Sevak Ram, Piu Vanis and the history of Om Mandli

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uddhava
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Sevak Ram, Piu Vanis and the history of Om Mandli

Post by uddhava » 20 May 2006

The BK website says on their 'History' page http://www.BKWSU.com/about/orgins.html says
BKWSU wrote:"a respected and wealthy member of their community, Dada Lekhraj experienced a series of profound visions in 1936. The visions revealed spiritual truths about the nature of the soul and God, the Supreme Soul."
The website doesn't seem to mention the Sakar Murlis - does anyone know how soon after 1936 did Dada Lekhraj start receiving Sakar Murlis?

On another thread, John mentioned the 'five year cycle' of Murlis. I know this came up on XBKChat but just remind me - does this mean that Dada Lekhraj received daily Murlis between some time after 1936 and his departure in 1969 (perhaps 30 years) of which all except five years worth have been lost?

Is there any rhyme or reason to the five years that have been preserved, I mean are they for example the last five years 1964 - 1969 or are they just random survivors?

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Post by howiemac » 20 May 2006

Uddhava wrote: Is there any rhyme or reason to the five years that have been preserved, I mean are they for example the last five years 1964 - 1969 or are they just random survivors?
As i understand it they are the last 5 years ie '64 to '69, the idea being that as the knowledge was advancing and being formulated and refined over the years, Murlis prior to '64 were not considered to be accurate - ie some of the ideas expressed in them had moved on - eg the form of Shiva and the soul was though to be thumb-sized and then became an infinitessimal point of light.

The obvious observation here is that the contents of the Murlis (Sakar Murlis in partiular, but Avyakt Murlis also) cannot be regarded as absolute fact or absolutely accurate - they are not the perfect words or perfect knowledge of God, whatever the BKs may like to tell us. I heard that even Brahma Baba said that if experience proved Gyan to be wrong then Gyan would have to be revised. This is one of the reasons for churning - to advance the knowledge - this has been lost along the way by the BKs as they have gradually locked themselves in rigid dogma and institutionalisation (as, it seems, religious organisations do..).

The Murlis are not scripture and do not claim to be infallible. They are lectures or classes by Lehkraj aka Brahma Baba. Some of the words may indeed be "channelled" but surely not by God (who is incorporeal always, and so beyond words), and many of the teachings may be inspired by God. I have no doubt that Brahma Baba was (and is) Godly. But to claim that "God speaks" is, to my mind, spin. You can fool some of the people all of the time....

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Post by uddhava » 21 May 2006

howiemac wrote: The Murlis are not scripture and do not claim to be infallible. They are lectures or classes by Lehkraj aka Brahma Baba.
I thought that the Murlis did claim to be infallible in the sense that it was God speaking, and so the knowledge was from the horse's mouth, not second hand interpretation of dusty old scriptures. I thought this was the whole point of BKWSU and the reason for taking the Murli knowledge seriously.

For example the world being 5000 years old - the average Indian is clearly not in a position to know such a thing. Similarly would we take seriously the opinion of an Indian 'inspired', in some vague sense, by God? Surely not - hence I thought that the reason that the 5000 years is taken seriously by BK's is that this figure comes from God himself, and he alone could know such things. Hence it is called know-ledge, not guesswork or think of a number. :wink:

Anyway here are some Sakar Murli quotes copied from XBKC concerning the claims made in the Sakar Murlis ...

03/02/03
No human being can say this. No one would have the knowledge to say this. Only the Father says: My children, I teach you Raja Yoga and make you into the masters of heaven.
05/02/03
You children know that the Father is personally sitting in front of you ... You children know that you are personally sitting in front of the Supreme Father, the Supreme Soul ... The Father has come and explained the right things to you.
06/02/03
Sweet children…the Father, the Incorporeal Ocean of Knowledge is Himself the One who is teaching you ... the incorporeal Supreme Father, the Supreme Soul, is speaking to you through this body ... Shiv Baba is teaching you ... the Supreme Father, the Supreme Soul, is teaching you through the mouth of Brahma. The Father has come. God definitely has to come to the devotees ... This One is the unlimited Father and He sits here and explains to you children. When you children meet Sannyasis etc., you explain that the Supreme Father, the Supreme Soul, the Ocean of Knowledge, is teaching you. The Father explains: Children, very little time remains.
07/02/03
It is the Father who is teaching you. God speaks: I teach you Raja Yoga and change you from human beings into deities ... the Father sits here and establishes heaven through Brahma ... God is personally in front of you. He says: I come every cycle to establish heaven. The Father sits here and explains these wonderful things.
08/02/03
A soul cannot give knowledge to a soul. Only the Supreme Soul, Shiva, sits here and gives knowledge to Brahma, Saraswati and you children, the lucky stars. That is why this is called Godly knowledge. God Himself has come here to establish this religion. When He enters this one, He names him Brahma ... God says: I give the name Brahma to the one whose ordinary body I enter.
09/02/03
Only the Supreme Father, the Supreme Soul, who makes you Satopradhan, teaches you Raja Yoga and gives you the knowledge of the cycle ... The Father is the Ocean of Knowledge. He sits here and gives you children the knowledge of the beginning, the middle and the end of the world. Human beings don't know anything. The Supreme Father, the Supreme Soul, who is the living Seed of this tree, has the knowledge of the whole tree. He alone is giving you this knowledge.[/color]

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Post by uddhava » 21 May 2006

If I remember correctly, the BK view may not be that the entire Sakar Murli is spoken by God but that it is a combination of God and Dada Lekhraj but we don't really know which is which. For me, this is in danger of ending up as a dog's dinner. For example the world being 5000 years old - we need to know whether this part specifically is spoken by God (in which case it should be taken seriously) or not.
howiemac wrote:The obvious observation here is that the contents of the Murlis (Sakar Murlis in partiular, but Avyakt Murlis also) cannot be regarded as absolute fact or absolutely accurate
It would be interesting to know the views of various BK's on what they think the Murli is. Howiemac you have mentioned what your view is now but do you recall what it used to be, I mean did you at one time hold the official BK view on this?

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Post by bansy » 21 May 2006

It would be interesting to know the views of various BK's on what they think the Murli is.
I was told that whenever you listen to or read the Murli, then you have to "imagine" it was Dada Lekhraj (Brahma Baba) sitting in front of you speaking at the current time since he was the Chariot, and because this is still the Confluence Age and the Confluence Age did not stop in 1969. So you have to read whatever Murli, e.g. even today's morning, as if it was as it fresh today as back then, and not mind if this was 1967 or 1997 whatever.

So the Murli is God's flute with Dada Lekhraj adding his interpretation. That seemed and still seems easy to accept for most who come in contact with BKs at the start of their BK journey, after all the intoxication is probably at it's highest because you had just been "long lost but now found" children.

Now the problem comes for those who had wished/still wishing to study deeper, after all Gyan is one of the 4 subjects for each pukka BK and we want to be obedient children to God, is that we began to run out of material to study and/or we forget and cannot understand parts of the Murli so need to ask, or points were repeating, or the Avyakt Murlis from BapDada seasonal meetings through the body of Dadi Gulzar did/do not add to Gyan but give more essence only to seva (service). We also begin to find out there are only 5 years of such Sakar Murlis, and these are getting revised with possibly parts missing during each revision (as claimed by PBKs), and BKs are not allowed access to the originals even though we are his children and the Murlis are part of "inheritance" but that needs approval by the BK administration. So the Murli is still God's flute, except no BK dares to try to interpret them the way Dada Lekraj did when he was alive.

(In adding to the last sentence, and I think the practice is still happening, the BK on the gaddi reading the Murlis in class to occasionally intervene with his/her interpretation of the Murli, and asking the audience as if to wake them up. This I found irritating, as it meant that person understood the Murli fully. Thus the person on the gaddi, is on par with Dada Lekhraj).

So will we get anything fresh ? Will Shiva pass messages and knowledge to Brahma Baba (soul) who then enters the human Chariot Dadi Gulzar about more details of the things to come (e.g. destruction), or will Shiva enter the human Chariot of Virendra Dev Diksit. Or maybe even both ?

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Post by howiemac » 21 May 2006

Uddhava wrote: Howiemac you have mentioned what your view is now but do you recall what it used to be, I mean did you at one time hold the official BK view on this?
No - I reacted against the Sakar Murlis from day one and was never able to accept them literally, or take much value from them - I did accept the Avyakt Murlis as accurate throughout my BK days (on the basis that Brahma Baba was "complete" and "perfect" and in angelic form by the time he was speaking them), but having read the majority of the Avyakt Murlis several times each, and still reading them to this day I have come to the conclusion that they too are peppered with Brahma Baba's own dogmatic religious-organisation-building agenda... I did think originally that the Avyakt Murlis were constantly inspired by Shiva, but do not believe that now - though I do not accept the PBK view that Shiva is not involved in them, and can not imagine ever accepting that view, having experienced drishti from BapDada on three occasions. - drishti unmatched in my experience.
bansy wrote:So will we get anything fresh ? Will Shiva pass messages and knowledge to Brahma Baba (soul) who then enters the human Chariot Dadi Gulzar about more details of the things to come (e.g. destruction), or will Shiva enter the human Chariot of Virendra Dev Diksit.
I am willing to bet my inheritance that Brahma Baba won't give us anything fresh through Gulzar ... the Avyakt Murlis have become progressively duller ever since 1969, as he speaks to a bigger and bigger audience and dumbs down in order to reach them...

As for Diksit, he may well come up with interesting stuff, but I for one will take it all with a pinch (or several) of salt. :)

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Post by john » 22 May 2006

For me reading the Murlis was like reading a letter from the author Shiva. It's like Brahma is not there even though it was from his mouth. For me it's a direct link with the mind/intellect of Shiva. Avyakt Vanis always seemed different yet similar. When I read Murli clarifications I get that same sense of direct link with Shiva.

I always assumed and still do that it is Shiva speaking and using the body/ organs of the Chariot. Now I am trying to investigate whether this was a good assumption and is in fact true. Yet nobody seems to be able to clearly say what is going on. I am hoping for some simple clear coherent answers from the PBKs, after all Baba (Virenda dixit) must be able to give a clear answer if he is a Chariot. How much is Shiva's knowledge and how much is it the Chariot's interpretation?

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Post by aimée » 30 May 2006

If I may give my point of view in this matter as a PBK...

Originally, the Murlis were of around 6 dense pages, without essence, questions, answers, then afterwards essence for dharna, then blessing, and finally slogan. So if you take out all this stuff, that was not there originally, and is a addition made by human beings and not ShivBaba (except the blessing but it was not part of the Murli), what is left? a squeleton, a ghost of what it was.

So what about what was originally there? It has been taken out by human beings, and not ShivBaba, otherwise he would not have spoken it first place. For which purpose?... the human introduction to the Murli is there to lead our understanding of the Murli. the conclusion is to insist on what we should take from that Murli. Why then does Baba tell us that Gyan is important, and we should churn it? Why do they think they are entitled to direct our thoughts? Or do they have anything to hide?

Now if I may give the PBK version, as simply as possible, even if this does not fit in your vision of the reality, just take it as another story:
When Dada Lekhraj got his visions, no one could explain them to him. The last person he thought of was his business partner called Sevakram, someone who was so reliable that he gave him half of his benefits in exchange of which he would do all the work. At that time, in a very specific way, I simplify, Shiv entered that person to explain the visions. This seems more realistic than the official version, where after searching, Lekhraj Kirpalani suddently have Shiv in him uttering "I am Shiv" etc. , what would have been enough to make him at once understand the meaning of his visions.
There is then a whole period when the "Murlis" called then the Peo's Vanis, or Piu's Vanis, are said by the Chariot Sevakram. Other important personages are involved in this story, but I have to cut the story short. I maybe can expand in the PBK department.

From 36 to 51, when the Sevakram (41) and his group have all gone, the official Murlis start, from 51 to 69, when Lekhraj Kirpalani leaves the body. those are the "18 chapters of the Gita". The one who I now consider as the new Chariot, Virendra Devi Dixit, gives the clarification of those Murlis, which started from 76. The BK authorities managed to get hold of those, and accordingly, to cut bits of the Murlis that could be too compromising to them. So I don't know which 5 years Murlis have been taken for study, but I do believe that any Murlis given by ShivBaba through the Chariot of Lekhraj Kirpalani are valid. Baba says that if this one (the Chariot) makes a mistake, then he takes the responsibility. Now it is the same for the new Chariot.

The problem comes from the fact that the children got attached to the Chariot (Lekhraj Kirpalani) and put aside God himself. If the attachment went to the knowledge, then the second Chariot would have been accepted. I think the BK authorities are genuine but they are blinded by their attachment. Why would God himself be dependant on one Chariot, and not able to continue his work in a practical way?

My opinion on the Avyakt Vanis, is that it is only Lekhraj Kirpalani alias Krishna who is teaching dharna, in remembrance of God. Not a single sentence he has said goes against the Murlis, it does match totally. He comes out of attachment for his children, and because he is called.

In the Murli of the 25.3.73 p4, Baba says "Whenever Father comes, does anyone come to know about it? No. One cannot even know." When it is through Dadi Gulzar, BapDada is called in advance, and then there is meditation, and then there is a jolt. This is really visible. But just to let you know that Krishna has a crucial role in this epic, he is in fact the protagonist (heroine) with Ram/Virendra (hero). He is still playing his part now in the Advance Party.

This is anyway what I think.

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Post by jim » 30 May 2006

john wrote:I am hoping for some simple clear coherent answers from the PBKs, after all Baba(Virenda dixit) must be able to give a clear answer if he is a Chariot. How much is Shivas knowledge and how much is it the chariots interpretation.
I wouldn't hold out your hopes too much John!

I think the whole "who is really speaking" question goes to very essence of knowing the part of ShivBaba. I wouldn't take anyone's explanation for it if I were you; rely on your own churning/study/investigation. The result will be the basis of your remembrance / determine the extent to which you become Manmanabhav / your inheritance. It's the key to the whole game (I think).

Jim

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Where did Jagdish get his information?

Post by clay » 14 Jun 2006

Om Shanti,

I have just been reading a thread on the BK section that say's we need another Jagdish to answer questions, or words to that effect.

In fact Jagdish got his knowledge (the Advanced Knowledge) from Verenda Dev Dixit when he was a BK . This was before he (Virendra Dev Dixit) was thrown out of the BKs by Dadi Prakashmani.

A brother upon taking the Advanced Knowledge went to Dadi Prakashmani and asked her this question. When the Advanced Knowledge is the truth why do the BKs not acknowledge it? Dadi Prakashmani waved him away and told the brother to discuss it with Jagdish.

Jagdish claimed 'authorship' of the knowledge that was published in his name, he recieved the status, but the truth is that it was Virendra Dev Dixit who gave him the advanced knowledge.

All the clarifications were and are still being sent to Mount Abu as far as I know. The "top brass" BKs know all about the Advanced Knowledge but it is supressed.

Good Wishes

Clay

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Post by john » 14 Jun 2006

Clay wrote:Jagdish claimed 'authorship' of the knowledge that was published in his name, he recieved the status, but the truth is that it was Virendra Dev Dixit who gave him the advanced knowledge.
Very interesting!

Do you know any particular bits of knowledge Jagdish put forward which wasn't with the BKs before?

Also I've heard two claims being made to the soul being thought of as a point of light as opposed to a thumb, one from Jagdish and one from Mama. Well I've not heard them myself, but have read others making the claims. Does anyone know who realised what?

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Post by bansy » 15 Jun 2006

When the Advanced Knowledge is the truth why do the BKs not acknowledge it? The "top brass" BKs know all about the Advanced Knowledge but it is supressed.
This is something still not clear. You're indicating that if the top BKs know of the Advanced Knowledge and thus cannot become the 8/108 jewels, then what is their purpose ? Do they fear God (Dharamraj) or not ?

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Re: Where did Jagdish get his information?

Post by uddhava » 15 Jun 2006

clay wrote:This was before he (Virendra Dev Dixit) was thrown out of the BKs by Dadi Prakashmani.
Dear Clay, Om Shanti. Do you have any detail about Virendra Dev Dixit being thrown out?

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Post by john » 15 Jun 2006

Bansy wrote:his is something still not clear. You're indicating that if the top BKs know of the Advanced Knowledge and thus cannot become the 8/108 jewels, then what is their purpose ? Do they fear God (Dharamraj) or not ?
They might know about it but do they believe it? Also whilst Brahma still comes to Madhuban and refers to himself as BapDada why should they believe it.
Uddhava wrote:Om Shanti. Do you have any detail about Virendra Dev Dixit being thrown out?
There are lots of details about it on the history or life story section of the polish/English PBK website.

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Post by uddhava » 15 Jun 2006

John wrote:There are lots of details about it on the history or life story section of the polish/English PBK website
OK, sorry, have you got a URL?

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