) have experienced extreme happiness sometime in the world drama??

Shouldn't all the souls have expereienced heaven then??
Heaven and hell, from what I understand, are also states of mind. It helps to feel that heaven is a place "up there", but it could just be rightly "down here". With Raja Yoga, each soul has a unique role to play, and differing number of births, and being poor should be defined as spiritually poor, not materially poor.
Or shouldn't the Deity souls experience extreme sadness??
Who are the deities. Who wants to be a deity. To go from extreme bliss and joy, to extreme degradation ? Maybe it a role that you cannot choose. Those who go from the start have the longest time and so the greatest downfall.
is not NUMBERWISE something that shouldn't be present in any perfect system?? And Soul World is a perfect system...

How come NUMBERWISE crops out all of a sudden? Is it a property of the material world?
I wished I never learnt any maths. Then numbers wouldn't mean a thing. I think numberwise is a carrot-stick. God does not need to say he is number one does he ? But without a number to target for, maybe we don't put in efforts to better ourselves.
Which is more important?? Our stay in the Soul World..which we will never conciously know..or our stay in the Material world??
Have both, though it seems there's not much going on in the Soul World.
is not the Drama prejudiced towards 'non-33 crore' souls??
These souls maybe are unaware of it, so it doesn't matter. It does matter if you prejudice towards them. Do you wish to be part of the non-33 crore ?
Anything in its natural state is defect free ... so should be the Drama at its inception ... so aren't the Deity souls/Brahmins the root cause of all the problems in this world?? The Deities are the first to fall in to body-conciousness, and naturally all the souls who take birth after them in the Dwapar Yug will be body-concious

And above all Destruction is most fearsome for non-Brahmins..
Yes, it's all our fault. We're to blame.
Is Nature partial?? Is God partial??
Need more to reply.

My replies may not be complete or full. So do set up new posts, and so inspire others too.

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Post by worldpeace » 03 Sep 2006

howiemac wrote:Numbers are a construct of the rational (i.e. worldly) mind. There are no numbers in the Soul World.
So how come we become numberwise all of a sudden in Satyug?
bansy wrote:...being poor should be defined as spiritually poor, not materially poor.
When people are fighting to even survive, trying to live another day (you can see this in India, or in any developing/under-developed country)..will they think of Sprituality? Religion? God? Satyug? I do not think so.
Have both, though it seems there's not much going on in the Soul World.
But is not ultimately the seed stage is what we all try to experience in RajYoga..when we can remain in that state forever..then I feel that our stay at Soul World should be more important.
Do you wish to be part of the non-33 crore ?
Great question. Everybody can give their opinion/choice on this. Given an option that I can remain in Soul World forever - I would take it!! IGNORANCE IS BLISS after all :)

If 33 crore are going to be happy at the cost of others sorrow(read - destruction) or rather without any gains for the non-33 crore souls, is it worth a cause? Well, its God's direction ... my understanding should be poor ... Sweet Baba ... make destruction(death) as painless as possible for all your children ... :cry:
Yes, it's all our fault. We're to blame.
Hmmm ... this is interesting ... we (brahmins) are given a chance to settle their karma through a blissful way - Yoga inspite of being naughty to do all the sins first...and everybody else should go through only all the pains (disease,poverty,blame, etc) to settle their karma.
I think my question would be more specific now - Is Drama/God partial towards those 33 crore souls?
You'd get a little bit more here, than trying to ask Seniors at a BK centre.
I do not dare to ask any questions at the BK centre. Well, I do not even have the Guts to get back to the centre. I visit any centre very rarely as an anonymous person.In India, once a person leaves BK, its not that easy for him/her to maintain a relationship with the centre or even the BKs ...

Whenever I go to a centre, there is more sorrow than happiness ... a divine sorrow that I have left my home, left my family ... Yes, my eyes are filled with tears whenever I sit in Baba's room...
So do set up new posts, and so inspire others too.
I just felt like replying in the same thread as I did not want these questions to fade away. I will take some time ( I have more mundane works in the coming weeks) and set up threads for each questions ...

Peace

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Post by bansy » 03 Sep 2006

I will take some time( I have more mundane works in the coming weeks) and set up threads
Look forward to this sharing what concerns you, probably also concerns us all too.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 03 Sep 2006

worldpeace wrote:Given an option that I can remain in Soul World forever - I would take it!!
You do. As well. By the Knowledge, your state in the Soul World is infinitesimal within the infinite and eternal. It is an absolute, "forever" experience. No awareness of time and space to judge anything by. Just Oneness. But then, none of us know if the Knowledge is true and we won't until it is past the point of us being able to anything about it, perhaps beyong the point of us actually being conscious. It is all just faith based. Bhakti really.

How many BKs can say that they have seen and realised and 83 or their births? Know their number? And even if they say they have, how to qualify that as real rather then just a vision? Better to focus on being, the here and now, get your act together as best you can. Better to be number Zero, I say.

I must say that in comparison to the world, I am a lucky little prince as far as my karma has gone in this life. I cannot complain. Life offered me wonderful opportunities and if this is the worst I had, then neither it nor I was that bad. Ditto all the souls for whom this Knowledge was originally spoken for, mostly privileged Sindiwallas. What the hell did I do for such a high number in comparison to a mother what walks 15 miles each day just to fetch water for her children.?

Would I want to repeat it exactly? Would I want to repeat it once again? No thank you. But imagine if something really terrible had happened to you or your family, how would that hit you when you came to Gyan? A Palestinian in Israel, an unwanted girl child in China, a miner trapped underground, child soldier in Africa, a rape victim of which there must be some. Of course, the BKs would tell you, "Their Karma", but is it?

I can see the usefulness of these concepts in order to make individuals make efforts and plug the mind so it can Yoga with Shiv. Numbers seemed to be a fascination, a necessary "proof" for the Indian Bhagat, and a few Christian Sects too, But, in truth, do we know that they are true? Nope. One is just gambling one's soul on the basis of faith. The fascination for number comes up a lot in Hinduism and Buddhism, but who really "knows".

Why do we insist the Cosmo must be so neatly and accurately divide into symetric numbers when all the evidence around us states random asymmetry. 5,000 ... 16,108 ... 900,000 not 923,453 ... a Cycle of 43,830,000 hours exactly like a little Swiss watch ticking away ot a second more or a second less [but, oh woe, were there imperfect leap years in Sat Yuga!?! Did Earth's orbit wobble?]

Personally, I think it has more to do with the love of a Sindi business man for honest and accurate accounts. ;-) There are just mindplugs of no real meaning. Swallow it all, make the connection, spit it all out again. Beyond a certain point of consciousness, it is just all Bhakti luggage.

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Post by tinydot » 03 Sep 2006

ex-l, well said ... cannot speak better than that.

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