Post-BK Quicksand

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Post by fluffy bunny » 06 Jul 2007

adikarisoul wrote:The relationship has always been extremely painful expecially in connection with that bunch of bitter, suspicious, jalous, manipulative, restless and crazy people that are "the jewels of the BK Clan" in my country. And there must be a reason if, after 25 years of service in this country, the regular BKs are maybe less than they were at the beginning.
I will get back to you later but, boy, the BKWSU really has to program in some felxibility to its system and not just allow, but suggest to folks that they need to take time out for their own and the organization's sake.

There are still living in the trauma of their own past in my opinion. The crazy period at the beginning, the war, Destruction .. destruction ... destruction, and "keeping up face" in little else than a sort of snobbery/superiority complex.

I hear what you say about your friend but I would still encourage it for him, if nothing to bring that anger right up to the surface where it can be dealt with. We are here primarily for ex-BKs and to deal with ex-BK issues.

I know for me, discovering all the historical revisionism, Murli re-writing and big business hypocrisy REALLY helped me put things into perspective about these people. Reading the old material and watching the like of the Vishnu Party circus also really put into context where their (the original BKs and SS) heads were anda re at. The environment they come out of.

For me, I have sort of resolved their god as a necessary god for their people but not a god for all people. They appear to need all sorts of resolutions for their Hinduism, rewards for their egos, and whips and chains to keep them in order. I find it all too gross for me.

Yes, even tuning in via this forum sometimes really drags me down too BUT even that is good to strengthen by resolve. To be able to enter into their gravitation field and then be able to exit it at will, as if it was only one planet in a vast universe.

I'd also be concerned that your friend had not shared or expressed his negative fields with anyone except for you ... especially given the history. Please excuse yourself from any blame, you meant well but we set up to do so by them. The generals take the karma of the ordinary soldiers on the frontline.

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Post by di » 07 Jul 2007

Hugs to you Adrikarisoul,

I hope what I say here is appropriate, and I never have been in your position of leaving the BKs. I have, however, been in the position of a great loss and redirection that puts me in a place of feeling lost, alienated and my whole future, which was built (I thought) on rock, taken away from me. So ...

A confession, I am one of those people who are addicted totally to the rotten filthy habits of smoking, and I hate it but am in the process of giving it up - no, not giving it up, gaining my independency, health etc back - and this is even at this traumatic time in my life. My point is ... up to reading a book on giving up smoking in the last few days, I had not been able to find a way to get my head or my emotions to still deal with my ex's involvement and him betraying me for them. And a book on how to stop smoking has!

Basically, it turned my thinking around. We, as addicts or people that are dependant, think that we need, or cannot function without our 'fix'. And this book continues to explain as smokers we are brainwashed into a certain style of thinking. As the book progressed it explained how 'smoking' was, in fact, the problem. Withdrawl is such a difficult thing to go through, and we think, I wouldn't be going through this and I would feel better if I could have a cigarette, but in fact we wouldn't be going through this if we hadn't had that first puff.

The problem was not the withdraw. The problem was the cause and we keep looking at the cause as the cure, as the means to feel 'good' again. The fact was put forward that non-smokers did not need a puff to be able to concentrate, to relax, to enjoy after food ... so the ciggie was, in fact, an illusion of being of benefit, of helping us to relax, to give us a pick up, etc etc.

It was doing just the opposite, because of being able to enjoy what we were doing and cherishing it, we were thinking about the next smoke, or escape from "the demon in the tummy" that horrible empty feeling in the gut, in our inner selves, that craves satisfying, and nothing but what actually gave it to us in the first place would make that horrible emptyiness go away ... but it only works for a short time before it needs feeding again.

Then it hit me ... I theoretically applied the same principals of the smoking with my relationship (or how it ended up) why couldn't I get past this point in my life? Why couldn't I accept what I had believed and given everything for wasn't real? That I had been deceived? That I knew there was a beautiful decent person inside who became so weak, treated me in such a despicable manner and understand how they could do so?

Then, reading the book, I understood. I was desperate for him to make it better, for him to fix it, to give what he had promised and to give my life back as I knew it. Logically, I knew it wasn't going to happen, but emotionally I couldn't get past it. Until I realised ... I was wanting my 'fix'. I was wanting the actually cause of the problem to come back. I was wanting to not go through the withdrawl side effects because they were just too awful ... UNTIL I realised that for me, I was just wanting a psuedo cigarette.

I could apply the principle of my addiction to ciggies to my 'addiction' to my relationship ... and, no, it is more involved than that of course but it layed the foundations for me to now go forward. For the first time in years, I now start to feel a little like 'me' again ...

I did not have this problem before, but I certainly have worked out why I am having it now ... and I don't want to have this horrible withdrawl and this pain in my life. All I was doing was expecting the cause to fix the problem ... The main thing is, now I know what i thought was what i wanted to happen was actually what was making me feel so rotten. I don't want it anymore. Just as i want to smoke less and less. (Well the pangs hit every now and then, but I don't cry in the shops anymore! :wink:).

I don't know if this makes any sense, and more than happy for you to remove this post if you like, I just know this line of thinking worked for me. It made sense, and I could apply it to any problem or issue in my life ... It made me work out what the real problem was. My mind has a way of telling me what i want to think. The beauty of it is ... the withdrawl is almost instantly painless ... not nearly so much of a problem as before!

I hope I haven't offended you in any way, or even if this is applicable, but given the misleading and outright deceptions of the BK organisation, and from what i have seen the absolute dependency on them, I could draw a parallel that this line of thinking could help.

I'll be honest, it was very difficult to be this honest with myself, I did not like the answers I gave myself but suicide is the furthest thing from my mind now. I am beginning to be a caring mum again and am starting to eagerly look forward to the rest of my life ... all through a book on how to give up smoking. I am really worried I've stepped out of line here and commented on something I've never experienced but if it helps, it was worth the risk.

I forgot to mention, one of the main points of the book was FEAR. What was it that I feared so much in giving up? In order to do that i had to work out what in fact I was getting out of it. That is where it became hard to be totally honest with myself and I had to put my first thoughts - my excuses- and come up with the answer; nothing. I convinced myself I 'enjoyed' an aspect of a certain thing, but all I was doing was justifying to myself and denying what I feared I would lose if I gave it up.

Now, I am finding the dried up well that was me is now getting back in touch with that never ending supply of love, of being able to do anything for anyone without much of a problem coming back. I thought I had lost it forever and the ability to truely care for anyone or anything. I just had to give up what I thought was the cure but in fact was the cause.

I found I could apply this model to the whole conundrum and also the smallest aspect of the issues I was dealing with. There is good and bad in everything. It was just a matter of working out each aspect, then looking at the total picture and seeing it as a whole. Then I knew, deep in my heart what the answer was ... and the best thing! The big black hole, the big pool of quicksand became something I can now start stepping around.

Warmest love, Di

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We, as addicts or people that are dependant ...

Post by abrahma kumar » 07 Jul 2007

Di, it makes very good sense. Thanks for the post. Let's see if any BK will lift its head out of the oblox and testify that; I, too, as an addict, am i person that IS dependant.

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Post by adikarisoul » 08 Jul 2007

Dear ex-l, Jud, Abek, Alladin, Pilatus, Joel, Paul and Di,

Thank you for your care and for sharing your thoughts and experiences with me.

I went through all your messages several times and in each and every of them I found some of that TRUTH that could possibly heal my hurting self.

You know I hate being completely alone, as I am in these days, even though I realize that it's necessary in order to think deeply and freely, and see what I have to do at this point in my life. But I strongly miss the company of friends as I over the year have distanced my self from my pre-Gyan ones and now they're all gone ...

Why? Because I was told I had to get over my attachment to them (as to any other human being) and also because I did not have time for them. With a lokik job, a center, classes, Karma Yoga etc., I did not have much free time and, of course, never in the evening!

Di, I am so glad you're getting better! Could you please let me know the name, editor etc. of the book you're reading about giving up smoking? I've the feeling it could help me and my partner to.

Thank you all from my heart for your patience and your encouragement. I'll let you know if I manage to free myself from the present quicksand.

LOVE,
ADI

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Post by di » 08 Jul 2007

Hello dear Adi,

the book is Allen Carr's Easy Way to Stop Smoking, the website is allencarr.com. There is a link there that shows the world wide editors in case you have trouble finding the book.

I think the basis of the book is we know when we are compelled to do something and continue doing it, even though we know it is having very negative effects on our lives. This is due to 2 reasons ... addiction and brainwashing/conditioning/programing.

The problem is not in recognizing that what we are doing is to our detriment, nor is it not knowing that it is something needs to be looked at, but rather getting our heads and hearts into a place where we actually really WANT to do something about it. In order to do that, we have to look at ourselves and when we say ... but I like this aspect or I like that ... look at the reasons behind why we are saying it.

The approach takes away the pink fairy floss that prevents us from looking objectively and truthfully are what we are actually doing to ourselves, and others, and the reasons why. I have just applied this method to my situation and, from an outsiders point of view, applied it to what my ex has done. Finally something makes some sense to me.

The whole problem is he would have to really want to stop BKs but cant because of his addiction to it, and his programing from the centre, retreats and intense meditation (like going to intense sessions of hypnotherapy every day) gives him all the reasons not to stop. There are aspects of it he loves and doesn't want to stop. Aspects that from an observer are highly suspect and unhealthy and has cost him everything of value in his life.

I can see several distinct types of people on this forum ...
  • the very committed BK, PBK etc
    the non BKs
    the ex-BKs that really worked out they wanted to stop.
    and the BKs that are wanting to get some control of their lives again, stop the dysfunctional aspects of this sect but not really being able to decide to leave. They know its not good for them, they know the lies and deceit, but cant quite take the step.
Ask me, I know what you feel. I am addicted to smoking and can give you all the reasons why I 'enjoy' it and don't want to give it up. There are millions of people who can be spiritual and close to God and lead good productive lives without being a BK. Just as there are many alcoholics who have fulfilling relationships, work, successful lives and stay sober without being a BK. Just as there are many saintly people who are not neccessarily celibate nor vegetarians. Just as there are all those other people who don't smoke and can relax, concentrate and handle stress without smoking ... fact is ... they do it better!.

I know it is more complex than this simple equation, but I cannot find any argument to discredit this thinking. I really hope I don't sound like I am lecturing, just humbly putting to you a way of thinking that has helped me personally.

Am thinking of you and sending hugs to you. Much love, Di.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 08 Jul 2007

di wrote:There are millions of people who can be spiritual and close to God and lead good productive lives without being a BK. Just as there are many alcoholics who have fulfilling relationships, work, successful lives and stay sober without being a BK. Just as there are many saintly people who are not neccessarily celibate nor vegetarians. Just as there are all those other people who don't smoke and can relax, concentrate and handle stress without smoking ... fact is ... they do it better!.
Ha!

So what? ... NEW SOULS! (BK joke).

You might not get that Di. I will try to explain. It is kind of the ultimate BK bail out, on a par with the ultimate BK insult ... which is "Bhagat" meaning devotee (or non-BK religious person).

If someone is going well, has no problems, has their life in order, in talented, good-looking or living in comfort; there is a cut out clause for them. NEW SOULS.

It means that they are only first, second birth ... recently incarnated (and hence worthless) souls who are having their Golden Age today in this Iron Aged nigh End of the World hell. Unlike special worthy 84 birth BK Brahmins souls, how due to their 63 lives of karma has having bad luck and problems.

So, alll those wonderful people you mention who can hold their lives together, do good etc without the BKWSU SS ... "new souls". It makes their success far easier to dismiss.

Can you analyse that from a non-BK point of view?

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Post by di » 09 Jul 2007

Analyse that? Easy, its BK BS. :roll: Ho Hum. Need to put my Wellington boots on to wade through it.

No, but seriously, the opposite way of thinking (i.e. mine :D and all of us other new souls out there) is that a well grounded, wise, balanced spiritual person is an 'old' soul. One who has had many lifetimes and learnt well, who has had their times to progress and become closer to God through living. As in Brian Weiss's books, first being "Many lives, many Masters".

Glad to hear I am a newbie though and don't have many lifetimes of sins on my soul, i mean really ... people believe this? Could it possibly be because we work, study extremely hard? Because we have goals and directions, and keep slogging away at the challenges that are thrown our way? A little bit of credit where it is due please.

Just like the time ex came home and was high as a kite, could have been taking cocaine the way he was ... when I said 'you are off your face, high as' his reply was, "you only have a problem with it because you don't feel the same". I'd be rich if I had been given money every time I heard a druggie say that. Now, how is that for an admission under the influence of let's get high on meditation.

Seeing God? Very debatable, I've seen plenty of people on drugs due to my job, they used to see god as well! And he was exactly the same. Good ole endorphines, highly addictive, let you believe any old c*** you are told when under the euphoria. You know, it was as pleasant as being around someone who had been drinking or taking drugs ... not nice, but he thought he was wonderful and spiritual.

Due to the BK and Jehovah Witnesses etc way of thinking, what's the point of it all? You might as well neck yourself now. Its all meaningless and a waste of time. I personally hate going around in circles, accomplishes nothing. Just wondering, seeing how the Jehovah Witnesses movement started early last century, is a doomsday cult and has many similarities as BKs, did Lekhraj Kirpalani steal some JW and throw it in the mix too?

There is not one thing in this whole system that is logical. The only thing that has been proven to date is what they have said is God's truth is false. It simply did not happen. They have been proven, God has proven the BK system wrong! Untrue! What more do people need? Nothing, and I mean nothing, has come true. They just keep re writing and editing to make the BS more credible under the influence.

As I said, anything you repeatedly enforce in your subconscious, when off your face, you will believe and it will make sense to you. No matter how ridiculous or false it is. Moreso, you will like the feeling that much you will do anything to go back for more, and let it cost you everything, just so you can get more of the same. On top of that, add a whole heap of conditioning to justify the injustices you are about to commit and the unethical way you will begin to treat other people ... you know, the ones you are supposed to love unconditionally and not cause sorrow. Yup, makes sense.

This is a lokik (and I am proud of it!) point of view and, as a smoker, I don't see the forest for the trees and my mind will twist everything to suit my addiction and conditioning ... well you can finish the rest of the sentence and apply it to where it may fit.

Many apologies to you Adi, this is not personally directed at you. I have found the souls that end up being BKs some of the most beautiful, caring people I have met, but i think they were already that way, not as a result of the BK experience. Sorry to digress Adi (but maybe some is of merit here), ex-l made me do it :wink:.

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Post by paulkershaw » 09 Jul 2007

joel wrote: I think you may be suffering from the human disease of depression, not necessarily cut off from God, but quite possibly cutting yourself off. You might benefit, if you are as desperate as you say, from consulting with a therapist. It is an act of humility that you cannot figure out what to do about your life.
I am beginning to realise that depression is a symptom. It could be a result (and a symptom) of Opression.

Namely; Opression of the self <and the soul>, (by the self and by others), opression of ones inner feelings, opression of one natural creativity and opression of one's own path and abilities.

No wonder ADKS feels trapped in quicksand. I feel that the struggling experienced is actually the need to rise above the opression, and subsequent depression, and what could be very important here is the willingness too struggle, to get out of the feelings of being in quicksand, as this shows that lying underneath the surface is a deep need not feel depressed and/or opressed, i.e the natural self is now wanting to rise to the surface and be counted, which is a wonderful thing. eh?

One of the problems of the BK lifestyle is that one takes on a belief system that tells us to sort out all our feeling ourselves, <a la everything is just between "me and G-d" > and just the fact the ADKS is asking and sharing on ths forum (as are so many people) shows that perhaps professional therapy would assist to emerge the real UNOPRESSED self. Then perhaps, one would experience challenges in life but not the huge internal struggles as described.

I am wondering if anyone else agrees with this or wishes to add to it?

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Post by pilatus » 09 Jul 2007

paulkershaw wrote:the natural self is now wanting to rise to the surface and be counted, which is a wonderful thing
Having been through breakdown and been depressed, I've come to a merging of ideas from Western and BK/Eastern psychology/philosophy in order to express this in a way which works for me.
  • 1. Significant change (which is indeed a wonderful thing) is much more likely to happen when we want it and consciously choose it.
    2. The wish and the choice do need to come from the true/higher Self into consciousness, as opposed to the ego self.
    3. We should credit the BK teaching for its emphasis on Self Transformation. But it's not a solo effort.
    4. The route to change (whether it be exercise, diet, counselling, therapy) almost always involves finding an approach which feels right and works for you plus a good support network of people (whether friends, family or professionals) with whom you can be open and honest and whose judgement you respect.
Best wishes to you all ...

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Post by fluffy bunny » 09 Jul 2007

di wrote:Analyse that? easy, its BK BS. :roll: Ho Hum Need to put my Wellington boots on to wade through it ... ex-l made me do it :wink: .
Its true. Its all my fault. Everything from the start of the Copper Age 2,500 years ago is, as a BK, my fault ... but not as much as Lekhraj Kirpalani who started it all and caused "The Fall".

I just wanted to chip that other little gem in for our analyst's benefit, i.e. the general belief that all our problems as BKs started from 2,500 years ago and our fall into sin there. "A great pot of sin on our heads" ... 2,500 years worth ... as it is described in the Murlis.

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The struggling ... is actually the need to rise above

Post by abrahma kumar » 09 Jul 2007

Thanks paul and others. cannot be as thorough as the previous contributions right now but would like to take the chance to share something personal thoughts exploring the very real likelihood that some of us are now experiencing that the natural self is now wanting to rise to the surface and be counted.

Though it is at times for me a painful process paul's sharing about the possibility that it is indicative of a stage in which 'the natural self wanting to rise to the surface and be counted' strikes a chord. Amongst other things that analogy triggers recollections of Keni Burke's performance of a song entitled 'Risin To The Top' - a snippet of which we can hear by clicking on the speaker link in the section headed "A classic is made ..." on this page.

Together with the uplifting sentiments contained in that song, paul's ideas help me to look with clarity at my BKWSU student life, recognising the incidents in which "opression of my natural creativity and oppression of my own path and abilities" took place. Of course being BK's the method was very sophisticated. At all times requestig me to measure my thoughts and actions against the oblox of 'selfless service'.

This tendency seems to create the effect of re-focussing me from my spiritual fulfillment and instead hitching me up to some 'greater good'. I would argue that there is a whole lot about the organisation which serves the primary purpose of encouraging us to wrap ourselves up in the whites of BKWSU allegiance to none but them. Staying under forever seems not to be in my lifestory and for this I am happy. Thanks paul. The struggle does actually sihnal that it is time rise above.

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Post by zhuk » 09 Jul 2007

di wrote:Glad to hear I am a newbie though and don't have many lifetimes of sins on my soul, I mean really ...p eople believe this? Could it possibly be because we work, study extremely hard? because we have goals and directions and keep slogging away at the challenges that are thrown our way? A little bit of credit where it is due please. Just like the time ex came home and was high as a kite, could have been taking cocaine the way he was... when I said 'you are off your face, high as' his reply was 'you only have a problem with it because you don't feel the same.' I'd be rich if I had been given money every time I heard a druggie say that. Now how is that for an admission under the influence of lets get high on meditation. Seeing God? very debatable, I've seen plenty of people on drugs due to my job , they used to see god as well! and he was exactly the same. Good ole endorphines, highly addictive, let you believe any old c*** you are told when under the euphoria. You know, it was as pleasant as being around someone who had been drinking or taking drugs...not nice, but he thought he was wonderful and spiritual.
[my italics] Great post, di :)

I think you've brought up something very important, and I thank you for doing so ... the uncanny similarities between the endorphin-cult-link & addictions.

I was a horrendous chain-smoker - until I almost got pleurisy & gave up involuntarily lol - but my personal drug of choice at one time was much, much nastier than cigarettes & the withdrawl something you just cannot ignore ... like the BKs fear of the withdrawl of the organisation's favour. NOTHING seems as bad at the time and you will do almost anything to avoid it coming to pass. I wholeheartedly agree with you about how it seems quite like the typical addict's self-rationalising excuse "you only have a problem with it because you don't feel the same", no matter what damage is being done to the "non-addicts" involved.

SO well put.
di wrote:As I said, anything you repeatedly enforce in your subconscious when off your face you will believe and it will make sense to you, no matter how ridiculous or false it is. Moreso, you will like the feeling that much you will do anything to go back for more, and let it cost you everything, just so you can get more of the same.
Aha! Bingo again :P so many similarities. The endorphin withdrawl ... the "high" or "supersensuous bliss of baba" feeling that must be regained AT ALL COSTS ... no matter who gets hurt.

But they're only lokiks. So they cannot possibly count, can they? :roll:

Thanks again di ;).

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Post by freedom » 09 Jul 2007

I agree with Paul, depression is oppression.

I have been depressed a few times and now I fight this 'pattern' ... I believe fear of expression, fear of judgement, fear of letting you true self be takes you to a place of non-creative being and that leads you to depression.

To get out of it you need do whatever it takes so you can feel better again, sometimes it is; smoking, drinking, dancing, writing, talking to someone. I find it writing very helpful because you are letting some of that stuck energy out and, if you chose to, only you will read it.

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Depression

Post by joel » 09 Jul 2007

freedom wrote:I agree with Paul, depression is oppression. I have been depressed a few times and now I fight this 'pattern'... I believe fear of expression, fear of judgement, fear of letting you true self be takes you to a place of non-creative being and that leads you to depression. To get out of it you need do whatever it takes so you can feel better again, sometimes is smoking, drinking, dancing, writing, talking to someone; I find it writing very helpful. because you are letting some of that stuck energy out and if you chose to, only you will read it.
To say "depression is self oppression" is easy. What I want to know is how does that formulation help a depressed person? Because people are generally not conscious of how they inhibit themselves.

Depression is also self protection. It is connected with withdrawal, dissociation. Someone may be afraid of what he will think, feel and do if he allows himself out. BKWSU, in particular, emphasizes the danger of letting oneself go out of control, the need to keep the self in check.

In therapy a person can express how their particular straitjacket of inner "No" works for them, speaking, enacting. Putting the flashlight on the deepest hurts becomes a creative act, leading to a more complete picture of one's personal emotional dynamics.

There are many approaches, including waiting for hunger or other reality to impel action. Obligations of work and family can be beneficial for the structured activities they can bring. A crying baby motivates its tired mother.

Yes, it's great if we can bring our unconscious and conscious abilities together, express ourselves richly, live fully etc. I think we all know that.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 09 Jul 2007

freedom wrote:I find it writing very helpful because you are letting some of that stuck energy out and, if you chose to, only you will read it.
And if you really want to punish yourself, tape record yourself speaking out those thoughts out ... I did that once and recently found such a tape. What a shock to listen to it once again and experience the difference between now to then. I could not even listen to more than a few seconds of it.

I DO NOT recommend this!!! But to think that if I was to record myself now and then listen to it again a few years, I would probably feel just the same about my present state of mind and "issues".

Things change and do get better ... even outside of the BK.

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