Is this the end?

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ms orange
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Re: Is this the end?

Post by ms orange » 03 May 2008

ex-l, This is so tiring. How do you find the energy to keep moving forward with this bk.info machine and slamming those who have managed to stay on the path? I joined this forum primarily because I am interested in the possibility of reconciliation and healing. But there seems to be very little give on your part at all and seeing as you are so active on this forum, it colours the entire site. I've read so many posts where those who think differently to you (BKs) end of having to defend themselves. I feel I've had to do the same, regardless of the directness and honestly with which I speak. And, on this forum, I have yet to experience a dialogue with you (apart from our one private message exchange). Convince me of why I should remain engaged in this forum, when - to quote from your previous posts - you either seem to see me as a "Ramsay Inc" or "BKWSU Inc", a "pawn" or an "IP", a "soporific indoctrinat(or)" or a "victim of abuse". You have yet to see me as a sister, a soul, a brother, or a person ... If we want blaming and finger pointing we can look to our governments and the world. Enough.

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Re: Is this the end?

Post by bluesky » 03 May 2008

I don't believe the BK system is designed that way at all. I think it's our misunderstanding of it that makes that happen. I have also, at times, doubted my own feelings, been less assertive and denied my desires. It was only when I went deeper, quieter and stiller into the truth of Gods love that I saw my way through.
You are right that God's love, peace and silence does heal and help us see ourselves better, but it should happen naturally in ways that taps not only our inner potentials but also our ability to get things done at physical levels. Very often I see BKs as passive, less motivated, and out of touch from the real world. In other words, not utilizing the true capacity of the self.
I am interested in the possibility of reconciliation and healing

Very noble intentions. But people should be allowed to exchange experiences and to engage in open and honest communication.

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Re: Is this the end?

Post by ms orange » 03 May 2008

Hi BlueSky.

That's true, what you say ... that BKs can sometimes be less motivated. In other spiritual paths too, there's a kind of uncertainty that comes when people aren't quite sure how much to engage with the world. It's an art to be fully present and beyond at the same time. Leaving spiritual stages aside though, I think it does go back to each individual ultimately taking responsibility for their own mind, heart, stage and life. And, yes indeed, I do agree that open and honest communication is a necessity.

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Re: Is this the end?

Post by john » 03 May 2008

ms orange wrote: I joined this forum primarily because I am interested in the possibility of reconciliation and healing.
Maybe a good place to start would be if the BKs in the know started telling the truth about events in the Yagya, instead of cover ups and rewrites.
But there seems to be very little give on your part at all and seeing as you are so active on this forum, it colours the entire site.
Where is the give with the BK Org? They pretended to want correspondence, but were really planning and scheming to close the site down. A list of questions was sent to the BK Org and as far as I know they were ignored. These were all genuine questions pertaining to Gyan, events of the Yagya.

You talk about healing and reconciliation, but what about good old '****** off' at being lied to?

We can not be bought or swept under the carpet.

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Re: Is this the end?

Post by alladin » 03 May 2008

Ms Orange found a good place on earth, I hope white sand beaches and palm trees and not many mosquitoes there.
Ah, and where is that place, Heaven for women in the third world, so we can also join in the party and learn something? Maybe such a country can export its civilization to the vaste majority of places where women are beasts of burden and accomplish most of the heavy work and cannot choose when and if getting married and to whom; when, if and how having sex , they are mere containers for babies to be generated and flesh for men to de-sperm. They have no freedom of movement, no access to education, not the same rights men have in general, they get infibulated, beaten up, raped and have to put up with poligamy, and abuses perpetuated on them are not considered as crimes by the law. Just like in the BK system, raising your head results in lapidation. These cultures also have a special role for people who, like you, are designed for persuading rebels to put down the weapons, go back to sleep and not to shout so loud, neighbours may hear you! To go back inside the hut and cry in solitude. Zombies are only supposed to come out of the grave when needed for a task.

Ms orange almost convinced us that:
I have also, at times, doubted my own feelings, been less assertive and denied my desires. It was only when I went deeper, quieter and stiller into the truth of Gods love that I saw my way through.
Exactly, it sounds familiar. Maybe no mother in law to kick your arse and send you in the hut, but a SS that either with a smile or a stern eye, will convince you , when you have doubts or unease, or when you have a "touching", glimpse or suspicion on what the BK sect is all about, that you should deepen your understanding and find back your peace by sitting in Baba's room. Alternatively, you can go to the well and fetch some water, pound the millet, become busy in service. When you are a BK, your legitimate feeelings are always Maya, and your thoughts, lousy " manmat".
So, Miss Orange, those who feel their freedom has been curtailed have misunderstood the teachings?
Totalitarian regimes, always granted plenty of freedom of expression to, and even sponsored, those who speak in its favour, whilst crushing and torturing dissidents. Sorry if this is too obvious
Or maybe I misunderstood you and the ladies in questions started to radiate happiness after receiving the gift of Gyan from you or some angelic drishti took them beyond wordly sorrow and opened their third eye?

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Re: Is this the end?

Post by ms orange » 03 May 2008

by john on 03 May 2008

Where is the give with the BK Org?
I am not "the BK Org". I am one person.
They pretended to want correspondence, but were really planning and scheming to close the site down. A list of questions was sent to the BK Org and as far as I know they were ignored. These were all genuine questions pertaining to Gyan, events of the Yagya.
I am not They, and I never planned to close down this site.
You talk about healing and reconciliation, but what about good old '****** off' at being lied to?
Yes I do talk about healing and reconciliation. Why else would I put up with all of this? And I never lied to you. Do you understand now why it's so difficult to communicate with some of you? I express my opinion based on the experiences of my own life, and I get accused of cover-ups, lies and sworn at. Do you think that will aid reconciliation? Or do you think there's a better way forward? That's a genuine question by the way - not rhetorical.

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Re: Is this the end?

Post by ms orange » 03 May 2008

alladin wrote:Ah, and where is that place, Heaven for women in the third world... where women are beasts of burden and accomplish most of the heavy work and cannot choose when and if getting married and to whom; when, if and how having sex , they are mere containers for babies to be generated and flesh for men to de-sperm. They have no freedom of movement, no access to education, not the same rights men have in general, they get infibulated, beaten up, raped and have to put up with poligamy, and abuses perpetuated on them are not considered as crimes by the law.
Yes, the world is a sad place. And gender suppression is dreadful. But in your post you were asking about BK sisters in the "third world" not the global plight of women. Different topics as I understand.
These cultures also have a special role for people who, like you, are designed for persuading rebels to put down the weapons, go back to sleep and not to shout so loud, neighbours may hear you!

Don't presume to know me Aladdin. Clearly you don't.
Maybe no mother in law to kick your arse and send you in the hut, but a SS that either with a smile or a stern eye, will convince you , when you have doubts or unease, or when you have a "touching", glimpse or suspicion on what the BK sect is all about, that you should deepen your understanding and find back your peace by sitting in Baba's room.
Nobody told me or convinced me of anything. I worked it out myself. And it had nothing to do with Baba's room.
Alternatively, you can go to the well and fetch some water, pound the millet, become busy in service. When you are a BK, your legitimate feeelings are always Maya, and your thoughts, lousy " manmat". So, Miss Orange, those who feel their freedom has been curtailed have misunderstood the teachings?
Actually, I was doing that three weeks ago! Someone else pounded the millet, but I was fetching the water. I am sorry to hear that you've experience your feelings to be Maya and your thoughts to be "lousy manmat". And yes actually - I believe that's the case to a degree (that we experience bondage or lack of freedom often by misunderstanding the teachings). We tend to project our own baggage onto something or someone outside ourselves. It can soften the blow sometimes. It's a common human failing and it takes some brutal honesty and a bucket load of courage to take absolute responsibility for oneself, one's life, and to stop blaming others (whether people or institutions).
Totalitarian regimes, always granted plenty of freedom of expression to, and even sponsored, those who speak in its favour, whilst crushing and torturing dissidents. Sorry if this is too obvious. Or maybe I misunderstood you and the ladies in questions started to radiate happiness after receiving the gift of Gyan from you or some angelic drishti took them beyond wordly sorrow and opened their third eye?
I don't know the reason for the state of happiness of those I am living with - neither would I presume to know. Perhaps it was some angelic drishti that removed all their sorrow. It may also have been nothing that fancy Aladdin. What I do know is that I am living with 16 sisters in a simple centre here in what you term the "third world". Everything about the BK organisation is completely different here, including the way brahmins live together. I am learning a lot, and it's also showing me how narrow minded we can be in the west. And how we tend to project our values onto the east and think that's The Way Things Should Be and that somehow we have a monopoly on what is Right. The sisters I am living with, and those in the 12 or so other centres I have visited, seem close, loving, balanced and simple. I don't know the depths of their souls, but it doesn't take long to get the feeling of a place or a person. What can I say. They are some of the happiest brahmins I have ever met.

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if the fish jumps out of the water...

Post by alladin » 03 May 2008

Hi Ms. Orange.

Just to clarify. When I introduced the topic of oppression of women in third world countries, I wasn't referring to or even thinking of BK sisters and BK centers at all. I am from, and I live and work, in a third world country, so I don't despise this part of the world. I just have experience of it and nothing to do with centers. I just meant the life people lead in countries which are even worse than mine. Certain situations that occur elsewhere, are sometimes difficult to imagine, for women privileged because of their social class or nationalities. It is only about empathy. Not just to read articles about "sufferings", but see if you can feel it.

We have been told that the BKs are spiritual family. We were told, heard in the old days, a moving story about Brahma Baba refusing to eat, when he heard of some "child" having given sorrow to another. He had a big heart capable to feel and love. When and how cynicism become the rule, I don't know. "It's your problem if you took sorrow! It's your karma, you are to blame, God will fix it, don't take the law in your hands". Many points, if misused, lead to selfishness and a non-caring attitude.

You talk about misunderstanding the knowledge, so we could open a topic about it and see how misuse of knowledge happens and is very damaging. Maybe convenient temporarily for some people, but not for all and not in the long run. So, whatever happens in this family, if we want to make it perfect, spiritual and a healthy environment for learning, cannot be hidden under the carpet. Otherwise, dirt and wrongdoings will just increase.

Subtly and practically it affects the whole organization, not just individuals. I'd rather market a good product when I am confident it has little or no flaws, rather than covering up its defects and make my life complicated trying to push it as it is; defective. I want to be proud when promoting the BKWSO, not embarassed or in the position of having to justify nonsense contained in Gyan or non ethical behaviours, especially of senior members.

Nobody forced me to donate wealth to the BKs, neither to break my marriage, or ban me but if many people relate such stories, either on the Forum or in person, this is a valuable piece of information I have that can help me understand the Yagya better and process the abuses of other sort I experienced. Otherwise I would be in denial, up on a cloud, floating, but getting nowhere.

You already had noticed that there are different treatments for different people in the Yagya. So, if your script is such that you suffered just minor abuses- and wealthy people like you and your family are usually kept alive longer for various reasons, whereas troops can be sacrificed on a daily basis - this doesn't authorize you to disbelieve in other people's atrocious experiences, neither to belittle them. Nobody here is asking you to change your part. It's just a matter of listening to the stories others have to tell, and trying their shoes on for a minute. This is the first step when you want to have a dialogue and it means you give respect and value others.

Like some reggae singer sang (Who was it??) if you see a fish jumping out of the water, it must be because the water was getting too hot. So, something's not right witht the water, and that's what you have to correct, the temperature, not asking the fish to go back inside and get boiled!

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Re: Is this the end?

Post by ms orange » 03 May 2008

So, if your script is such that you suffered just minor abuses
Actually no - I suffered quite major ones (or they certainly seemed so at the time) It's just that I got through it, and finally I got over it.
and wealthy people like you and your family are usually kept alive longer for various reasons
We weren't always 'wealthy' as you put it. When I came into Gyan I had very little, and my mother and lived below the poverty line for most of my life. Again, don't presume to know me or my life.
this doesn't authorize you to disbelieve in other people's atrocious experiences, neither to belittle them.

I have never expressed disbelief in other peoples experiences, nor belittled them. I just ask for the same treatment. If my 'part' is that I am still a 'BK' then please don't punish me for it.
Nobody here is asking you to change your part. It's just a matter of listening to the stories others have to tell, and trying their shoes on for a minute.
I have heard and continue to listen to many stories. I am speaking with someone in a private chat at the moment listening to their story, because they want someone to talk to but they don't want to take on the vibe of this site. I will listen to any and all stories. But I want to help people move through hurt and negativity, not grind their face in it.
This is the first step when you want to have a dialogue and it means you give respect and value others .

Indeed it is. But surely that includes me ... ?

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Re: Is this the end?

Post by fluffy bunny » 03 May 2008

ms orange wrote:I express my opinion based on the experiences of my own life, and I get accused of cover-ups, lies and sworn at. Do you think that will aid reconciliation?
I would not start to partronise and manipulate what john is saying, tamasin. This topic belongs to Sakaash in my book ... its headed WAY off topic. Its obvious to even to half-educated reader like myself that john is not talking about you but about the previous (and current) interaction with the BKWSU leadership. And the scale of differences between their claims and actions and anything john could dream up is huge.

Reconciliation with who? If you are "only one person" and no one here has fallen out with you ... who is there to reconcile with !?!

I'll take the rest of my response elsewhere. Sakaash, sorry to interrupt you.

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Re: Is this the end?

Post by andrey » 03 May 2008

I very much resonate to what ms orange says and am happy she is having good experiences. I feel such atmosphere should be present and maybe the right word is that there is more purity. I entirely trust this experience and stand beside it.

From it it is seen one can be honest without having to pin anyone and just in a positive way that is refreshing. Maybe we sometimes forget that the task of cretion of heaven is going on at present and we fight a little and feel bad.

We live in the media era where the image has great value. That's why we complain, because the image that here it is drawn for the Bk cannot be realistic and real. Some like to present their own experiences as reality. They recreate in their mind some image and like to lay it for others.

For example 3-rd world. Who has created such term? It is only some "first class" world for to ensure its supremecy.

I am sure there are various kinds of experiences as there are various people. Maybe some leave even for to attract attention. There are those who leave with tears in the eyes as if they really feel apart from their true familly, but others leave left with murmur. It is given this example that when sickness comes some scream a lot and others feel pain even more and no one knows. Some will go to the high court for just a single world uterred against them and others will just don't mind and tolerate.

If this will be a place for everyone to share their own personal story then there may also be nice stories, but should we arrange everything arround me and you and they. Let's create something that is bigger then us.

I have experienced this empty, political, social manupulative talk (like for the 3-rd type of world). When i once used to be in an orphanage and found that children there are much more happy then the normal children, maybe because they had a community of children, they were living together, playing together. I don't know why. But no one believed for orphans are supposed to be poor.

Similarly India is belived to be poor country but there is an atmosphere of joy there.

Here points of knowledge are twisted with irony, but same points can also create some positive effect and bring some good results and feelings. You can use them to control and harm, but also to free and benefit. There should be more examples of such atmosphere like in this BK center and we should attempt to create it here for our own good. I think also one big obstacle is big ambition. We are very ambitious for something, but it is not exactly known what. We like to prove something to someone etc., etc., but when some nice positive feeling comes these matters they just don't matter so much then. Sorrow as well as happiness turns the attention inwards. Maybe this center is in its golden period or however we may call it, we like that there is Golden Age for all.

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Re: Is this the end?

Post by ms orange » 03 May 2008

I have responded to you personally. I agree ... this is Sakaash's space.

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Re: Is this the end?

Post by arjun » 03 May 2008

msorange wrote:I have responded to you personally. I agree ... this is Sakaash's space.
Om Shanti. Although you continue to write as ms orange, but your present state of mind represents a totally different colour :lol: from the time when you were thinking of quitting the forum because of some adverse comments. Like the BK/PBK kiln/furnace of Yoga, you seem to have assumed a different colour after getting baked in the furnace of BKInfo forum. :D Congratulations and I am sure you would continue to write with the same spirit and inspire ex-l to get coloured in your company :wink: .

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Re: Is this the end?

Post by john » 03 May 2008

ms orange wrote:Yes I do talk about healing and reconciliation. Why else would I put up with all of this? And I never lied to you. Do you understand now why it's so difficult to communicate with some of you? I express my opinion based on the experiences of my own life, and I get accused of cover-ups, lies and sworn at. Do you think that will aid reconciliation? Or do you think there's a better way forward? That's a genuine question by the way - not rhetorical.
Firstly, let me clarify. I was not aiming any of my comments at you and apologies if it came across that way.

I was making some points of why some are feeling a bit disgruntled and why I think it is justified.

I think the best way forward is for the BK. Org to come clean, also to make all Murlis available in there original (not rewritten) format. Hopefully you will have time to look over the BKSWU history section of the forum. Lots of information is revealed there of the early days of the Yagya.

The information revealed is from BKSWU own documents and not just hearsay or gossip. It is very different to how the BKSWU claim events happened.

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Post by tete » 03 May 2008

ms orange,
ms orange wrote: I joined this forum primarily because I am interested in the possibility of reconciliation and healing.
Ms orange, I think it is a very nice that you are open enough to engage in discussion here. We must must take into account that you are you and joined as you, and are not representing the organisation here. Sorry, if you are getting too much negative feedback and do know that your input is appreciated and welcomed.
But there seems to be very little give on your part at all and seeing as you are so active on this forum, it colours the entire site.
Well, that one is very expressive and perhaps you will see a different side when you go into deeper discussions of the Murlis as that one is a bit on the "orthodox" view and when active in the BKs they welcomed all the activity and still remember that one as being very bright. FYI: That one knows Hindi, I thought for sure that one was Indian for a long time and often still have my suspicions. :roll:

So, a big hug from a non-BK to you and hang in there. Put some chalk on your hands and swing back for a good hit when they pitch to you ... like Bansy (she and Mitra are very respected here). :D

Kind Regards,
Tete

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