Don't know if i could help my BK friend

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fluffy bunny
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Post by fluffy bunny » 25 Nov 2006

John wrote:But do you really know any of this for yourself?
Do you believe any and everything you read on the internet?
This site could be full of disinformation, how would you know?
What is she meant to do? Take a point of view on a balance of probability or go experience 5 years of Gyan before she makes a judgement ... ?

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Post by john » 25 Nov 2006

Mr Green wrote:Why mince words, brainwashing does exist within the Brahma Kumaris, or programming if you like. Most of the work is self imposed but you are given the tools and plenty of encouragment to get on with the job.
Or peeling back the layers of modern day societies brainwashing ...
ex-l wrote:What is she meant to do? Take a point of view on a balance of probability or go experience 5 years of Gyan before she makes a judgement ... ?
I don't yet see why she is making a judgement at all.

People will look for, or home into opinions that support what they already want to believe anyway. So without any experience how can anyone receive/give a balanced view. To express opinions or go along with others without really knowing is a sheep mentality.

Actually I can totally take on board what Mr Green and Primal Logic are saying and i do feel for what they must have gone through.

There is this thing that(cough) 'pukka' Brahmins use, where inherent in there speech is the idea that God is right behind them and everything they say. They then use this to influence other Brahmins as if they are speaking directly from God or from a totally correct understanding of Shrimat.
Does anyone know what I am talking about?

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Post by invited_to_be_a_bk » 25 Nov 2006

Well, do i have to experience all of them myself to make a judgment? I heard enough from the BKs, i read enough form non-BKs, i do experience some ... what do i need more to express an opinion? ... i respect all your opinions ... and just like mine, i dint seek for anyone's approval. As obviously stated in my post ... just wanna help my friend (that if he needs it).

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Post by bansy » 25 Nov 2006

To all newcomers, babies, sanity and invitedtobeBK, welcome to this forum.

Firstly, there are many subforums in this "Mother of all Raja Yoga Forums", and it is good you post into "NewComers". The other subforums are more heavy going for newcomers. I think what some of the members here are suggesting is that Raja Yoga and Gyan (the "knowledge") is not just educational which you learn from a textbook or magazine, but also very much practical, which means it takes into account a lot of actual experience and feelings. Because we are talking about spirituality, it goes in deep.

We may not be able make a "quick" fix solution to your immediate problem, as time is the only factor you have. So you need to be a patient, at the same time stick with the forum here and take each step to understand your personal situation and also try to pick up the various issues that are raised. This will give you a better picture overall.

Secondly, it may not be a BAD thing your concerned person has gone to the BKs, for now. There is a reason for them doing so, and yours worrying so will just add to more worries, which will mostly be your own. However, do not abandon your friends, sometimes friends do not know it until later on how much you were there for them. Remember also that non-interference with another person's life is also helping them. In addition, there are also good BKs as well as poor ones, so try hope that your concerned party encounter the the good ones, and they will eventually come back.

Good luck.

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Post by john » 25 Nov 2006

Bansy wrote:Firstly, there are many subforums in this "Mother of all Raja Yoga Forums", and it is good you post into "NewComers". The other subforums are more heavy going for newcomers.
Good advice, but Bansy also realise people posting in this bit may never venture into any other place on this forum and may be here for a short stay seeking advice. Let's keep it balanced, rather than all cuddly.
invited_to_be_a_bk wrote:Well, do I have to experience all of them myself to make a judgment? I heard enough from the BKs, I read enough form non-BKs, I do experience some ... what do I need more to express an opinion? ... I respect all your opinions ... and just like mine, I dint seek for anyone's approval.as obviously stated in my post ... just wanna help my friend (that if he needs it) ...
Dear invited_to_be_a_bk

Firstly, you must realise that not everyone on this forum is totally anti-BK, so posting on here you will get different views. Some will look at the dirt and decide, yes, it is totally dirty and some stand back and take a more objective view.

I don't see this as a 'cult' busting forum, maybe others do ...

Apologies, if I am coming on strong to you.

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Post by bansy » 25 Nov 2006

may be here for a short stay seeking advice
I agree though actually I prefer that these people do come back and feedback on the progress or results.

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Post by john » 25 Nov 2006

bansy wrote:I agree though actually I prefer that these people do come back and feedback on the progress or results.
OK, yes, I understand. I just get a bit queasy when newcomers are not given a balanced view and the one that stands out a mile to me, is that the concerned BKs may be perfectly happy. None of the new posters has mentioned that the Bk they know is unhappy or looking for help.
Yes they themselves are looking for help.

The best advice is to make them aware of the possiblities and one of the possibilties is that the person they know as a BK, will be set on course and not be impressed by words like 'brainwashing' and 'cult'.

I do understand if it is family they may feel distressed at the idea of there loved one entering a 'cult' as they see it. But they should also look at it from there family members point of view who has become a BK.

Let's face it someone who is a full throttle BK is not just going to jump up and announce 'it's a cult get me out quick!', just because a nonBK says it is. It will happen when there belief system breaks down through there own difficult experiences and realising 'the talk is not all like the walk' within the BK camp or they may just decide to stick it out.

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Post by invited_to_be_a_bk » 26 Nov 2006

bansy wrote: I agree though actually I prefer that these people do come back and feedback on the progress or results.
I will bansy ... and john, no worries, i respect your stand.

Peace to all.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 26 Nov 2006

John wrote:None of the new posters has mentioned that the BK they know is unhappy or looking for help ... Yes, they themselves are looking for help.

I refer to what I wrote the parallel thread about society's - which means other people - rights and responsibilities. I take onboard both your point but also the rightness of the other's concerns. If we all individually or collectively did not flag up the first signs of madness ... extremism ... crime ... fascism or whatever in others, society would be torn apart. In a way the political correctness madness of today in the West not to do so has encourage extreme and criminal elements of society to flourish.

To this specific post above, I would like to add the practised subtle dishonesty within the BK society.

Could you tell me that you would honestly and truly rely on a BK to tell others that they are unwell, sick, rundown, insecure, unable to follow the path any more ... and for the Seniors to respond to that with much less than an ear pulling or few cracks of the whip?

It is at that stage when a family member or a lokik friend might be the only one to step in, recognize the symptoms and do something. I'd say risking doing something is worth more than doing nothing. Just to identify a few examples of this;
  • • the main sister at my center had a nervous breakdown. The brothers were flagging up her behavior for months but were ignored by the Seniors who put it down as just "Brothers' Maya". Eventually, she was "promoted sideways" to a quiet center and taken off the service front but shortly left Gyan forever.
    • I could also name a very senior BK (and may well still) not only well respected but and individual with truly meritous productivity in my opinion, who also had a nervous and physical breakdown and had to go back to the lokiks to recuperate. The organization was arguably [my caution, others would simply write "was"] the cause of it and did not see it happening.
    • A neo- "lay BK" (came in via one of those Inner Space fronts) that torn apart their life, destroyed their family and scarred their children for life because their spiritual energy was released in such a way they went high as a kite but they were not taken through the full course in a systematic way and did not adopt full principles. Rather than acknowledge the issue, the BKWSU denied in writing she was even a member.
To end this, just two question;
  • • if the organization is so tuned in, caring and has such good checking systems, why does it keep missing it when long term BKs bail out for whatever reason it is?
    • what if the "BK" was a demi-BK, or one of these neo-"lay BKs" who was mixing Shrimat with their own manmat and not following principles ... who are the going to turn for help and advice? They may not even know the system.
My opinion is that whether physical or mental, many problems are just brushed aside as Maya or weakness and the BKs in question are not acting out of Knowledge but blind faith and denial ... when in fact they might be up against a congenital limits and being driven to breakdown or death following the mechanical path BK Raja Yoga has become.

As we all probably know of such stories, it might be a good thing to advertize what goes on so that it can be made public and discussed.

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Post by primal.logic » 27 Nov 2006

We do need to look out for each other - this is the essence of human survival and why we are biologically driven to belong. We are going to get passionate about things because we are talking about very personal and sometimes quite severe or dramatic issues - including our own lives, or even loss of life.

What might be interpreted as anti-bk may really be anti-establishment. In the inner circles Jayanti has been notorious for her temper and the devastation that she caused some BKs. I find that utterly reprehensible. It is the mindset that lets people suffer limitlessly and even take their own lives.

I saw Jayanti at the JAM program yesterday - she doesn't look good for her age, and Yoga is supposed to bring about a youthful glow! I have no doubt that privately, over the years, she has suffered enourmously herself - loneliness, isolation, the burden of unreasonable expectations both from herself and the group. But at the same time she has actively sought celebrity. She has a need to be important and was the main driver for VIP service - I watched her over the years as she aligned herself with those VIP's, on the stage, at least as important as them. And brilliantly hidden behind a wall of diplomacy that made her untouchable.

At the end of the day we are here for our own therapy. It works for me. Poor invited_to_be_a_bk has certainly copped it - sorry if the deluge of passionate opinion has been a little overwhelming. But I think we are driven by what we 'know' is coming. Your friend will eventually find BK life untenable and fall apart like the rest of us - I would guess that we all see this as 99% likely, and we all know how bad it feels when that happens.

He has left everything significant in his life - his lucrative job, his wife, and he is 'detached' from his kids. This will all catch up with him when he slowly, painfully, comes unstuck. He will feel guilty, that he is a failure, that he is damned, that he is a victim, has been ripped off, deceived and wasted years of his life. He will be depressed, suicidal and in pain. And where will the bk's be then? Nowhere. As Baba says, for every one that leaves, 10 will come, so leave those who leave. So who will be there then? Only us. Anonymous, online entities. So we get heated up, maybe we say disagreeable things from time to time, but we are here, baggage and all.

I am starting a new string about duty of care, you might find it interesting. I am looking at the next step.

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Post by invited_to_be_a_bk » 27 Nov 2006

ex-l wrote:As we all probably know of such stories, it might be a good thing to advertize what goes on so that it can be made public and discussed.
i think my posts are from the heart. I wrote them with all honesty and with the absence of pretense. i did not mean to offend others. I even thought, the pro-BKs will never mind it because according to my friend ... anything that contradicts that teachings of the BK is a waste thought because it can only drag their spiritual growth. It should not in any way affect them, in other words, it should only be ignored. Taken from my friend's point of view, i initially expected, only anti-BKs will respond to them.
He has left everything significant in his life - his lucrative job, his wife, and he is 'detached' from his kids.
And he lost me. :) My friend had been trying to contact me through phone, SMS and email because the national coordinator has arrived and needs an audience to listen to his teachings on spirituality. My friend expected that i would gather participants for the organization. But having read a lot of things about the BK ... i swear not to be part in any of their activities. I heard, that my friend has a good image in the organization because of the 2 successful seminars conducted in our area ... but they don't know, it was me who brought my friends and relatives to attend and not my BK friend.

The reason why i do not want to encourage anyone to join is that I am being cautious don't want to be blamed in the end ... Better safe, than sorry.

Peace to all

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Post by fluffy bunny » 27 Nov 2006

invited_to_be_a_bk wrote: I heard, that my friend has a good image in the organization because of the 2 successful seminars conducted in our area ... but they don't know, it was me who brought my friends and relatives to attend and not my BK friend.

The reason why I do not want to encourage anyone to join is that I am being cautious don't want to be blamed in the end ... Better safe, than sorry.
And you are to be admired for taking the stand because, whatever the motivation, you were being used ... and used to create a front.

I did not mention beore, but that "blanking" that you mentioned when you said that you might catch a nice BK boyfriend is typical BK behavior. They see but they don't let out their repsonse. They learn to hide or remove any reaction and are willing to use any situation to their advantage, e.g. "for service". So, in short, any man with two brain cells might have seen that you were keen and wanted to establish a normal friendship. But that natural instinct was being used for the corporate expansion plans. Top marks for letting the BK and their senior see the reality of their humanity ... or service worthiness in BK terms. If his ego was involved, he will be panicking now. I know, my BK ego took bashings when I helped organize events and no one turned up too!!!

One other thing to mention, which I mentioned in another topic, the BKs operate like a little secret service; so if one of them sreads something on the internet, it will whispered across the world to other BKs and worked down through their communication trees. Some of these are ultra-secret, encrypted channels only Seniors have access to. Sometimes they make little groups to work on problems like these. Now, there is nothing to be frightened on a physical level. But expect to be facing or confronting more than one mind or pair of hands. The BKs are VERY "us and them". You would have been labelled a serviceable "contact soul", e.g. a non-BK associate who does not have the Knowledge nor has been initiated but someone that is useful for service. That is what their side of the relationship is about.

It is very sad but they cannot really have human friendships at all. That is seen as "attachment" and bad for their spiritual growth. Of course, what you will discover is that the Seniors do or ARE allowed to carry on friendships. But again especially when the are useful for sources of information or "service contacts". To be honest, I would go as far to say it is impossible to trust most BKs as they do not own their own minds any more. It is their job to exploit every relationship, every opportunity for the BKWSU's global expansion plans.

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Post by arjun » 27 Nov 2006

I saw Jayanti at the JAM program yesterday - she doesn't look good for her age, and Yoga is supposed to bring about a youthful glow! I have no doubt that privately, over the years, she has suffered enourmously herself - loneliness, isolation, the burden of unreasonable expectations both from herself and the group. But at the same time she has actively sought celebrity. She has a need to be important and was the main driver for VIP service - I watched her over the years as she aligned herself with those VIP's, on the stage, at least as important as them. And brilliantly hidden behind a wall of diplomacy that made her untouchable.
I have not met BK Vedanti, who is the head of BKs in Africa and supposed to play the role of Vaishnavi Devi (alias Vishnu) in future. I don't know why BK Jayanti corners all the glory and attention while Sister Vedanti has to play the lesser role in International BK Arena despite taking the Godly service ahead in a difficult terrain. Could any ex-BK or BK from the foreign countries who has met/heard about both of them draw a comparison between the both?
Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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Post by john » 27 Nov 2006

ex-l wrote:I refer to what I wrote the parallel thread about society's - which means other people - rights and responsibilities. I take onboard both your point but also the rightness of the other's concerns. If we all individually or collectively did not flag up the first signs of madness ... extremism ... crime ... fascism or whatever in others, society would be torn apart. In a way the political correctness madness of today in the West not to do so has encourage extreme and criminal elements of society to flourish.
ex-l

I agree with what you say, but in this particular instance I have not yet heard how the BK mentioned is troubled. Not many BKs come onto the forum to put their point of view/experiences forward.

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Post by mr green » 27 Nov 2006

BKs who are still BKs do not think they are in trouble john, even if their behaviour has become eratic and unsafe ... like telling little children about Gyan.

It is common practice to indoctrinate children of any age into the extreme beliefs of the BKs. They hold regular 'nice' classes for the kiddies, but still passages of the Murlis are read to them. Now if you really think it is God and the true message, then in your mind you will feel you are doing them the ultimate favour as you will serving anyone else. But is it so?

My point being that a practising bk will not think there is anything wrong in their behaviour. It is the natue of the beast.

Likewise, a bk will not know in general that they are in trouble on most levels until the point comes that they have no choice to see it. So you won't get BKs posting about such things unless they've reached such a point.

Remember when you leave even under horrendous circumstances like my own, practicing BKs still think that you have gone on holiday, that you have a little Maya, and you will be back probably after you have finished filling your urn of sin.

When I was in discussion with the BKs, I had to go to Global Cooperation House to see Dadi. On my way out I was confronted by a bk I had always considered a friend, who knew about what had happened to me, and still he leant down with that bk 'drishti' look in his eye and said, "well, you are just on holiday". I nearly punched his lights out.

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