Who is to blame?

john morgan
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Post by john morgan » 09 Oct 2007

Dear Arjun,

It may be that I am guilty of "historical revisionism" with my 1974 date. I will pull out my old Raja Yoga diary which is in storage. Dadi Janaki was at Tennyson Road when I first came in contact with the BKs. I also recall Dadi Prakashmani coming to London. This means that I must have been around in 1977!

I can see that you are a serious student of BK history and will come back to you.

Kind regards,

John Morgan

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Post by arjun » 09 Oct 2007

John Morgan wrote:It may be that I am guilty of "historical revisionism" with my 1974 date. I will pull out my old Raja Yoga diary which is in storage. Dadi Janaki was at Tennyson Road when I first came in contact with the BKs. I also recall Dadi Prakashmani coming to London. This means that I must have been around in 1977!
Dear brother,

Om Shanti. I can understand your difficulty. Three decades is a considerably long period for anyone to remember accurately especially when you have not been in touch with the BKs all these years. I am sure that your diary would throw some more light on the Yagya history.

As regards my being a serious student of BK history, I want to admit that although I was very much interested to listen to the lectures on Yagya history by Dadis at Madhuban even as a small child in the late 1970s and early 1980s, but I have started doing research on Yagya history only after my association with this site. I don't remember if the Yagya history was so seriously discussed on xbkchat forum.

Since BKs are not ready to give official answers to the querries regarding Yagya history raised on this forum, I and many other members of this forum are constrained to do research on the various aspects of Yagya history as available in the literature, photographs, etc. published by BKWSU.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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Post by fluffy bunny » 09 Oct 2007

john morgan wrote:I will pull out my old Raja Yoga diary which is in storage ... This means that I must have been around in 1977!
And any old original Murlis you might have in there, please.

Would that mean you missed the 1976 Prediction for Destruction? Did they ever mention it to you? Thanks, your recollections will help us plot the true history. The 1974 to 1977 period would have been quite interesting. Destruction would have been in her/their minds ... you also had the institution of the trance light because Janki wanted one against Shrimat.

It would be interesting to plot the start of Western service, and the characters that came, in the BKWSU History forum. I see individuals being written out of the official history and, of course, no real discussion of why so many left.

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Post by john » 09 Oct 2007

Maybe someone could contact Hanuman from ex-BK-Chat to help us with some details. He was in Madhuban in 1976, waiting with the other BKs for destruction.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 09 Oct 2007

Just so you can follow, captain morgan, the type of questions we are asking is, "if this is God, why was he so specific about such dates". The logic breaks down in a couple of way; either it is not god but just some misguided/misguiding spirit ... albeit a gifted spirit ... or is it God and there was some specific meaning to what was so specifically said (which is the PBK POV).

The best BKWSU does is a wishful but Bhakti ridden, "God was testing us" followed up by revision and deletion. Do you think this is acceptable?

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Post by tinydot » 10 Oct 2007

First, let's define blame.

Blame
  • –verb
    1. to hold responsible; find fault with; censure: I don't blame you for leaving him.
    2. to place the responsibility for (a fault, error, etc.) (usually fol. by on): I blame the accident on her.
    3. Informal. blast; damn (used as a mild curse): Blame the rotten luck.
    –noun
    4. an act of attributing fault; censure; reproof: The judge said he found nothing to justify blame in the accident.
    5. responsibility for anything deserving of censure: We must all share the blame for this deplorable condition.
    —Idiom
    6. to blame, at fault; censurable: I am to blame for his lateness.
ex-l wrote:To diminutize, to attempt to diminish all the issues and all the evidence that are arising here to the neat little BK boxes called "blame", "criticism" or "personal attacks" is what we are fighting against. Wouldn't it be wonderful to have such self-belief that nothing could possibly be wrong with one's self, one has never done anything wrong and one's business operation is without cause of valid criticism? It is the BKs or Janki Foundation that needs our support, not the other way around. What on earth can they offer us ... except our birthright to the original unedited Knowledge and the Truth of what we got involved with?
Let's use the positive definition of blame, i.e. to "to hold someone responsible". I think this concept of "No one to blame" as reinforced by BKs, is an attitude arising from being defensive and perfectionist. They gave the concept of "Drama" a twist to escape from responsibility. That happened to you because that is your drama. If this is a "dirty Kaliyugi world, and everyone has gone impure" (BK teaching), or "everyone has come short of the glory of God" (bible), then I therefore conclude that,

"EVERYONE IS TO BE BLAMED [to some degree including myself]."

I think this is a starting point of a person of humility, of honesty and of right mind. And the moment he acts and corrects his mistakes, and do something to enable others to realize their mistakes also (so that they may act accordingly), then the person comes to the level of maturity and responsibility.

IMO, to hold someone responsible because of what they have "intentionally" done wrong, is not an act of violence towards the person, but it's an act of kindness and mercy.

To blame someone is a consequence in accordance with the Law of Karma. Blame occurs when there is someone at fault. This is a logical consequence. If people blame God for all the suffering and misery, is God at fault? Perhaps not, but there must be someone? I guess all of us (including those so-called lower Demi gods) logically speaking (to satisfy the cause and effect law), that brings me to the concept of "EVERYONE IS TO BE BLAMED [to some degree including myself]."

Is there anyone who wants to take the biggest piece of pie? It brought me to the point of analyzing one Christian belief. Christ (God in person in their belief) has taken the biggest pie of responsibility by carrying the cross (blame) of our faults and mistakes (simply because we are so darn arrogant not to admit it and pay for it). And BKs claim they are higher than Christ in the cycle! What a contradiction! They don't even want to clean-up their own *******.

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Post by john morgan » 10 Oct 2007

So it seems that I must have been around in 1976. Was I waiting for Destruction along with everyone in Madhuban? No. Sorry to disappoint everyone. :cry: Naturally, Destruction was mentioned in classes the exact date always being an imponderable.

As we all know the theory is that God is invisible. God says that the existence of deities is the proof of his existence. He also says that he gives certain yogins visions of his subtle form.

Was Gyan created by God or by another entity? The Murli says that the basis of Yoga is faith. Either one has faith or not, there is a process of acquiring faith, after that if one cannot have faith its best to leave it all alone

There is no proof or refutation possible by any means in this world. The only way to see subtle things is by divine vision and even that doesn't guarantee faith. The proof of the pudding is in the eating. By following the instructions faith should grow.

Destruction is part of a larger picture, a superb learning picture which when one understands knowledge one can hold in mind. This is the Confluence Age, the only time that God is here, he gives his own introduction through the mouth of Brahma. The activities of the Confluence Age are Knowledge Inculcation Yoga and Service. Once it is over, Destruction takes place. All souls go home and the horrible mess we have created rewinds and heaven starts again. Again this is not necessarily historical, it is an experience. It is "Confluence Conciousness." Its not just that the CoA began on this date and and will end on that date. All that is the rational mind. Raja Yoga aims at a spiritual awakening, the mind is part of the soul not all of it.

If just one person comes between me and God the knowledge will not work. I recall Dadi Janaki going somewhere for some weeks. A picture of, I think, Dadi and Didi found its way on to the Classroom mantlepiece. Dadi Janaki returned and on walking into the Classroom turned the picture around before starting her class.

So this knowledge is multi-layered, which is not surprising considering that it is the same class for every student.

It may sound as if I am still a student but I am more dolphin friendly than BKWSU friendly. Until recently the BKs sent Murli essences to me in response to my request for Murli's. I also received an invitation to watch a film celebrating Dadi Prakshmani's life. My response was to cancel everything.

I doubt that I have answered your questions in the way that you wished.

Its late,

Kind regards,

John Morgan

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Post by john » 10 Oct 2007

john morgan wrote:So it seems that I must have been around in 1976. Was I waiting for destruction along with everyone in Madhuban? No. Sorry to disappoint everyone. :cry: Naturally destruction was mentioned in classes the exact date always being an imponderable.
John

There are quotes from Murli and Avyakt Vani mentioning the Destruction, which indicate 1976. I don't have the exact quotes, but I think Arjun Bhai does. They have been posted in other threads.

The gist was, e.g. an Avyakt Vani from say 1971 would read 'Destruction will be here within 5 years, anyone who has disbelief in this will have their post reduced'. Also in one of the original pictures the L/N one there is a quote at the bottom which reads.
Corruption, Irreligiousness, Unrighteousness, Vices, insolvency and sufferings will come to an end in Bharat within 10 years and Golden Aged Diety-World -Sovereignity of Shri Lakshmi and Shri Narayan will come to be re-established soon after the forthcoming huge world destruction.
The picture was from 1966 and another one a year later read 'within 9 years'. It is said Brahmababa was so convinced that he said, if the world Destruction did not come he would give away all the Yagya's money.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 10 Oct 2007

john morgan wrote:Again this is not necessarily historical, it is an experience. It is "Confluence Consciousness."
Do you mean its a deception, as in not a reality, in order to reach a desirable end result? We explored that in reference to Plato's Noble Lie. So, 1976 in 1980 out?

Its strange because reading your last post, john, your distance from the organization seems to have kept you more "in" than many of those that are in it, or have been recently, and are have faced the realities. You are lucky to have such an untarnished romantic view.

It seems like you are a little upset to have the Murlis cut away from you. Have you asked to have access to them electronically? Do you agree with the sense of coercion that exists within this Murli supply issue or should they be available for all?

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Post by joel » 10 Oct 2007

Nice to have you posting with us, John Morgan, sharing these brief moments of awareness.

I'll start responding from an off-angle. I wonder if anyone has investigated the power of prayer on the content of Usenet postings? Will I add more to this forum by remaining a lighthouse of inner bliss for 30 minutes, or by posting some thoughts here? I tend to write longer articles, not chatty. Linguistically endowed according to some, hungry to meet The Other; you, the world.

Myths of both Destruction and eternal life seem to me can be described as a kind of probabilistic attractor. Of course, there are creative and destructive aspects to most life processes. Yet the doctrines regarding death and eternal life (or reward or punishment) in mass religious teachings (including BKs) survives, in my opinion, because it has a value; it makes it possible to establish a group of people ready to dedicate their life resources to a cause outside of themselves, above, frequently hidden. The myths and the power structures reinforce each other.

People with extreme beliefs are primed for extreme actions. In my case, to disconnect from my body during dental work. Good, yes? What about this; to disconnect from the intelligence, life and creativity that expresses directly my own internally summing of the universe around me. By "developing my intellect", I was also suppressing a spontaneous aspect of myself, my "animal" responses. In general.

This direct summing and responding to the world is something that happens when the intellectual sphincter is relaxed. Intellect is linguistic, semantic forebrain, is it not? That remembers Baba's words: Shrimat, the Ten Commandments. It is different from the internal flame of the person. Surrendering to Baba, letting Him work through me, such words imply uninhibited openness to a non-judging spontaneously responsive state, a state that is associated in BK-land with the practice of Soul Consciousness.

At this moment, the explanation goes, I am not pure enough to permit my self such abandon. So I must undertake a life of rigorous disciple, self control for the purpose of purifying myself. I should let go, jump into the flow of the (wild?) river, when it is Godly thoughts going through my head, jump out of the flow and put on the brakes when evil thoughts of Ravan electrify my senses.

When can I rest and fully accept myself if I judge myself as sinful, Ravanish? When can I choose whether I want to poke myself? Can I trust myself to learn from experience, allow myself to meet life directly, finding my own way just as I learned to stand and walk and talk on my own? Our conscious life can be described as transitioning skillfully among multiple trancelike states. In my opinion, our unconscious is the emotional and creative resources we have hidden within ourselves in order to survive in situations otherwise too terrible to bear.

My inner life reveals itself - even if not to my own awareness - by telegraphing itself through my posture and body language. I stand tall, yet sometimes tilted forward in a way that freezes feeling (unsteadiness, anxiety) into my way of standing. When I can just see, just become aware, it is as though I have learned to listen to myself.

Seeing aspects of myself that I disliked, that looked bad in comparison to the models (Charlie, Denise, etc.) in front of me (awkwardness, muteness, shyness), I used to wince habitually as though poked with a pin. A feeling that looking so stupid as that makes me unlovable. I've dreamed of being poked through with needles, thorns and hooks. These are my pain responses that I somehow produce from within.

Lately, I respond to most of what I do by embracing, it is a feeling anchored to a moment I made an unconscious gesture with my hands, calling life to within myself; all parts of myself, even the immature, selfish, paranoid, etc. Can I accept my inner life unconditionally, the deepest truths and dreams of my heart? Replace those thorns with embraces?

It's an embrace if as I notice that I am beginning to interrupt my breath, that I can express myself in another way, feeling my sturdy standing and continuous flow of life in easy breathing. As opposed to poking myself with a pin in punishment for being nervous. It is when we are nervous that we stop our breath. The state is silent, without words, emulating death, as tho to hide from a predator.

I think BK dos and donts directly interfere with the process of listening to and embracing oneself. Unless you're one of the special ones, there is a good chance that some of the deepest desires of your heart, that matter personally the most to you, you will be told to suppress. What a way to live when your own heart distrusts you, because of your narrow ideals. God may accept unconditionally, but BKs live under conditions, in my opinion shaming functions and social needs inherent in our proud mammalian heritage.

That is my morning meditation, greetiings to all!

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Post by bansy » 10 Oct 2007

Welcome to the forum John morgan.

Would you know and does anyone here know how Tennyson Road was chosen as the first overseas centre ?

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Post by alladin » 10 Oct 2007

Hi, every body and thanks. Nice sharing with all of you. Joel, I feel like commenting on your post:

The disconnection business seems a serious one. I am sure psychologists could tell us a lot more on the damaging, unhealthy effect of that. Empirically, we all know what it has done to us.
joel wrote: to disconnect from the intelligence, life and creativity that expresses directly my own internally summing of the universe around me. By "developing my intellect", I was also suppressing a spontaneous aspect of myself, my "animal" responses ... In general. I think BK dos and donts directly interfere with the process of listening to and embracing oneself
But they talk about tolerance towards each one's role, and differences, acceptance ... only talk, in fact you are expected to fit into stereotypes.
When can I rest and fully accept myself if I judge myself as sinful, Ravanish?
It's always rejection and shame, no acceptance, even if they say it's an ungoing study, so for sure, on a path we are walking, the destination is further ahead, perfection is at the summit, so why not being patient with our hindrances and flaws?
freezes feeling
Yes, the BK world is a global freezer of emotions. Just look at them! In fact, enforcing such freezing process, all is left are negative emotions, suppressed and ready to explode or find new more subtle avenues.

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Post by paulkershaw » 10 Oct 2007

Pauls Reflections for the day:

As I read more about what is being called "the Disconnection" experience we/I had as a practicing member of the BKWSU, I am beginning to believe that it is the ex-BKs/persons that have left the organisation that are in fact a success story in themselves.

On reflection of this statement, I was thinking about what made me join them in the first place and I remember that it was my inability to connect with the world and my lack of understanding of many things, including myself that brought me to them.

On one level, it took more courage, faith and trust in myself to leave than it did to stay.

To say that "I can do this myself", only once one can recognise too that we cannot disconnect with the rest of the world in its entirety, one simply cannot do it as this world is a living and expanding consciousness of its own, resonating to our energies as humanity in total, and that one MUST in fact take ones place in this world as the unique and empowered individual one is/can be.

Sure, many of us (me included) definitely have our off-days but overall, the BKWSU have done their job with us. We learnt/are learning to disconnect too (in a kind of backfiring and rebounding fashion at them) and to be able to discern for ourselves where we stand in our own lives and by hook or by crook will make a success of it (and more will too as we go along) ...

Despite being repeatedly informed that we'd be the Lowest of the Low if I left, most of us (and here I pause to remember those that believed it and ended their lives because of it ...) have chosen and will continue to choose to be beyond fear and to lead successful and individual lives in our own rights. That's an honour I feel ... and a right too.

So really, what I am saying is that I am a by-product of an organisation. And as a by-product I must surely still reflect certain aspects or parts of that organisation too. Therefore, if they're being bitten in the ar*# now, they've only themselves to blame. It goes straight to the point about responsibility and the long-discussed point of karma. "What you create, you receive back ten-fold".

Hail Caesar xxxxxp

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Post by john morgan » 13 Oct 2007

Just a quick post to say that I am still considering my response to ex-l's post of 9th October.

Kind regards,

John Morgan

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Post by bro neo » 14 Oct 2007

Here, here tinydot!

I think it’s important that at some point in our life we do accept that the world and everyone in it is to blame for our pain, if that is what we believe. Familiar with the serenity prayer
  • Full Original Serenity Prayer by Reinhold Niebuhr (1892-1971)

    God, give us grace to accept with serenity
    the things that cannot be changed,
    Courage to change the things
    which should be changed,
    and the Wisdom to distinguish
    the one from the other.

    Living one day at a time,
    Enjoying one moment at a time,
    Accepting hardship as a pathway to peace,
    Taking, as Jesus did,
    This sinful world as it is,
    Not as I would have it,
    Trusting that You will make all things right,
    If I surrender to Your will,
    So that I may be reasonably happy in this life,
    And supremely happy with You forever in the next.
I know, Cristian mumbo jumbo, but reading this one day, after leaving the BKs, something clicked. “Taking, as God did, This sinful world as it is, Not as I would have it”.

This world sucks. The people are unjust and selfish. I was born into this world into pain and hardship that I certainly don’t remember choosing to be born into it before I was born. So this world and everyone in it is to blame. That’s it.

I am to be blamed also for not being perfect? Basically everything is to be blamed, including my expectations for expecting anything good.

Well, I think accepting this for me was a starting point. Yes, this world is no picnic, and for some it's just hell. Our entire childhood should be totally blamed on our primary caregivers. It was their responsibility to care and train us.

OK, they were messed up, then their parents and the parents of their parents are to be blamed as well. On and on, until the whole society and world is to be blamed for my personal pain and unease.

By the age of about 21, our cerebral cortexes becomes fully developed, and this is when we fully acquire the ability for making personal decisions and judgments. Of course, a lot of people because of past experiences aren't aware of this and just continue to go through life like a leaf being blown about by every wind but the fact remains is there comes a time in our life that we have to take the bull by the horns and say, "OK, this sucks, but I can change it". Change means to swim against the current; there is no easy way to do it. Perhaps, also, we don’t discover our right to make our own decisions until very late in life. This, of course, sucks.

I believe deeply, at least from my personal experience, that a process of really becoming aware of the blame and pain is needed to grow but to be stuck in it, suppress it or just strait deny its existence, keeps us from growing.

Of course, I am not saying this is what's right for everyone, but a lot of the time people get stuck with either blaming others or blaming the self. Neither is usually ever absolutely true. It takes 2 to tango, but when were readying to move on, its about accepting who did what, and then do what's needed to change and make things right. Responsibility.

Excellent to have you here john morgan.

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