A common link amongst the women

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alladin
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to women who love too much

Post by alladin » 05 Apr 2007

I don't know whether this topic was started as a sisters only space, if not, maybe we should cut one out specifically some time soon.

I always felt that in the genderless holy BK org, there was no chance to share any women's feelings, as all of that 's taboo. Even a natural thing such as " Do we have any frustrated maternal instincts" our specific way of being in Gyan and interpret our role, or whatever, was never spoken about. As we cut ourselves out from our lokik girlfriends because of our totally different choices and lifestyle, we become isolated and at the same time our women feelings are still underneath, as sanskars don't disappear overnite. But we cannot talk with anybody except for incorporeal God and go and cry in his arms when needed. Shaktis are connected with Shiva, but are a group (9 of them or 7, in the scriptures?)

So when we look at women's stories we see that especially spiritual inclined women are always the vulnerable ones who "love too much", the motherly sanskar of "Mercy". I admit that sometimes I envy ladies who learnt the male habit of "using and throwing away". But that's not us, is it?

Meeting "spiritual" men, we lower our defences for later discovering that they are often disfunctional, not clear, manipulative and giving mixed messages or having hidden agendas. They are often transferring the typical lokik male defects in the alokik, just wearing white clothes. I am not giving any solution, I just value the sharing amongst women and empathize at the moment.

One thing I wanted to ask, and I hope Arjun or some Hindi speaking soul can clarify: what does Baba mean when he says we should only have "superficial" love with human souls, and that all our deep love should be for Baba? Superficial sounds terrible, in the west, but maybe I've just been given a lesson on how we should not open our heart to any humans in Kaliyug. What a pity, what a bitter pill to be swollen, the one of detachment!

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Brother's who need to learn how to love

Post by abrahma kumar » 05 Apr 2007

Thanks Alladin and | hope that I am not loitering by posting this here. All that you say is true - if a litttle harsh which feeling may be due to the accumulated bruising on my own psyche (quite a lot actually).

Brothers, in case you wonder by here and this is declared a sisters only thread then maybe consideration ought to be given to one on similar - if not exact - vein. Perhaps: "Brother's learning to love".

Good luck on the thread's progress Alladin.

Oh, and in case anyone out there is/has been wondering - as I never expressly declared before because I never thought it made a material difference (and no I do not apply that yardstick to everything in my life) - Abrahma Kumar is the nick of a soul in a male body.

Overnight I came to face-up to the fact that any 'selective self-processing' is a sign of my own dysfunction! Now, where is that 'getting ready for counselling' form that i need to complete with utmost haste?

Ciao

aBeK

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Post by di » 08 Apr 2007

To find out that you , everything you have given, the very essence of yourself, is now considered to be something to be avoided at all costs, to totally detach and rid oneself of, that it is something that will make one impure and that it is something that prevents someone from reaching God is a very hard bitter pill to take. To be now considered an outsider when once you were told you are a Queen. To know that you are thought of as untouchable.

Doesn't do a great deal for one's self esteem. Its a hard thing to deal with. Makes one feel very worthless and of no value. Scum. Plague of the earth and heavens. These are the thoughts and values he embraces and now how he must view me because it is certainly the way he is treating me when we get down to grass root level.

Well, if that is how i am seen and treated, I will never polute their doorstep with my feet. All the talk of love. They bring about the destruction of the world by destroying people. If you don't join 'em, they kill you inside.

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Partners and BK life

Post by rocksanne » 09 Apr 2007

Hi Jan,Di, Katie and Proy

I guess I am one of those sisters who left her husband because of my involvement with the BK's (actually he had become physically as well as verbally abusive) I am sure that the relationship would not have lasted anyway. Actually I never contemplated another relationship because that was against the teachings of the BK's.

In fact, before I had even read what you had all been saying on the forum, I had the feeling to call my ex and apologize to him about the sorrow and confusion that I had caused. He appreciated the call. At this time there seemed to be many sisters leaving their spouses/partners because the male partner could not tolerate the lifestyle especially the Celibacy. I am so surprised to see so many women affected by BK partners.

I did meet with a BK friend (a Brother ) a while ago after his wife had left him. The interesting thing was that I used to enjoy his company as he had a great sense of humour. However he was very "detached" and did not seem to be in touch with his emotions at all. In fact he had attained that Zombie like state that some of you have mentioned. This was a big wake up call for me and I wondered if I had become like this.

I believe that I was always a good mother, and my kids always tell me this. However I think that I was very out of contact with the realities of living in the world with "lokik people" and had bought into the philosophy that Destruction was the only answer to clean up our planet. In fact now I think that this is abdicating responsibility.

There are plenty of men who have lost their partners to the BK's. Maybe they just don't know about the forum.

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Post by mr green » 09 Apr 2007

Yes Rocksanne, there are plenty of men who've lost their partners, in fact I am sure it happens to men more than women, just look at the numbers ...

Men just react differently when hurt, as I posted before. i have seen plenty of it, men tend to explode then go into depression ... it's what boys do

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It's not just the BK's!

Post by rocksanne » 10 Apr 2007

Hi Sisters

I met a woman recently who had lost her husband to Taoism. He had also taken a vow of Celibacy without consulting her and had become emotionally shut down and had been meditating a lot. Like we BK's his diet contained no garlic or opinion.

She was distraught and she had 3 teenage kids at home. She said that she still loved him very much.

He moved out so that he could live this lifestyle. I was in the same seminar and got to spend a fair bit of time with her. I think that it was meeting her and hearing of her experiences that made me phone my ex-husband and apologise to him after more than a decade!

Rock- (you don't have to put on that white sari) - anne

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Isolation of bros and sisters

Post by rocksanne » 10 Apr 2007

Actually, I found that the separation of the Brothers and sisters was great at 1st in the BK's. It was good not having to worry about being too close to these strange creatures initially. I remember going on my 1st retreat. Can you imagine my surprise when I was told off for sitting at a table with brothers on it? We were supposed to eat separately! Swimming was also frowned on as you would have to wear bathers! (I loved swimming!) However fortunately as a responsible parent I had to go into the water with my kids when they were swimming so that way I did not miss out. I also got to go on holidays, go to the movies etc in order to accompany them. Lucky me :P

However after a while I began to miss male company. :( After all you Bros are different but you do have your good points and apparently you make up nearly half the human race so I need to know how to relate to you!

Things are not as srict now in terms of dining etc., but I remember Dadi Janki saying that she had never dined with a man, only Baba. Poor her is what I say! You guys are not that bad!

Rocksanne

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garlic and opinion

Post by proy » 10 Apr 2007

Rocksanne wrote:Like we BK's his diet contained no garlic or opinion.
Yep! I remember that. Not allowed any opinion in the BKs. You can have one here though. :wink:

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sacrifice AT ONCE!

Post by alladin » 10 Apr 2007

Hi, Roxanne, totally agree with you about the swimming, the sitting separately and we can all talk about it it again some other time. You might have already checked the healthy exercise in The Common room thread; may be you want to add some comments in there also!! These stories become such big issues and caused us so many traumas, in the old days! Sometimes I wonder if things have changed slightly, recently. But actually, just last summer, my center-in-charge made a big fuss about us wearing half sleeve T shirts. So I don't know if puritanism is still lurking and expressing itself in this organisation, after all. It is such a good tool in "controlling" and "correcting" ( see the What's pulling me away topic, if you wish!)

Change topic. Thinking about all this flexibility and abilty to cope with men and waiting for them to make up their minds, I was daydreaming about the glorious Copper Age days when knights would go out of their ways (horse riding!) to liberate their Maid, climbing towers, fight enemies to get to her, chop dragons'heads off ... Baba says sacrifice has to be done that way, at once, without hesitation. In Hindu rituals, it's still that way. The good omen and appreciation from God, is gained by instant sacrifice.

The blade has to be sharp, though, for that to be accomplished. At the end of Kaliyug, women have accepted that they are no queens or maids to anybody. We do not deserve any act of heroism from any body. Self esteem is low. We try our best thinking we are good and merciful and remain as "sitting ducks" waiting impotent in front of people who cannot make up their minds. Pressuring is not cool, cornering someone is not politically correct, so??? Let me finish just here daydreaming about dragons and holding Mulan's little one as a teddybear in the meantime!

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Re: sacrifice AT ONCE!

Post by rocksanne » 13 Apr 2007

alladin wrote:Sometimes I wonder if things have changed slightly, recently. But actually, just last summer, my center-in-charge made a big fuss about us wearing half sleeve T shirts. So I don't know if puritanism is still lurking and expressing itself in this organisation, after all.
Actually the last transmission of Baba's meeting that I went to I had been to a party before and did not have time to go home and change. I came in my "party dress" makeup etc. It was liberating to do so.

Our Centre wassis do wear half sleeve T shirts (very daring!)

:evil: Rocksanne

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Re: to women who love too much

Post by fluffy bunny » 13 Apr 2007

alladin wrote:Meeting "spiritual" men, we lower our defences for later discovering that they are often disfunctional, not clear, manipulative and giving mixed messages or having hidden agendas. They are often transferring the typical lokik male defects in the alokik, just wearing white clothes. I am not giving any solution, I just value the sharing amongst women and empathize at the moment.
I missed this post above and it makes a very good point. Societally weak and feminized males, eunuchs essentially, can and have transposed themselves into more powerful positions with so-called spiritual orders. The leadership within BKWSU encourages such males as they are not a challenge to their own Queen Bee status. (The old "facial hair" issue being representative of the threat of masculine men.)

In other social groups or religions, this has gone to an even further extreme to corrupt so-called spiritual orders through the influence of homosexual self-interested parties, e.g. Friends of the Western Buddhist Order, or paedophilia, e.g. the Holy Roman Empire/Catholicism. I might go even suggest that in the West, outside of the BKWSU, this has gone even further due to the rise and increasing influence of homosexuals within influential industries such as fashion, entertainment and the media so that the image of a desirable man (and indeed women) has been significantly changed and the asexual/transexual/androgeny is in ascendancy.

I think the effete "spiritual male" concept is a contemporary fashion experiment. A "drone clone" product that can only be afforded in a rich and powerful society. It may even be a macrobiological reaction within a species that has outreached itself i.e., needs to stop breeding, has no more land/tribes/species to conquer. I wondered if it was to some degree a socially redundant role but then I realised that it was just changing of roles to traditionally female ones. Even biologists predict a long term demise of "males".

I have heard this from non-BK women when they met a new man, the joy of ... "Oh, he is sooo spiritual". Within a few months it has turned to the frustration of ... "Oh, he is sooo damned spiritual".

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sex depends on hormones?

Post by alladin » 01 Jun 2007

Talking with some girlfriends, a gynecologist and a bk, about celibacy, the doc one said, that since female hormones decrease as we get older, from menopause on the sexual drive is weaker. So, no surprise that in India, people over 60 or so go into “retirement stage” easily! She said that women gradually loose interest in sex ( maybe not the same for everybody, but the general bio clock is such). So, I was thinking about the challenge abstinence represents for young BKs, and my Bk friend was pointing out the effort endured not to break Shrimat or having any thoughts about sex, even! Easier for some retired sic!

This sounds logical if sex is only based on bodyconsciousness. But if +when it's a more complex exchange, can it wane just because the body "doesn't need it" and procreation time is over?

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Re: sex depends on hormones?

Post by joel » 02 Jun 2007

alladin wrote:Talking with some girlfriends, a gynecologist and a BK, about celibacy, the doc one said, that since female hormones decrease as we get older, from menopause on the sexual drive is weaker. So, no surprise that in India, people over 60 or so go into “retirement stage” easily! She said that women gradually loose interest in sex ( maybe not the same for everybody, but the general bio clock is such). So, I was thinking about the challenge abstinence represents for young BKs, and my BK friend was pointing out the effort endured not to break Shrimat or having any thoughts about sex, even! Easier for some retired sic!

This sounds logical if sex is only based on bodyconsciousness. But if +when it's a more complex exchange, can it wane just because the body "doesn't need it" and procreation time is over?
The latest I read is that women can remain sexually active right into their eighties, if they are in good health. Reduced hormones are not necessarily a cause of loss of sex drive. Hormone levels may be associated with vaginal dryness, and which can be treated with hormone supplements (estradiol being the main one.)

The 'your body needs to have it supplemented' theory was untested, was recently shown to increase incidence of breast and other cancers, so much that the study was halted. More than two generations practice of prescribing powerful steroid medications was shown to incur significant risks offsetting any putative therapeutic value.

Personal lubricants as well as such naturally available substances as saliva have also been shown suitable to deal with dryness, or in circumcised males, caused by the absence of the inserter effect served by the undisturbed foreskin. (Aside, do you remember those plastic inserter tubes that tampon may still be shipped in? How strangely ironic to be making inserters for tampons on one hand, and removing the inserters from living penises.)

With women, a slow luxurious arousal period is well known to enhance the lubricating secretions in their vaginas. An active sex life is, I believe, associated with longer life spans. It's not that kids that masterbate go blind and palsied. Many of our best athletes are sexually active. It is part of healthy adult behavior.

The taboo against sexual activity is thus pathological, interfering with the healthy function and self-image of the individual. BKWSU is responsible for triggering abusive self denial that injures families by dividing and shaming intimacy between spouses, and of parents toward their children. As in many other religions, sensually rich contact (needed for a growing brain to learn to regulate itself) is conflated with inappropriate sexuality, boundary violations and abuse.

But look at what happens in the 'purer' environment of the BKWSU family. Buttressed by teh word of the Murli, teachers accept that 'some bricks will break' under the intense fire of BK initiation into the group's ritualized disciplines and the blind obedience. We see blind obedience in many of the group's most talented, dedicated and vulnerable followers.

So that is their Faustian bargain, to accept causing chaos in some lives (the Trickster effect) in exchange for unearthing the group's "original jewels" who will provide the raw talent and charisma (and money) to expand the group's reach.

The BKs do learn to 'love bomb'. Less-paranoid people might see that behavior as welcoming, as communities of Christians or other demoninations (oops, denominations) welcome outsiders, and as some people spontaneously open their homes and lives to others. Is there a manipulative agenda present, a sneaky subterfuge? There is clearly an intention to create stories of people discovering soul-consciousness as a path to self-realization. As old as first stories told to build up soldiers' morale. Belongingness, heritage, is the first myth of group bonding. It promises everything, and in the end its certificates cannot be redeemed for spit. Nevertheless a sense of belonging is central mammalian characteristic vital to the health of armies, families, neighborhoods.

What distinguishes the BKWSU approach is the attempt to systematically practice love-bombing, eye-staring, indoctrination and ritual in order to recruit financial and human resources to their cause of self-sustenance and growth.

If there is a higher purpose, it is unclear how 'pure' it is, if this purpose is willing to accept traumatizing many individuals for the sake of latching onto a few.

I've been reading a biography of Robert Oppenheimer. Being a member of the Communist Party in those days meant being willing to take orders from another authority (which might be associated with Stalin's Soviets.) Oppie thought that the truth of his refusal to submit himself to 'party discipline' would protect him from charges of wrongdoing.

Charges of treason almost by definition related to turning over one's will to an outside authority, allying oneself with an outside authority. This is perfectly respectable, however, if that authority emanates from legitimized government.

The 'surrender' considered to be such a high virtue among BKs (and among Jews, when Isaac was ready to thow his son down a well on God's order). Dadi Kumarka, it is said, would have jumped in a well without question on Baba's direction.

So the 'Mind Control' video is still relevant, and all cult brainwashing charges are still there. I think a senior BK could easily deflect the issue by speaking about how many have been helped by BK spiritual teachings. I know that Maureen Chen's charmed BK life has been filled with such episodes. I think it is also true that people who are hurt and go crazy tend to be left and forgotten. All of BKs are indocrinated to accept this as drama, just as nurses and doctors are indoctrinated to accept the suffering in which they participate, as both active and enabling agents, concurrent with some people being miraculously healed.

Are BKs more deceptive than others? More manipulative? Or do they simply attract a different contingent of followers?

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sex life for oldies

Post by alladin » 02 Jun 2007

Joel, Hi, I think you are right about everything thing you wrote. And the planes full of old ladies flying to selected destination to get a treat from gigolots (female, granny version of sex tourism) cannot be denied. Well, my doctor friend suggested that may be many of them just go to get "a hug"!!! I think she got it all wrong!!! Any pet you can share hugs, purrs etc ... with, so why would they put their cats down and buy a package tour to Brasil or Cuba???

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Post by heshe » 25 Jun 2007

I was 18 when joining embraced celibacy though I soon learnt what I had taken on. It can, under the guidance of mature spiritual teachers, be of benifit. Though to just say, "do not do it" is not good enough.

I love women and have accepted the normal biological functions of my body. What being chaste has taught me is to have control over simply being drawn into empty sexual encounters.

The first 4 years were actually very empowering though i was a walking erection 8) towards the end and it had the opposite effect where all i saw was boobs and crutches. You could imagine the frustration for a young person. What would have been nice is some guidance from seniour brothers. The talks on wet dreams by Atam Prakash just did not cut it. That was 20 years ago and i can truly say it is unnatural to deny yourself intimacy and affection.

I did know a brother who did not touch a living thing for ten years. Not even a pussycat. He had to get laid and did. I am all for mature open discussion about the realities of suppresion on young people in any group that, on one hand, will say don't have sex but not follow up with tried and true methods that make the experience beneficial. Sex is over rated but love and intimacy are a must.

No, i did not go blind 8) 8).

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