Is it possible to change BK without distracting it entirely?

ermine
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Is it possible to change BK without distracting it entirely?

Post by ermine » 27 May 2008

Om Shanti everyone and hello again

Remarkable stories as every human and soul on the planet earth or far away. Completely similar and applicable to my children but they have understood my spiritual inspiration as I understand their life regrading to karma. What is the real family: Brothers or Sisters or all together on the planet or all universe or beyond?

I would like to ask someone who is willing to give me answer: what do you think whether is it able to change BK without distracting it completely or whether BK will be same organization after if BK will have changed policy?

Om Shanti
And God bless you

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Ermine: Can BKWSU change?

Post by fluffy bunny » 27 May 2008

ermine wrote:I would like to ask someone who is willing to give me answer: what do you think whether is it able to change BK without distracting it completely or whether BK will be same organization after if BK will have changed policy?
It cant. It has to fail and humanity has to be free of it ... then move on.

It is part of an old world mindset empowered by psychism, probably occultism. Destruction is coming for it, not the rest of the world.

Just let go ...

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Re: Hello from daughter of BK

Post by bluesky » 27 May 2008

Hello Ermine,

It all depends on what you mean by the word “change”. What you have indicated here is a change in policy and that would need clarification. If you also mean changes as how knowledge and Shrimat are being construed, then people have to be told the truth, the complete truth. Some BKs hold dearly to certain beliefs and feelings about the institution, if the changes are going to alter their beliefs and feelings, then I am afraid it may involve a complete change, and I have to with agree with ex-I that it may lead to a demise. Though I feel very sad about it, it is a liberating process.

Bluesky

ermine
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Re: Hello from daughter of BK

Post by ermine » 27 May 2008

Om Shanti Hello Bluesky,

Many thanks for your respond and your wrote about truth:
bluesky wrote:If you also mean changes as how knowledge and Shrimat are being construed, then people have to be told the truth, the complete truth ... I have to with agree with ex-I that it may lead to a demise. Though I feel very sad about it, it is a liberating process.
I, my point of view, the truth, is very a relative subject in any worldly religion and in your life in BK also. Everything depends on who your are and what your want? How would it change the Shrimat, particularly your personal Shrimat regarding to the knowledge? The Srimat could not be constructed, it is the basement but it is Your choice how to following the Shrimat. There will be no big difference what you have called liberating process. What is the liberating process? Liberating for what and from what? For new Shrimat, knowledge, method of meditation or liberation?

The word "change"; I mean about ex-BK and constant philosophical basement and equal hierarchical relationship within BK. You cannot change belief or truth. Whether it's being said or pronounced - the BK followers are quite very comprehending people and religiously strong to undertake any task. What I realize at the moment every thing depends on who is a head teacher of the center.

Of course "altering their beliefs and feelings" will be disaster but we cannot separate one object from anther within BK - to many links here. Do your really think that BK is not a beneficial organization at all or BKWSU should not be exist as we see it now? And what kind difference you want to see for BK to be more advanced or useful than now?

I think that there is no alternative that we have got at the moment- it is best and flourishing.

OM

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Re: Hello from daughter of BK

Post by bluesky » 27 May 2008

ermine wrote: There will be no big difference what you have called liberating process. What is the liberating process? liberating for what and from what?
I disagree. I think people are being used in ways that they are not aware of. Many people are engaging in the BK rituals as a result of fear of some sort. Even in service, there is element of fear. I know many BK teachers fear their center heads and National Coordinators and they were told to have certain number of students, baba’s box contribution, service programs etc. Teachers who fail to comply with the directions are not treated very well and threatened that their centres will be closed.

Some teachers are mandated to go to Madhuban every year despite having financial difficulties. New students from the centre are pressured to go to Madhuban and to follow Shrimat. So I hear all these things. There’s a lot of oppressions but students don’t realize it until it takes a toll in their life, e.g. losing job, sickness etc. Well, Ermine, being peaceful and blissful alone is not true liberation. BK leaders think that they are doing something good but in reality, sometimes, there is a subtle cruelty and conspiracy to keep people silent, and this is not liberation. So its a big difference.
the BK followers are quite very comprehending person and religiously strong to undertake any task.
Very subjective. Not all BKs feel that way. Many have problems and fear discussing these problems with SS. They fear being labelled or for not understanding Gyan appropriately. I think many BK teachers may have or potential for mental illness.
What I realize at the moment every thing depends on who is a head teacher of the center.
I think it is top leadership. Head teachers are still followers.
Do your really think what BK is not beneficial organization at all or BK should not be exist as we see it now? And what kind difference you want to see to BK should be more advanced or useful than now?
BK’s mission and vision seems noble but the approach isn’t.
we have got at the moment - it is best and flourishing
Disagree.

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Re: Hello from daughter of BK

Post by fluffy bunny » 28 May 2008

bluesky wrote:Some teachers are mandated to go to Madhuban every year despite having financial difficulties. New students from the centre are pressured to go to Madhuban and to follow Shrimat. So I hear all these things. There’s a lot of oppressions but students don’t realize it until it takes a toll in their life, e.g. losing job, sickness etc.
I did not actually know this ... BUT ... the strangest thing is when I was a BK my ticket to Madhuban was booked for me without even my permission. I never thought that the center-in-charge might be under pressure. Actually, I refused to go because I found this coercive. I wanted to go when I was ready and after I had been following Shrimat for long enough.

In those days you had to follow the Maryadas for a long period before you could go. I think it had just come down from 1 year to 6 months. Now they have Madhuban lying on her back with her legs open like a prostitute accepting anybody in. Its good for business.

The other absolute fact is that our center-in-charge also had a nervous breakdown, was shipped off to a minor center with no students the Kirpalani family owned (so Janki/Jayanti definitely know about this), and soon left Gyan afterwards. Before she was shipped out she caused a lot of unhappiness in the center. As you say, she was probably suffering from borderline mental illness but no body knew/thought/cared. Students spoke to the SS, lots of tense meetings were held, mostly it was put down as "brother's Maya" and the sister made to stay. Then she cracked.

Of course, one of the problems is that the leadership are NOT following Shrimat and that so much of BK Reality (tm) is fictional, made up, revised. This, by simple logic, is bound to cause problems. If you base your life on fiction you are living in a fantasy world.

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Re: Hello from daughter of BK

Post by bluesky » 28 May 2008

ex-l wrote:Now they have Madhuban lying on her back ...
Ex-I, you're so funny!

But yes, the quality has dropped a lot as compared to those days when we had to adhere to strict principles. Nowadays, I heard, even non-vegetarians and people who are not practicing celibacy are allowed to go to Madhuban. And if you have a lot of wealth, then you get the first class attention from SS.

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Re: Hello from daughter of BK

Post by tom » 28 May 2008

bluesky wrote:I think people are being used in ways that they are not aware of. Many people are engaging in the BK rituals as a result of fear of some sort. Even in service, there is element of fear. I know many BK teachers fear their center heads and National Coordinators and they were told to have certain number of students, Baba’s box contribution, service programs etc. Teachers who fail to comply with the directions are not treated very well and threatened that their centres will be closed.
Exactly, bluesky. The key factor is fear. I witnessed all this and was also under pressure years long.The threat that the center will be closed is the Democles sword hanging on the head of many teachers and center-in-charges.Also the fear not to be treated with respect or to get hell by Sister Jayanti is no less.
Some teachers are mandated to go to Madhuban every year despite having financial difficulties. New students from the centre are pressured to go to Madhuban and to follow Shrimat.
True. Nowadays not only once, but some teachers are forced even twice to go to Madhuban during one season through invitation from Dadi Janki. New students who are considered to be IP or VIP without even finishing the course and without following Maryadas are sweetly forced by the teachers to be taken to Madhuban to get some extra points from Dadi Janki.
ex-l wrote:In those days you had to follow the Maryadas for a long period before you could go. I think it had just come down from 1 year to 6 months.
Yes, i had to wait 6 months following Maryadas strictly until the center-in-charge allowed me my first Madhuban visit.
bluesky wrote:Nowadays, I heard, even non-vegetarians and people who are not practicing celibacy are allowed to go to Madhuban.
Yes bluesky, I witnessed some new students and VIPs on the way to Madhuban and back ordering meat in the plane and some married VIP couples who are not interested in Maryadas being invited to Madhuban and stay there with the others.

The Court of Indra and the pure vibrations in Madhuban was a legend which we have been telling to the students in the course.
ex-l wrote:The other absolute fact is that our center-in-charge also had a nervous breakdown, was shipped off
I also witnessed during years two of them cracked and shipped off. Now from this distance thanks to bluesky's excellent diagnosis, i am understanding that the reason of their breakdown was FEAR and pressure from Sister Jayanti and Dadi Janki.

Tom

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Re: Hello from daughter of BK

Post by john morgan » 28 May 2008

It is quite obvious to any thinking person that the people posting here are a sad lot. How could you all talk about fear in the same breath as Dadi Janki and Sister Jayanti? Shame on the lot of you!

That exactly the same characters were involved in my learning and leaving Gyan is purely coincidental. Their instilling of fear in students and seeming love of money is no bad reflection on them, how could you say that? The people these stars of the BK world guide are often fools plain and simple, and the fact that so many of them leave Gyan is the proof that they were only bhagats anyway. For goodness sake, leave these poor sisters alone.

Dadi Janki and the sisters are not at all interested in money, it is part of this old dirty world that will be destroyed. You can prove this by attending class and giving no money at all. The sisters are far far beyond such petty considerations. They want only what is from Baba and Baba provides!

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Re: Hello from daughter of BK

Post by ermine » 28 May 2008

I am agree with brother Morgan that there are lots of exaggerations within this site. Since i have joined to this web, I started contemplating my internal feelings and religious climate in different religious Centers. But I have not seen anything like that the most of the participants have described here. It is very ordinary explanation to blame SS and BK for personal experience or failure to apply this Knowledge to personal experience. The interpretation of fear is so narrow and disproportional due to having nothing to do with spiritual and personal development by meditation and Shrimat. The failure to discover BK native purposes and intentions how to live in harmony using this Knowledge.

I agree that regarding to psychology there are a plenty explanation of mental illnesses and instabilities which can be found in any religious sects or group. But it is very relative to explain everything by ordinary meaning or by own spiritual experience if it were that i have doubt. Following Shrimat or rituals and money donation have nothing to do with spiritual growth or development - it is personal choice and nobody insists to do it.

It seems to me that to many people choose to go to center and Madhuban to listen and see SS, then blame the BKs that they oppressed them. Finally, many I assume that they live in "BK" thinking that they were BK (it does matter how many years) but in reality they had lived completely immersed in the material world and see only material things in utterly religious realms. Year by year they became more materialistically attached to their misinterpretation and fear to spend to many years doing nothing. It has gradually increased and as a consequence they leave with nothing - more materialistically attached to illusive conclusions then they were before BK.

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Re: Hello from daughter of BK

Post by bluesky » 28 May 2008

Hello John and Ermine,

I did not mean to provoke you guys.
john morgan wrote:... people posting here are a sad lot. How could you all talk about fear in the same breath as Dadi Janki and Sister Jayanti?
ermine wrote:... very ordinary explanation to blame SS and BK for personal experience
These views are based on real experiences. No one is blaming anyone, just sharing experiences and evidences that leads to such conclusion. And I am not defaming DJ or SJ either. They are divine people, who have performed tireless service. But I am just sharing what people feel, so that we can openly understand the issues.
john morgan wrote:... are not at all interested in money
Brother, about the money ... all I can say is get real!
it is part of this old dirty world that will be destroyed.
Yes, it is free for 7 days but thereafter, you have to give your body, mind, wealth etc.
... it is part of this old dirty world that will be destroyed.
Yes, this old dirty world is comprised of corrupt people. We have to destroy greediness and corruption in the human mind. But "the world will be destroyed"?? I disagree. Mother nature is powerful and we have to respect her. This world will go on but, of course, there will be many natural calamities, huge war etc. That’s nothing new. But we shoudln't make use of what is happening in the world to support our ideals that the world will be destroyed.
ermine wrote: Following Shrimat or rituals and money donation has nothing to do with spiritual growth or development
Is this a personal or general belief?
... it is personal choice and nobody insists to do it.
About personal choice, sometimes you have no choice, either you stay and obey or just leave. Obedient is very subjective. What are we really obeying? Sometimes it works against our own feelings and it seems there’s not much choice, although we have choices in other matters. So perhaps someone can start another topic in this forum to discuss if we really have choice in BK life?

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Re: Hello from daughter of BK

Post by bluesky » 28 May 2008

tom wrote:... was also under pressure years long.
Yes, Tom. I hope you get better and feel lighter. I know some people feel happier now than before as they don't have to waste precious time struggling with all these issues.

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Re: Hello from daughter of BK

Post by fluffy bunny » 28 May 2008

ermine wrote:I am agree with Brother Morgan that there are lots of exaggerations within this site. Since i have joined to this web, I started contemplating my internal feelings and religious climate in different religious Centers.
I have a little feeling that Brother Morgan was offering a little sarcastic humour, am I entirely wrong?

Well, Brother Ermine, my experience is that a lot of BKs live in fantasy worlds role playing being "angels of light" or "world saviours" and the Seniors fit into their minds in the place of what royalty would be to conservative nationalists. Its an easy transposition to make. The BKWSU gives us a sense of self-important we otherwise would not have and we they don't want to look at reality because we are been told it is against Shrimat, and we cannot much of nonsense because it is spoken in another language behind closed doors. "Don't defame Baba by speaking out ...".
  • To qualify your statement fairly, can you please tell us exactly what your experience or involvement with the BKWSU is? From my recollection, you were not a full-time BK, do you go to class every day? What is your hands on experiencing of the running of the operation?
The "you can leave anytime ... no one makes you stay" number is a regular one they use. Its a very good but cruel and unreasonable yukti. Individuals are led into a frame of mind that the BKWSU (not BABA) holds the strings of their eternal salvation, with god knows what residual mental conditional, and the opinion of the Seniors is equal to the word of God.

I agree with bluesky that I have seen very little "blaming" going on here and an awful lot of fair documentation and analysis. I have seen BK cut to tears by the Seniors and voicing that they live in fear of them. Its all very subtle but there. In a sense I admire the constraint of the Seniors given the power they do have over their followers but I don't admire it given how far from truth they have gone.

What I have taken from it is that life is ... if you want ... all about lessons of worldly power. Or you can just walk away, be no one and at one with it.

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Re: Hello from daughter of BK

Post by jannisder » 29 May 2008

To me, as a non-BK but involved with someone who is a BK, it amazes me everyday to see how far a person could ever get involved in this kind of religion.

The impact that Dadi's have seems to be amazing and I wonder why! No one ever looked in youre eyes before??? Do BKs see them as some sort of higher beings??? They are just old women ... virgins or not, they do not know anything about life that they call a graveyard ...

What do they know?? Nothing ... is that way they say, "you don't need to know anything, or you don't have to think"! Did they ever think??? Obviously not! They never had to think ... and still are not thinking ... no time for thinking ... being in remembrance all the time ...

It is a sick and pathetic circus and i believe even God is having a laugh at it. Tell me who you love and i tell you who you are! Can no one of you (BKs) find your own power??? You know it is out there!!! Just go for it!!! Its easy!!!

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Re: Hello from daughter of BK

Post by john morgan » 29 May 2008

ex-l wrote:I have a little feeling that Brother Morgan was offering a little sarcastic humour, am I entirely wrong?
Quite the contrary ex-I, you are entirely right.

That people here are talking about real issues as they have witnessed them and understood them is very clear to me. That there is common ground between the experiences of others and my own experience is also very clear.

I am not saying that I entirely endorse either others perceptions and/or my own because for me to conclude about a continuing story could block deeper understanding. We are all seeking to arrive at the plain unvarnished truth, the method that we often use here is the analysis of past events and we seek to draw conclusions from those analyses.

We all understand that when we see a star in the sky that it is not definitely there. It may have moved on, changed, been destroyed, have been sucked into a black hole, come closer, gone further away etc. In the same way our understanding using our current tools may be a little incomplete. Using past events as a focus in order to create in the present moment could be considered limiting from many perspectives. The process of creation in the present moment is also of interest to me. In a sense the present moment is also a past one no matter how quickly our senses and minds have processed the here and now.

I enjoy this forum very much, thanks to you all. :D

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