Hi, I am new & would greatly appreciate some guidance

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Post by paulkershaw » 19 Jun 2007

andrey wrote:We live the same ordinary life as everyone eat dress, sleep, laugh and cry, we feel the same, but what is special is the special knowledge we have received from the special source, that's why we are happy. Everyone can receive it and become the same. There are no restrictions. It is free. All have one and the same Father, but not all know one and the same Father. Father may also mean senior to you in ... older than you ... more mature ... more experienced. We play children and he plays Father ...
I don't think I can agree Andrey ~ and I feel that you STILL haven't answered my question.

I would appreciate your clarity on the following points - perhaps a simple Yes or No answer would suffice:-
  • a) Do you personally feel that because I have not taken what is called "Advanced Knowledge' that I do not know the Father?
    b) Do you think that BK/PBK lifestyle is truly ordinary and normal?
    c) Do you say that being a BK or PBK brings no restrictions?
    d) Do you think that everyone wishes to become the same?
Many thanx in advance - I welcome your personal viewpoints on these questions.
~p~

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Post by jannisder » 19 Jun 2007

:evil: :evil:

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Post by john » 19 Jun 2007

andrey wrote:Dear Brother ex-l, Cases where women torture men are more rare.
Really depends whether you mean physical or mental torture.

It really is like you have learnt about life from a text book.

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Welcoming personal views

Post by abrahma kumar » 19 Jun 2007

paulkershaw wrote:... welcome your personal viewpoints on these questions.
Doesn't this lie at the heart of the matter? Do we as BKs/PBKs, whatever relinquish our capacity to develop a personal view and instead shroud ourselves in 'orthodoxy'? As my journey unfolds I am learning to spot these characteristics of dependancy. Personally, I am learning that I need not to shun them but explore them so that I can clarify what it is that i stand for.

As a soul, is not it my duty to be free even of the influence of Gyan? Or put it another way. As a soul is not it my responsibility toward myself to come to informed decisions about my life? To exercise choice and experience free-will over my beliefs.

If the BKs change their "enrollment policies" such that i do not qualify, what then happens to my relationship with myself, G-O-D and the world at large?

If the PBKs can push through with making their Vanis more generally available, it would be a great step forward towards to enabling millions of souls to freely take from 'Gyan' according to their practical capacity and not as though they have learnt about life from a text book.

is not Life's template revealed in the very living of life itself?

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Post by andrey » 19 Jun 2007

Dear abrahma,

Yes, it is all about this, what the knowledge makes out of us and what we make with the knowledge. No, no ... yes, we should be free and this is the aim of everyone, but what is freedom it is not to not be influenced. Freedom with no retsrictions is no freedom, it cannot exist. There are always restrictions of the body, of the place, of the mind etc. We all should take into account and we cannot escape that. Freedom does not mean to follow my own self - whatever the heart desires, to do that.

This freedom is dependancy, it brings sorrow. The heart does not know what to desire. If we were already OK and perfect, then OK. But are we? Independency and freedom does not mean to not listen to anyone and not follow anything, but it means to listen to only one to follow only one thing and there is clarity in it and this dependancy onm only one thing makes you free from everything else. Yes, we should learn about life from a text book, because we create life. It is said that, there is such expression "as from a book, as if according to a book" meaning something perfect and good, of course, when we try to incorporate an idea in practical it changes a little, but practically it becomes even better than we thought.

Dear brother paul,
a) Do you personally feel that because I have not taken what is called "Advanced Knowledge' that I do not know the Father?
b) Do you think that BK/PBK lifestyle is truly ordinary and normal?
c) Do you say that being a BK or PBK brings no restrictions?
d) Do you think that everyone wishes to become the same?
a) Yes. No. one can even recognise before taking the course. You should tell whether you know or not.
b) Yes, it is the way it should be, more normal than the so called "normal" life of today that can be called unnormal.
c) Yes, it brings restrictions but they don't feel like restrictions.
d) Do you mean to become BK or PBK, or do you mean or become the same person. I think everyone wishes to come to his original initial state of peace and happiness.

Dear brother john,

yes, men also torture women intellectually.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 19 Jun 2007

I want to underline Andrey, what you wrote about the three stages of women came directly out of the ancient Hindu text called 'The Laws of Manu'. Social theory that was used to bind some ancient Indian societies and still does. It also determined some pretty horric limitations for women, especially after the death of her husband, including suttee (burning herself to death), child brides (marriage from as young as 6,7,8 years old) who if their husband died, were not allowed to re-marry for the rest of their lives and the outcasting of widows.

It is not a new opinion. It is not newly sprung out of some wonderous Godhead for the next Kalpa. It is just a rehash of old Hinduism, as Lekhraj Kirpalani liked to, as Lekhraj Kirpalani was conditioned to ... as Lekhraj Kirpalani had to, for the sake of not creating discord in his society, and Virendra Dev Dixit feels bound to reference back to in order to keep up a facade of BKs to attract BKs and avoid too severe criticism of other local Hindus and the BKWSU.

The BKWSU and then Virendra Dev Dixit following them, picking and choosing what they want to keep out of Hinduism, what they have to keep out of Hinduism (so as to not cause too much trouble in India) and throwing away what they do not like. Yes, I know what the BK text books says and enough of the PBK text book to know the theory of what is going on ... but how far do you take this in practical?

Do you want your women in purda, or locked up in the home encampment all day not able to go outside, an uneducated slave to some man and his family? ... because that is basically the reality of the societies you are talking about, the soceity that the BK came out of. A women in rural India probably is not safe and probably does need pretty much constant protection ... from the ignorant, insenstive barbarism of the ape like men about her. (And that is an insult to many apes). It was also a society, and social theory, dependent on an even lower slave (servant) caste. Do you want to return to that?

What is interesting is how that social theory applies in more developed societies such as the West and Far East ... largely different societal models from which the BKWSU, and I dare say minority PBKs, do and are willing to profit from. They are quite happy to have their kunyas going out to work to earn money to donate it to the bhandara and to gain professional arts and social status to be used for service and so on. There is nothing they like better than a BK sister that is a Doctor or equivalent. How does that fit it?

Within the BKWSU model, one could argue that the Senior Sisters have become the husbands of many wives, just as Lekhraj Kirpalani did in his time. This would also fit into PBK theory that the BKWSU leaders are Islamic ... as they are allowed to have not one but many wives. And how many lovers and wives has Virendra Dev Dixit taken?

You know, to some extent, I actually believe that the BK, PBK path IS an evolution for part of Indian society AND a liberation for many girls/women. Given the alternative of the slavery of an arranged marriage for familial financial benefit to some stupid, ignorant, insenstive man for whom she has no feelings, virginity and BK service is probably a better option. But only a deeply primitive part of India.

An even bettter option would be for her to move out to a liberal, secular, developed nation, allow her to make her own mind up and make her own decisons and mistake but learn from experience. Women in India are not allow to think outside the box society puts them into. The BK life does not really change that, it just changes the contents of the box.

BK social theory that it should not all be taken and applied universally because SOME of it is actually deeply retrogressive. What I read in some of your posts on this and other matters is a sort of ... what is the word ... snobbery/shame/inhibition/chauvinism thing many cultures have about "not talking in front of the neighbours ... not bring shame on the society ... not being seen to question in public but keeping up a public face".

What I have seen in the BKWSU is an emphasis on public face in contradiction to the reality. It is a wrong emphasis. Non-BKs are force fed the PR version, there is little mature discussion about what really goes on. I aplaud Di and the others for sacrificing their privacy, suffering the humiliation but making public the contradictions and hypocrisies so that others might not suffer and positive change come about.

You see, I still believe the world is evolving. You believe that it has all be a downward spiral since 5,000 years. I know the box you/they want to fit us into and I am opening the lid and writing the contents on the outside of it so that other can read them first before entering.

Thank you for showing us typical text book 'BK think' ... but open up and expand your mind to embrace reality Andrey. Please.

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Re: Welcoming personal views

Post by paulkershaw » 19 Jun 2007

paulkershaw wrote:...welcome your personal viewpoints on these questions ...
Exactly why I asked it this way, and used the word 'personal' on purpose in my posting to Andrey. I have not been disappointed in the answers received from him at all, as well as some of the postings by some other forum members. Thanx for pointing out the 'personal' difference Abek.

I see the words in your posting " Orthodox" - "Dependency" and "Shroud" as well as 'Clarify' being of particular interest and offer some insight into the BK condition.

I realise that some do and some don't see the difference, and by the shortness of the answers I am receiving from Andrey, I am perceiving (hopefully wrongly) that he is not happy with my questions to him, which is a pity.

I am still hoping and would welcome his personal viewpoints though, and it would be most interesting (to me) to see a more personal and less orthodox side of him. However, the choice of what to believe in or what to 'preach' remains with each individual indeed and this I will respect although may not neccessarily agree with ... exactly as others are free to do the same with me ~ but at least let's talk about i ...

He does give me a feeling though of me being back in a BK classroom and when asking a pertinent question, I get told that, "this is the truth and I should believe in it, or can 'my intellect' not understand the truth???"

A personal and individual question indeed.

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Re: Welcoming personal views

Post by fluffy bunny » 19 Jun 2007

paulkershaw wrote:He does give me a feeling though of me being back in a BK classroom and when asking a pertinent question, I get told that, "this is the truth and I should believe in it, or can 'my intellect' not understand the truth???"
I am not accusing nor attacking andrey here.

The BKs really do think that they are utterly superior to all of the rest of the world and have all the answers. As andrey did say, "that they are right even when they are wrong" because they have the one true god.

In truth, the majority of the Indian ones, or at least the dominant Indian ones I experienced were in reality just lower caste, small hard headed and bigotted - limited let's say - in a manner that is typical of their caste and an embarassment to more intelligent, liberal Indians. And many fairly inexperienced or educated white folks got on on copying whatever they were like. Aping their thoughts, ways and mannerisms down to head shakes, aphorisms and responses to questions. Carbon copy clones for the sake of safety.

Yes, it may be that they have become from a socially revolutionary force in 1930 Sind, a sort of repressive Victorian nunnery. (I also point out here that they were not unique is being a social force for women in India or the Sind at that time). Yes, some are somewhere between daft and stupid ... even if they were able to keep their pants up and legs closed for all their lives.

I know exactly what you are saying Paul. I experienced directly from the chubby inner circle of old virgins that rule their roost. There is this thing that they really are jumping up and down thinking that what they have in their hands is the "diamonds and gold" of Godly wisdom and that anyone that questions it must be ignorant or evil and needs beaten down to size. Push too hard (i.e. question) and they will just ignore to bannish you out of their reality to go off and mold others to it.

Of course, there were nice, sweet and inoffensive types .. but without a Lekhraj Kirpalani to guide them and balance the family out, the Alpha females have grabbed the guddhis. Many societies are based on the Alpha female model (dominant females). In fact, I would pretty much say that most societies are matriarchal. It is just that the men are too stupid to release that they are being led and controlled by women. :wink: Was it Athens or Rome that the world brought the Empire to its begging knees by collectively withdrawing sexual services? Most orthodox men would and do fall to pieces if and when their woman left them.

Andrey, do you think you were a BK sister from Om Mandli in your past life? Are you not still handing out Pre-War Gyan?

I also underline that women can deeply violate men and give them real pain but would define it as emotional as well as mental. Given the option of a good kicking or long term emotional blackmail, I know which one I would chose. Violence does not need to be visual to exist. There is also the violation of women towards their sons.

Again, I think we need to know more about the reality of relationships in India rather than BK Golden Age theory. No one, especially no Indian BK, has really had the courage to go into this in details. It is a great social taboo in India, as andrey is demonstrating on behalf of the PBKs, and yet it deeply colors the advice and attitudes of the BKWSU.

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Post by abrahma kumar » 19 Jun 2007

So ex-l, Could this be where Annie Besant, one time preseident of The Theosophical Society - Adyar might come in? There is a thread: Influences of Besant, Theosophy & Freemasonry on Lekhraj Kirpalani in the BKWSU history part of the forum.

I have been wondering recently whether a lot of the BKWSU oblox associated with male/female interaction is not heavily influenced by attitudes from a bygone era and/or a compelling need to redress a life-experience that was sheer hell (for want if a better expression) for women. I do NOT ask this as if to suggest that ONLY BKs have relationship difficulties; neither do i imply that life is now utopian for sisters.

As ex-l offered:
... think we need to know more about the reality of relationships in India rather than BK Golden Age theory ... in details.

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Post by di » 19 Jun 2007

I am so pleased at what is being discussed here along this line. I think this aspect has a great deal to do with understanding what the BK lifestyle is about, the whys and wherefores. I had alluded to this before some time back. To explore the very beginnings of the movement, and the reasons behind it, will certainly assist in getting at the real truth of what is going on.

I would be also interested as this topic develops to look at why the males find the BKs so attractive. I also think this is important for the women to explore what was so attractive about being celibate and the BK women authoritarian view. Not celibacy in the sense "I become pure" view, but celibacy or the initial turning your back on relationships.

OK, we are getting into psychology here. For example, my ex was abandoned early in life by the most important female, his mother, who then came in and out of his childhood. This is not to critisize her but to lay the foundation of this idea.

My understanding is he has always had a condescending attitude towards women, but gravitates towards the more dominant controlling type of female. Soft on the outside but demanding on the inside. Maybe a cry for the matriarch to have taken control of him as should have been done instead of him being second in her life?

Now, of course, he is number one. He is living with her again. She has no other man in her life and is finding many things for him to do and fix. No wonder he did not know how to handle me. I was in a position of control and authority, BUT while i am a strong person, inside I am as soft as they come and don't like to demand or dominate. I prefer equal standing.

If I have to get to a stage where I take control, it means it is the end of things anyway as far as relationships go. If someone's behaviour is continually totally unacceptable. So ... a whole unknown for him ... he couldn't have related to it. He would have had no skills or experience in managing that way of life. He would have had no way of recognizing this way of living. We worked at the same place for many, many months and became friends over that time before we became involved. So he would have only seen me as the leader, the one who controlled the microcosm.

What I said had to happen and, in an emergency, staff had to obey me instantly and unconditionally. The cry was, "get Sister, get Sister". I was called for continually to deal with situations. And this is what he witnessed and initially how he saw me. My nurses knew what I was about and we were great friends, only when I had to did I pull rank because someone was at risk or needed medical attention.

I hadn't thought of this before. Possibly when the BK situation started to become obvious with him, if I had pulled rank and demanded and controlled in the beginning and MANIPULATED - when his feelings and commitment to me was still the strongest force - this may have had a different ending. Interesting. One problem though ... Not my style. I prefer a person to make their own choices. To be themselves not an extension of what I want. He obviously prefers that role.

One of the things I loved so much about him was that I did not have to think for him... or so I thought. As time went on and the meditation increased he became unable to think clearly or plan or even address many everyday things that needed attending.

He goes back to a life style which rejects all others and is dominated and controlled by women who, to cut through the sugar coating, tell him exactly what to do, how to behave and how to think.

This is why I appreciate Andrey's post so much. While I disagree with his views on women's place in society, I believe he is allowing us insight into the base of the BK society and where it began. I would very much welcome other males to contribute regarding their relationships as far as the domination aspect, and also for the women. If you prefer to remain anonymous, please PM me and I would put the information here. This is a very personal subject. I think though, by exploring this, we may have a partial answer to why the BK lifestyle is so attractive to so many.

This may partly account for the pull the BK lifestyle has on certain people. It is certainly a way to escape, to 'heal' ones wounds and experiences, and be given excuses for it. Unfortunately, it doesn't work, and this method cannot 'heal' these problems/issues, only cover them up and they will resurface eventually.

Why wouldn't women in an oppressed, impoverished society where their value was nil want to be a part of an elite society where they were safe from these abuses? I would. But we don't live in India, so why do individuals in the West want to embrace an archaic view and a way of life where they have the best excuse not to have relationships which is dominated, led and controlled by women? Why do women want to be in this position of power and why are men drawn to a society controlled by women?

This also is directed at me and why was I attached so much to an individual with these issues? Why did I not see them earlier? What was it that i saw as so attractive? Was it the BK soft sugar coating that he still had left in him?

He appeared to be a man who could take control if neccessary, but obviously not. Why did I end up in this situation? He certainly is not all to blame. I had equal share in my life and what direction it takes ... mmmm ... food for thought indeed. (I also was brought up in a matriarchal family, and the power struggles between the man and woman were numerous. That is why I very much do not want to live that lifestyle).

I am sure, even in India, to have had a retired business man recruiting women from around the area, leaving their families and husbands, soliciting their finances without an oath of celibacy would have led to bloodshed. If celibacy wasn't mandatory, we could all imagine how far the BK movement would have gotten. Even with this, it was almost outlawed.

Is the 'purity' issue what saved it?

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Post by di » 20 Jun 2007

Slightly different slant here, but if combined with the above line of questioning provides a highly compelling scenario.

I just watched a Oprah show about addiction. It demonstrated from a scientific research point of view how the brain is hijacked. Things of high importance and value, such as family, work, relationships etc, are of far less importance than the compulsion to satiate the addiction ... nicotine, drugs, alcohol etc.

It showed scans of the brain that became highly activated when the smallest of 'triggers' were shown. These areas are normally activated in the relationship, ethics, work etc. So these are totally overtaken by the new stimulant and become of far less importance than the new priority.

Given that Raja Yoga, and other forms of intense trance meditation, release the brains own highly and I mean Highly, addictive natural form of opiates, combined with the individuals own psychological vulnerabilities, and then combined with a diet which enhances the effect, this can result in a obsessive, destructive compelling lifestyle. Now, I am not a scientist and do not profess to be one, I am only documenting factual evidence combined with my own experiences in this post.

My ex even said to me that he thought in the very beginning how some of the ideas seemed to be ridiculous beyond believe and so far over the top. After going for some time these 'teachings' then made perfect sense. From a person who has never been a BK, and from others in the same position as myself who have heard the basic beliefs, I cannot understand how anyone could even contemplate these as being true. In fact, when I was telling my family they seriously suggested that I need a psychiatrist myself. Trust me, I had only heard this sort of thing before when I worked in a psychiatric hospital from the patients who were in full psychosis.

This line of thinking would also support those who 'leave' the BKs because they are disillusioned, and/or the meditation ceases to have its intense effect. Those post-BKs that try to assimalate once again into society and find they cannot. Triggers are everywhere for them to return to the BK lifestyle. Many of the other addicts from the show also took maybe 10 years to 'come through' before they could act. It has to take a more powerful thing to override the hijaking of the brain.

Therapy, treatment, rehabilition and drug therapy, desire for relationships and many other things to initiate the withdrawl. Effective only as long as the triggers are secondary to the new stimulants. This would also clearly explain how BKs with alcoholism, drug problems and MPD etc found they no longer had the compulsion to fulfill their addictions/issues. Their brains had been reprogrammed, or 'hijacked', to satiate a new programming and new addiction.

With it given the 'blessing by God' that this was the only spiritual path etc, and the fear and guilt instilled repeatedly and the self and group hypnosis scenario, all give overwhelming trigger supports imaginable. Makes sense to me anyway. BapDada also was committed was he not, previous to starting the movement, where he could nothing but draw on the walls with crayons???

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Reward systems and addictions

Post by joel » 20 Jun 2007

Yes, Di,

Thanks for posting your thoughts. I think the elephant in the living room is that people's reward systems are incredibly malleable, and can be readily manipulated.

Addiction is one visible form of a person's reward system getting hijacked. The diversity in what thrills us leads a youngster who like bugs into biology, and one who likes singing into music. Football fans, gamblers, cat fanciers, many enthusiasts could be considered addicts. Fossil hunters, meteorite hunters ...

Criminalization makes addictions worse, yet society demands retribution, we are told, to send a message and to satisfy the raging mobs that would otherwise take the law into their own hands.

To be power hungry, is that a sickness or legitimate ambition?

Many things compete for our devotion. Morphine may appear more harmful than God, but in the first case, the side effects are known, the substance is well tolerated, and an effective dose is much less than a lethal dose. Actually, morphine is a blessing to anyone who is in serious pain, or could be if it were more available in medical pure and controlled doses. People suffering terribly are not given enough because doctors are afraid of being slapped. Society doesn't want people to be able to dull their pain.

The God addiction, if faith in God leads to being manipulated and abused by others, it too is an addictive harm. Some can control their addiction, some lose themselves completely.

Drug addicts are concerned about fellows who are getting too messed up. God addicts believe you cannot get too maniacal and fanatical about God. This ecstasy will make your personality pure, cure you of your unconscious, conflicting desires, make everything wonderful.

Drug dealers and faith healers both promise the world ...

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Thank you, di

Post by abrahma kumar » 20 Jun 2007

Yes di, so many worthwhile things to churn on. Thanks

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Post by fluffy bunny » 20 Jun 2007

We are probably drifting off to a new and very valuable topic here. I am so grateful to have Di on forum to raise these issues, as she has personal and some reasonable professional insight into the equations. I wish that other partners of BKs with similar insights would also contribute.

As an aside, I wrote a relative post on antoher thread regarding BK's "Charts", the personal diaries they are encouraged to keep and show the SS or Shiva Baba. it related to the system of punishment and rewards that I saw and experienced in the hands of the BK dominatrices.

Yes .. hugh scope for analysis here. Personally, I feel that my greatest interest lies with a pathological psycho-analysis of the early period and its surrounding environment.

The psycho-analytical view of BK or Gyan is entirely alien ... excluded ... verboten ... I donot think that I ever heard any BK or senior considering it. Again, to gain benefit from Andrey's input on another topic, you can see the general attitude towards Freud or, we pressume any of the other psycho-analytical schools.

They were merely Kali Yugi Shudras at the fag end of creation, probably having their first birth and Golden Age at the very end of the 5,000 Year Cycle ... lowly human beings versus God ... no benefit at all in considering ... no benefit in practising ... ignorance and delusion (... and God forbid that it actually reveals something!!!).

Of course, the BK view is not true. An analytical point of view has existed as long as civilisation has and is well documented in many classical traditions including Hindu. Personally, with the tiny exclusion of Adi Dev and the disclosure of Lekhraj Kirpalani's psychotic episode, I think that it has only been since the discovery of some of the original materials that we can start upon it with confidence, although a general theory applied to role of dominant females is certainly valid.

The institutionally enforced, manic lies (re-writing, historical revision) and denial would be another place to start.

there are a few good academics to look at in this area, Julia Howell is the first, Lawrence Babbs and Richard Barz give a good societal overview of that time, John Walliss and Benny Beit-Hallahmi a more current psychological analysis, especially of the End of the World-ism within the organization.

We need more academics that are not seduced by the PR and BKs sirens who are able to get in under the skin of BKs ... but they too will only be dismissed as Shudras ... let's face it, from a BK point of view ... what can and do Shudras know and add to the debate!?!

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Post by abrahma kumar » 20 Jun 2007

ex-l wrote:... and BKs sirens who are able to get in under the skin of BKs ... but they too will only be dismissed as Shudras ... let's face it, from a BK point of view ... what can and do Shudras know and add to the debate!?!
ex-l, this observation outlines one of the main difficulties that i see as implicit in a BKWSU student 'publicly outing themselves'. I observe that the level of belief runs very, very deep; especially in those students who have been around for 20+ years. The good old phrase "taking an axe to ones foot" springs to mind as a representation of what one can imagine as the widespread BK opinion of exiting.

Anyway, some of my interest too is in the area of "pathological psycho-analysis of the early period and its surrounding environment". Recently I started to wonder if I am a 'second birth BK'; and what it was that could have led to my 'picking up the thread of BK life once again' in this birth, only to find myself exiting once again? (crazy thoughts uh!).

But since this forum existence has/is serving as a place for my continued spiritual development, I feel that there is real scope to be the 'owner' of my own destiny.

The typical BK skin is worn in such a tightly fitting manner that it is a wonder how come the soul is able to 'fly'. We were all believer's once. There is a lot to learn.

Thanks again to Di and all you folk.

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