How to remember ShivBaba

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yudhishtira
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Post by yudhishtira » 02 Mar 2007

Truth; I am not sure exactly what you are saying here; could you please expand?

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Where is him?

Post by abrajuder » 02 Mar 2007

Hello Bansy,

This question is pretty nice to me ... because the answer has spoken a lot about how my relationship with ShivBaba is at any moment in time.

Sometimes I feel this point of light as almost unreachable ... other times I just cannot see it at all. Some days I feel it is here and now, and all depends on my level of consciousness/ attachment etc. I feel you and anyone else must open to personal experience on this regard. Why? Because Maya is build in our minds, and if you start building how this experience should be, that definitively will condition the actual experience.

I am getting with me a question ... where are you now? Where am I now? I think I will work with it to see what arises, but I feel is a very good question to churn ...

THANKS!

Abrajuder.

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john
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Post by john » 03 Mar 2007

Firstly: Welcome to the new BK members.

Secondly: Can you please ask a Senior Sister, Dadi, Didi how rememberance was done before 1969. I am fairly confident they will say in the body of BrahmaBaba. It is only afterwards that it was taught to remember ShivBaba in Paramdham. Can you please do this because you have access to ask where we don't?

Thirdly: In which Avyakt Vani (post-1969) is it explained how rememberance is to be performed/ practised? Why is the most important of subjects of rememberance not brought up before BapDada?

It is OK for us to say, well, I think this or that, but also we have to look for the proofs in Murli/Avyakt Vani and not just accept because some others (not God Father Shiva) have decided it is to be like that.

If any BKs can bring this evidence then it will be very useful to the forum discussions.

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Post by bansy » 03 Mar 2007

The issue of remembrance is great because we have to be karma yogis, and practice of remembrance during lokik and alokik life should be as consistent as if there were no differences. Whilst we may think of remembrance during the stillness of meditation, what happens when you are on a bus, or in the garden, or in a factory, or on a sportsfield, etc? Or even in the midst of gunshots in a battlefield such as present Iraq. How and where does remembrance fit in? Do we remember that Father Shiva is in a Chariot? In which case there will be some remembrance of the Chariot too. Or is Father Shiva solely in Paramdham?

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Post by mitra » 06 Mar 2007

You have to remember lord Shiva in the Soul World as a point of light with thought less stage

IBHS
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Post by john » 06 Mar 2007

Mitra wrote:You have to remember lord Shiva in the Soul World as a point of light with thought less stage
Mitra, what proof do you have or is it just heresay? Did you read?
Revised Sakar Murli 30/03/04
Quote:
"Om Shanti. The Father sits here and explains to you souls. He remembers the soul and also the body. The soul without a body cannot be remembered" ...

... "You ask: How can we remember Baba? Should we remember ShivBaba in the body of Brahma or in the supreme abode? Many have this question. Baba says: It is the soul that you have to remember. However, you would also definitely remember the body."
Can you show any Murli/Avyakt Vani where it says different? If not, then who's advice are you following?

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yudhishtira
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Post by yudhishtira » 06 Mar 2007

For me it is to do with relationship; I suppose I do think of the point of light, but I remember the love between us and our relationship.

Just visualising a point leaves me cold. Baba is always speaking about having all relationships with him; well I aint got there yet but there is definalty a strong thread of love between us; and its that feeling that I focus on and then it takes me to another depth of feeling and experience of being completly loved. I am experiencing this as I write! and that creates a feeling of silence and stillness, because complete love stills all desires and thoughts and that creates power and light; then truth and wisdom emerge. OK thats my guided commentary for the day!!

I cant quote you anything for that; but that is my experience.

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Post by mitra » 09 Mar 2007

John wrote:Can you show any Murli/Avyakt Vani where it says different? If not, then who's advice are you following?
i have read it in a Sakar Murli printed in 2003. I don't remember the date . Sorry for that. There it is said that even though you are sitting in front of Sakar baba, You have to remember him in the Soul World.

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Post by arjun » 09 Mar 2007

Sister Bansy wrote:The issue of remembrance is great because we have to be karma yogis, and practice of remembrance during lokik and alokik life should be as consistent as if there were no differences. Whilst we may think of remembrance during the stillness of meditation, what happens when you are on a bus, or in the garden, or in a factory, or on a sportsfield, etc? Or even in the midst of gunshots in a battlefield such as present Iraq. How and where does remembrance fit in?
"Aisey bhi nahee 5-7 ghantey baithkar padhna hai. Nahee, padhaai toh buddhi may hai ki hamko dehi-abhimaani ban-na hai. Chaltey firtey Yaad may rahnaa hai.....Baba ko Yaad karnaa hai. Aisey nahee yahaan sirf baithnaa hai. Chaltey firtey Yaad may rahnaa hai. Ek jagah baith Yoga karengey toh vah bhi hathyog ho jaayega. Tum toh kahaan bhi baitho Baba ko Yaad karo. Yaad say hee tumko ever healthy banaatey hain."

"It is not that you have to sit for 5-7 hours and study. No; the knowledge is contained in the intellect that we have to become soul conscious. We have to be in remembrance while walking and moving around ... We have to remember Baba. It is not that we have to just sit here. We have to be in remembrance while walking and moving around. If you sit at one place and remember then that would also be hathyog (obstinate Yoga). You can sit anywhere and remember Baba. You are made ever healthy through remembrance only." (revised Sakar Murli dated 1.12.06, pg 2 & 4 published by the BKs in Hindi and narrated by Father Shiv through Brahma Baba and translated into English by a PBK)

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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Post by john » 09 Mar 2007

Mitra wrote:I have read it in a Sakar Murli printed in 2003. I don't remember the date . Sorry for that. There it is said that even though you are sitting in front of Sakar Baba, You have to remember him in the Soul World.
Thank you Mitra.

I am sure if it is in Murli, then at some point it will pop up on the forum. If you ever do remember can you post the quote and Murli date please. What do you feel about the contrast with the other Sakar Murli 30/03/04, where a third of the Murli is describing how ShivBaba should be remembered in a body?

Also why did BKs before 1969 remember Shiva in the body of Brahma Baba?

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Post by arjun » 10 Mar 2007

Mitra wrote:I have read it in a Sakar Murli printed in 2003. I don't remember the date . Sorry for that. There it is said that even though you are sitting in front of Sakar Baba, You have to remember him in the Soul World.
"ShivBaba bhi kahtey hain mai pehley is (Sakar Brahma) ko samjhaata hoon. ShivBaba ka yah chaitanya home hai. Pehley-pehley yah (Brahma) seekhtey hain fir unsay adopted children numberwaar seekh rahey hain. Yah badee guhya baatein hain. Sadgati data patit-paavan khud aakar yah sab raaz samjhaatey hain. Aisey nahee ki vahaan say preranaa kartey hain. Vah toh yahaan aatey hain."

"ShivBaba also says that I initially explain to this one (corporeal Brahma). This is ShivBaba's living home. First of all this one (Brahma) learns. Then the adopted children are learning from him numberwise. These are very deep matters. The bestower of true salvation, the purifier of the sinful ones comes Himself and explains all these secrets. It is not that he gives inspiration from there. He comes here." (Revised Sakar Murli dated 23.2.07 published by the BKs in Hindi, and narrated by ShivBaba through Brahma Baba; English translation done by a PBK)

If, (from the point of view of BKs) Brahma Baba's body is the living home (Supreme Abode) of ShivBaba, then where is the need to remember Father Shiv as a point of light in the Soul World?

And if the above Murli point is to be read in 'present tense' then where is that living home?? Since BKs believe Gulzar Dadi to be the medium of Shiv and Brahma, then cannot she be considered to be the living home of ShivBaba? But I have not heard of any BK teacher telling the students to remember ShivBaba through Gulzar Dadi.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

Note: The words that appear within brackets in the Hindi version of the above Murli quote have been added by the BKs themselves and not by the translator.
[/i]

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mitra
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Post by mitra » 10 Mar 2007

:? This is a Sakar Point of Knowledge-not the Avyakt. That means before 1969, ShivBaba came to Brahma Baba's body to teach Brahmin Souls. Even at that time rememberance should be made in the Soul World as a point of LIGHT.

The Murli point should NOT be read as present tense. It is PAST TENSE. Gulzar Dadi is only a Chariot for Baba to have Avyakt Vani's. Only if we remember Shiv Baba as a Point of Light do our SINS gets INCINERATED.

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john
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Post by john » 10 Mar 2007

Mitra wrote::? This is a Sakar Point of Knowledge-not the Avyakt. That means before 1969, ShivBaba came to Brahma Baba's body to teach Brahmin Souls. Even at that time rememberance should be made in the Soul World as a point of LIGHT.
Mitra

Why don't you ask someone who was around before 1969, like a Senior Sister how rememberance was done then?

I think BKs assume way too much. I am still interested to know what you think about the Murli from which I quoted and how it contradicts with the idea of rememberance of Shiva in the Soul World?
Only if we remember Shiv Baba as a Point of Light do our SINS gets INCINERATED.
I don't think anyone is disputing remembering as a point of light, just where that point of light should be remembered.

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Post by arjun » 10 Mar 2007

Mitra wrote:Only if we remember Shiv Baba as a Point of Light do our SINS gets INCINERATED.
Dear brother,

Om Shanti. What is the difference between the remembrance of ShivBaba as a point of light in the Soul World by the BKs and the remembrance of God as a point of light by souls of other religions? Why don't they come to heaven when their method of remembrance is almost same as the way BKs remember?

Thanks,
OGS,
Arjun

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Post by bansy » 10 Mar 2007

Cannot recall if the final outcome of the some of the discussion in other threads about whether the daily morning revised Sakar Murlis are read in the present or past tense, but it seemed that BKs feel they are reading in the past tense, hence such morning Murli classes are basically scriptures.

Not surprisingly, many BKs fall asleep in class, after all the same 5 year notes are just simply being recirculated. Maybe this is why Murlis are not easily available because if a BK was to get hold of the entire bunch, then there is really no need for that soul to attend a centre for classes at all. After all, for BKs, Father Shiva is in Paramdham, BrahmaBaba is in the Subtle Region, and the Murli is in your hand, why need a centre?

Basically, what Murli points are present and what points are past ? Why read a history book in class ? Maybe it is useful to learn about the history of the Yagya and there are good lessons to learn, and so, why not bunch up all the Sakar Murlis into one huge volume, give it out (students may be willing to pay for the costs, I will for my copy), and read them like a history text book, without having to go to the centre each morning, maybe having to pay for the transport, wasting time on the way, when all one needs is 3 feet within one's home.

I agree, Avaykt Vanis are a different issue, and are present tense since the Chariot DG is present. If the Avyakt Vanis are present, and the Sakar Murlis are past, then may as well have daily morning Avaykt Vani classes instead of only once a week on a Sunday.

Personally I like both the Sakar Murlis and Avyakt Vanis, but I would prefer them more if the BKWSU officially explained the confusion about the present and past tenses of the versions. I also appreciate them more when they are read several times in full, not making points along the way. How many folks here just scribble down points during the class, which means they are not really listening to the morning class but just dictation. My intellect is just not that fast. :oops: I find it easier to sit back and listen, whilst everyone else is scribbling away. I just jot down keywords. However, I need the Murli/Vanis afterwards to go deeper into the points.

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