Ex-PBK Shivsena's beliefs

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Feminine language

Post by new knowledge » 04 Apr 2008

Offtopic: Dear admin, I am reposting this article as 1st article is subject to edit. Please delete 1st article entitled 'About feminine language'.
shivsena wrote:Moreover, i feel that irrespective of our bodies we are all souls and all souls are Brothers as per Murlis, so i address everyone as (soul) Brother.
Thanks for feedback reply. So, do you mean that as souls we should address each other as Brother & not as Sister irrespective of the gender status of our bodies? As all of us are Brothers, does not this mean that we all are 'spiritual sons' of the Supreme Father & none of us may be addressed as His 'spiritual daughter'??? Is this your logic? If yes, then the Supreme Father should not have to use any feminine kinship terminology like 'Bachchee, Kumari' to address any soul. But does not the references of such terminology (Bachchee/Kumari) in Murlis & Avyakt Vanis (indirectly) indicate that also the Supreme Father prefers to address some souls with feminine kinship terminology? - A big question!

And, if the Supreme Father also applies feminine terms to address some souls, then what's problem for you to use the feminine term 'PBK Sisters'?

Again, why the name 'Prajapita Brahmakumari' is suggested instead of 'Prajapita Brahmakumar'? Thus, according to Murlis, 'Prajapita Brahmakumari' is a valid term; then why do you avoid to use 'PBK Sisters'?

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Re: PBK shivsena

Post by arjun » 04 Apr 2008

shivsena wrote:First of all, we have not yet become children of Prajapita Brahma, as P. Sangamyug has still not started. Moreover, i feel that irrespective of our bodies we are all souls and all souls are Brothers as per Murlis, so i address everyone as (soul) Brother.
Dear brother,

Om Shanti. On the one hand you say that no BK/PBK is even 1% soul conscious and on the other hand you say that you see everyone as souls/brothers. Although it is good that you are practicing soul consciousness by addressing everyone as brothers, but are both of your above statements not contradictory to each other? Does it not give an impression to others that "while you are actually practicing soul consciousness, all other BKs/PBKs are just wasting their time pretending to be soul conscious"?

But the Murlis spoken by ShivBaba through Brahma Baba (which you believe) also do not direct the Brahmin children to address each other as brothers. Since most of the readers of this section of the forum are BKs/PBKs/ex-BKs, they may understand your terminology, but if someone starts addressing his wife as brother in the midst of his lokik friends and relatives or if someone addresses his female colleagues at office as brothers, then will it be in accordance to the Shrimat given in the Murlis that you believe? When the world has not been able to digest the fact that BKs see their wives as sisters, then how can they digest the fact that the wives of BKs/PBKs are brothers unless they too become soul conscious?

Murlis say that we have to see each other as brothers/souls and not address each other as brothers. As children of Prajapita Brahma we are supposed to see and address each other as brothers and sisters.

With regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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Re: PBK shivsena

Post by shivsena » 06 Apr 2008

Dear new knowledge Bhai.

I have already clarified my stand on why i address souls as brothers; if you are interested in dissection of insignificant words then you may continue to do so. i think it would be better if you start dissecting words like 'ShivBaba', Alaf, brahma etc which will go a long way in solving the mysteries of Godly knowledge, rather than wast time on trivial matters on how and why i address somebody on the internet.
shivsena.

Dear arjun Bhai.

It is a pity to note that a soul of your calibre, has made an issue of a non-issue (a insignificant matter of how and why of addressing souls). You could have easily ignored it and left it to souls like new knowledge, who keeps on drifting from party to party and is still not sure where he belongs. I had started a new thread about bharatwasis and addressed specifically to you and you chose to ignore it or still thinking about it.
BTW, if you are not aware then there exists a point in Murlis that ''tum bacchon ki Bhai Bhai ki dhristi honi chahiye, Bhai-behan ki bhi nahin"; Also i do not know who is who on this forum, as everyone is icognito and so keeping this in mind i address everyone as brothers.
Is that a crime that it needs investigation and dissection??

shivsena.

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Re: PBK shivsena

Post by arjun » 06 Apr 2008

shivsena wrote:It is a pity to note that a soul of your calibre, has made an issue of a non-issue (a insignificant matter of how and why of addressing souls). You could have easily ignored it and left it to souls like new knowledge, who keeps on drifting from party to party and is still not sure where he belongs. I had started a new thread about bharatwasis and addressed specifically to you and you chose to ignore it or still thinking about it.
Dear brother,
Om Shanti. I will not reply to your emotional outbursts (sorry for using your patent word :) . As regards the thread on bharatwasis, I have read it but it is not even 24 hours since you posted it and you expect an immediate reply from me. I have written many times that I have many other lokik and alokik responsibilities apart from this forum and hence it is difficult for me to either reply to any post immediately or to reply to all the posts. Anyways, the topic of Bharat and Bharatwasis has been discussed by you many times and I found that I have an old reply of Baba to your querry about Bharat, which I will post as soon as possible.
Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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Significant & insignificant issues

Post by new knowledge » 15 Apr 2008

shivsena wrote:if you are interested in dissection of insignificant words then you may continue to do so.
Sorry, I was not aware to the fact that those matters (though related to Godly knowledge) which are not clear to you are insignificant.
i think it would be better if you start dissecting words like 'ShivBaba', Alaf, Brahma etc which will go a long way in solving the mysteries of the Godly knowledge,
Here you quote in such a way that I've never asked queries to you about ShivBaba, Alaf, Brahma, Bindi ShivBap, RamShivBaba etc! But you hardly responded positively. Have I not put queries to you about Bindi ShivBap & ShivBaba in the very first article of this thread? If for you, these words are very significant, then why did you ignore the discussion about these words?
rather than wast time on trivial matters on how and why i address somebody on the internet.
Then why are you wasting your precious time on the issue why Baba addresses as 'Brother-Sister' instead of 'Bachchaa-Bachchee' to souls?
Dear arjun Bhai. It is a pity to note that a soul of your calibre, has made an issue of a non-issue (a insignificant matter of how and why of addressing souls).
Arjun Bhai is doing his job perfectly. Let him decide what is significant & what is insignificant, what to chose & what to ignore.
You could have easily ignored it and left it to souls like new knowledge, who keeps on drifting from party to party and is still not sure where he belongs.
Before one year, I joined this forum with nickname 'new_world' with 'not sure, stage; but that 'not sure' stage was childish immature unexperienced stage. But though I've again returned to the same 'not sure' stage; this 'not sure' stage is a grown up, matured experienced stage. And ... ,and how could you be in '100% sure' stage before the emergence of the '100% incorporeal stage' (expected by you) of the Father?
if you are not aware then there exist a point in Murlis that "tum bacchon ki Bhai-Bhai ki drishti honi chahiye, Bhai-Behan ki bhi nahin".
This Murli point do not definately indicate that orally or on paper we should address everybody as 'Brother'. To address everybody as 'Brother' with the subtle sense of soul-consciousness & to address him/her orally/on paper as 'Brother/Sister' are totally different facts & this issue is not so insignificant that it should be ignored.
Also i do not know who is who on this forum, as everyone is incognito and so keeping this in mind i address everyone as Brothers.
In a public show, is not the audience generally incognito to the announcer? Then would the female members of the audience prefer if the announcer starts his speach with the words 'Dear Brothers'?
Is that a crime that needs investigation and dissection??
Do you mean that only criminal affairs are subject to investigation & dissection??

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Re: PBK shivsena

Post by andrey » 16 Apr 2008

Dear brother shivsena,

In the Murli it is said that we cannot obtain anything without Brahma. If we please Brahma we please ShivBaba. It is said we attain everything through Brahma. He becomes a media. Jagadamba comes in between to distribute the inheritacne from the Father. How do you think will your hatred towards the soul of Krishna result?

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Re: Significant & insignificant issues

Post by shivsena » 17 Apr 2008

new knowledge wrote: Do you mean that only criminal affairs are subject to investigation & dissection??
Dear brother,
If any time in future i need to split hair and do a postmortem on insignificant words, then i will come to you and learn that art; you seem to be an expert in making a mountain out of a molehill. It is said in Vanis that ''Raee ka pahad mat banao, pahad ko raee banao''; you have just done the reverse.
OK all the best.
shivsena.

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Re: PBK shivsena

Post by andrey » 17 Apr 2008

Dear brother shivsena,

You often say that truth will be revealed with tima nd at the end we wold know who is right and wrong, but it is also said that we should not make time our teacher. time is creation. It is nonliving. We are the ones to bring the time. So maybe we could be able to bring the time that now it is clear what is right and wrong. Where is the need of delay that you bring in.

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Re: PBK tone and image

Post by pilatus » 17 Apr 2008

Dear PBK's,

Sorry for butting into your forum as an ex/non-BK but I'd just like to gently challenge you regarding the tone (and perhaps substance) of some of your debates.

Everything I know about the PBK's has come from this forum and I know that other ex/non-BK's generally have respect and regard for you. However, just occasionally you seem to veer into the kind of language which is often used on the Splinter Groups area and occasionally in other areas of the forum (Commonroom, ex-BK etc). I'd just like to urge you to stop for a minute and consider before posting some of your thoughts and feelings because, at least for me, it sometimes undermines (probably unfairly) my view and understanding of the PBK's.

I appreciate that tone is hard to get right, especially if you're writing in your second language or, like many of the western-bodied folk using our first language, but also to be read by non-native English speakers. Both cases can inadvertently lead to misunderstandings or even offence being taken where none was meant.

Personally-speaking, I have a lot of time for Arjun who provides a lot of useful input and effort into the forum, so would think very hard before ever criticising him in front of our PBK/ex/non-BK peers...

Lots of best wishes to you all,

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Re: PBK shivsena

Post by arjun » 17 Apr 2008

pilatus wrote:I'd just like to urge you to stop for a minute and consider before posting some of your thoughts and feelings because, at least for me, it sometimes undermines (probably unfairly) my view and understanding of the PBKs.
I agree with you completely and sincerely wish to lend my finger in making this corner of the forum more welcome to the non-PBKs.
Personally-speaking, I have a lot of time for Arjun who provides a lot of useful input and effort into the forum, so would think very hard before ever criticising him in front of our PBK/ex/non-BK peers ...
I have also crossed the line sometimes. So, you or any other member is welcome to criticise me whenever I err.

Thanks for your views and suggestions.

With regards,
On Godly Service,
Arjun

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Re: PBK shivsena

Post by new knowledge » 18 Apr 2008

shivsena wrote:you seem to be an expert in making a mountain out of a molehill.
Brother, it's not that I am making a mountain out of a molehill; but let me give due importance to each & every aspect of Godly knowledge though it may appear negligible. Does not the issue of why you address everybody as 'Brother' reflect the essence of your thinking & philosophy? Even then, if you think that this discussion is not related to the Godly knowledge & worthy to be ignored, then let us avoid it & start discussion about the words 'Ram' & 'Shiv', which are most relevant to you.

* What is difference between the Confluence Aged Ram & the Silver Aged Ram? What are those similar qualifications of both these personalities with respect to which both these Rams are worthy to be entitled as 'Ram'?

* According to you, we shall attain our incorporeal stage by remembering 100% incorporeal stage of Ram. But it's not clear from any of your posts, how soul of Ram attains His 100% incorporeal stage?
What is the role of Bindi Shiv in the process of attaining Rambap's 100% incorporeal stage? Does Ram remembers Bindi Shiv? But you strictly oppose to remember Bindi Shiv, then how Ram could remember Him? Now if the soul of Ram neither remembers Bindi Shiv nor His own 100% incorporeal stage is in emerged stage before Him (so that He could follow it), how will He attain His own 100% incorporeal stage? A significant query for your churning of knowledge.

* Possibly, acccording to you, Shivling is the remembrance of 100% incorporeal stage of Rambap; then who is this Ram who is worshiped & remembered in the form of idols of deity Ram?

* If Bindi Shiv is not omniscient & the ocean of knowledge, then how He observes each & every event of the Eternal World Drama & collects all these observed facts, analyses & interpretes them & arranges them in very copplicated codified format in the form of Murlis????? ... None of your 500 posts in this forum throw any light on this issue.

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Re: PBK shivsena

Post by shivsena » 18 Apr 2008

andrey wrote:In the Murli it is said that we cannot obtain anything without Brahma. If we please Brahma we please ShivBaba. It is said we attain everything through Brahma. He becomes a media. Jagadamba comes in between to distribute the inheritacne from the Father. How do you think will your hatred towards the soul of Krishna result?
Dear andrey Bhai.

You have raised a very logical and valid query, that we all have to get varsa from ShivBaba through brahma(Krishna), then why am i defaming Krishna and why so much hatred towards Krishna(brahma).

I do not have any hatred towards anybody whatsoever; i am not a fool to hate Krishna(brahma) and forego my inheritance that i receive from brahma(Krishna) in the end; it is only the negative mayavi part of brahma which i am highlighting during the period of brahma ki raat, as it has been said in Murlis that ''brahma ki raat mein brahma aur brahmin dono andhere mein hain''. So by churning the Murlis and Vanis i have come to the conclusion that brahma has been given this mayavi part in brahma ki raat, to test the PBKs to divide them into 108 and 16000.

I see the whole situation in the PBKs family just as in lokik family. The lokik Father and mother have 1000 children and they want to distribute the property to all of them ; will they distribute equally or will they distribute according to the intellectual capacity of each soul???? ; so the mother and Father set an exam to assess the intellect of each child and whosoever passes the exam in whatever grade, will get the inheritance numberwise.

Similarly i feel that this whole Sangamyugi drama of BKs and PBKs is an intellectual exam set by Ramshivbaba(karankaravanhar bap) and mother Krishna(brahma) to see who recognises the rachieta(Ramshivbaba) and rachna(Krishna) in the end and in this process brahma(Krishna) himself is the exam paper in which he plays the practical role of Maya to mis-lead the BKs and PBKs to seperate the family into 3 groups; and there are enough hints in Murlis and Vanis which point towards this mayavi part, only you have to have a deep study of Murlis and Vanis and churn them and seperate out the points under various headings like Ram, Bharat, Maya-Ravan, brahma, bharatwasis, etc. and things will start becoming clear.

This is the most amazing and interesting part of drama, that on one hand brahma(Krishna) himself is playing the role of Maya in the pbk family and then as mother he goes to mt abu and gives subtle hints about the same part and whosoever understands this raaj only will become mayajeet and jagatjeet; It has been said in Vani 7-1-78, "Maya ko challenge karo ki aao aur bidayee lo, Maya se kabhi ghabrana nahin, ghabraenge nahin toh Maya namaskar karegi, hai kuch bhi nahin, kagaz ka sher hai, kagaz ke sher se ghabrane wale ho kya??" ("challenge Maya to come and take leave; do not be afraid of Maya, if you are not afraid of Maya then Maya will bow down before you, in reality it is nothing, just a paper tiger, are you afraid of paper tiger'') Who is this Maya we have to challenge and not get scared of ?? is it the 5 vices or the personified form of 5 vices!! i think this paper tiger is nothing but the mayavi roop of brahma whom we PBKs have to recognise and challenge and whosoever has the power to identify this paper tiger and has the guts to challenge this part of brahma, will find a place in 108.

Also the biggest proof that this whole Sangamyugi drama is a intellectual game is very evident from what brahma says in the same Vani 7-1-78, " Iss buddhi ke khel mein jo koto mein koi pass hue hain, aise bacchon ko dekh BapDada bhi harshit hote hain". (meaning that "BapDada is also happy to see those children, one in a crore, who pass in this intellectual game"); this Vani point proves beyond a doubt that this whole game is designed by drama and orchested by BapDada(both Ram and Krishna ie Father and mother ie creator and creation) and only those who pass this game will come in 108.

Many times it is said that ''Delhi ka gherao karo; Delhi ke upar sabko chadayee karni hai'' , meaning that you have to win over chaitanya Delhi(brahma who is bap ka dil) to get to the Father Ramshivbaba; PBKs think that by being nearer to Father Ram physically they are doing good service but it is said in Murlis that ''bap ke andar ke pyar aur bahar ke pyar mein badi bhari yukti hai" (meaning that '' there is great secret between who the Father really loves, one who is doing physical service or one who recognises his practical form); i think that Ramshivbaba will be happy only with those children who recognise Him and his creation brahma(Krishna); PBKs think that they will get the inheritance from bindishivbaba through prajapita brahma(Ram), but i think we will get varsa only from Ramshivbaba through prajapita brahma(Krishna); this is the major difference in my thinking and what the PBKs think.

It is said in Hindu scriptures that Maya is adi-shakti; I feel that this adi-shakti is no one but brahma(jagdamba) in the picture of ardh-nari-ishwar; when this adi-shakti is not under the control of Ishwar Ramshivbaba then it becomes Maya-shakti and spreads ignorance in the night of brahma, and when it is undercontrol of Ram Ishwar then it becomes brahma-jagdamba, the first shakti(wife-banni) of God Ramshivbaba.

I can never hate anybody; ever since childhood i have been taught in bible classes in school that "hate the sin and not the sinner" and i have remembered this throughout my life and now i understand the true meaning of these words when i apply this saying in this Sangamyugi game, in which Krishna is destined to play the part of no 1 patit kami kanta(sinner) ; in Murlis it is said that ''bap se vimukh karna hai sabse bada pap"(to lead the child away from the Father is the biggest sin); and Krishna is playing that part perfectly as ordained by drama; only we have to recognise it by deep study of Murlis and Vanis.

Whatever points on Maya that i have posted on the forum, if they are read again and again with this thought in mind that Maya is not the 5 vices that Shiva is describing in Murlis and brahma is hinting in the Vanis, but it is the personified 5 vices which we have to identify and challenge, then all the mysteries in this wonderful knowledge will be solved. Without knowing the practical form of Maya and overcoming it, one cannot meet God Ramshivbaba in the practical form; this is what i strongly believe.

KNOW Maya TO KNOW MAYAPATI BHAGWAN. NO Maya, NO BHAGWAN.

shivsena.

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Re: PBK shivsena

Post by shivsena » 18 Apr 2008

new knowledge wrote: * If Bindi Shiv is not omniscient & the ocean of knowledge, then how He observes each & every event of the Eternal World Drama & collects all these observed facts, analyses & interpretes them & arranges them in very copplicated codified format in the form of Murlis????? ... None of your 500 posts in this forum throw any light on this issue.[/color]
Dear new knowledge Bhai.

I am also searching for answers to the same queries that if bindishiv is ocean of knowledge, then why did he not give the knowledge right from day one in 1937, when he first descended from Paramdham, as it is said in Murlis that ''Bap toh aate hi Gyan sunana shuru kar dete hain''; secondly what happened for first 10 years in om mandli; what Gyan did shiv give in those 10 years and why there was only chanting of 'om dhwani' as in Bhakti marg; did shiv come and establish Gyan marg or Bhakti marg in 1937; then from 1947 there was direct Murli from the mouth of Lekhraj Kirpalani and again we do not know what he spoke from 1947 to 1965 and then after 1965, shiv starts speaking the Murlis in code form that no one has been able to understand fully till today. All these queries still remain unanswered.

shivsena.

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Re: PBK shivsena

Post by andrey » 19 Apr 2008

Dear brother shivsena,

Yes, hatred is bit extreme. It remains a mistery to me how do you discriminate valid or unvalid queries. In my opinion you only pick those with which you could narrate your story. To any query all the same points come. It reminds me of the empty bottle that sounds a lot.

You are now dоing your one’s own service, saying you give the true introduction, but it seems you are just trying to popularize your ideas. Whilst you have taken the right tone, you say any things which are not so. For eg. PBKs think that being physically close to Baba is big service. I think your concern to spread the knowedge is very good but only you should change the tune. If you spread the right knowledge it would be better.

You have mentioned elsewhere about your meeting with Baba (in Virendra Dev Dixit) after jail, where you again try to prove yourself the sincere person in front of the false one. Since it is personal, please remark if you don’t accept the comment.

You have asked whose karma has it been. The question itself is wrong as to whose karma it is. Whose can it be? You could answer yourself. It is not a question, but an expression of lost faith. Can it be Kishna’s karma who has a subtle body and does not have a physical body. Or can it be the soul of Shiv who is always karmateet. So who remains. If you can loose faith in such small occurancess, then in future it is expected more to come. You say would God go to jail, but world is like this today. They would not only like to put him in jail or make him shut up, but someone may like to see him dead as with the case with Brahma Baba that we have been told in the BK, if the story is true. I think there is nothing wrong to lose faith. One can gain again. To turn your falure into victory, the defect into effect, is also very special quality, but to spread different knowledge will only result in conflict.

And the riddle that to change a crucifix into a thorn is not a riddle, but a saying from the Murlis or Avyakt Vanis where it is said we should change the crucifix into a thorn, that means we should change the suffering and not experience.

Even in the bakti Gita it is written that we can only get to know God when he introduces himself, then how come you can give his introduction. You have though that the benefit comes through you, but we know God is not omnipresent.

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Re: PBK shivsena

Post by bansy » 19 Apr 2008

I see the whole situation in the PBKs family just as in lokik family. The lokik Father and mother have 1000 children and they want to distribute the property to all of them ; will they distribute equally or will they distribute according to the intellectual capacity of each soul???? ; so the mother and Father set an exam to assess the intellect of each child and whosoever passes the exam in whatever grade, will get the inheritance numberwise.
God distributes the inheritance equally to all His children. But it is up to the children numberwise to use that inheritance in the best way as according to his/her mind intellect and sanskars. If a Father does not make things equal to all his children, then his children will fight because he has not given the respect equally to all of them. And hence God tells us to respect each other equally otherwise he cannot give out the inheritance until the situation arises. And then there is no discrimination about who gets this or that because it is no longer needed. The sun shines on all parts of the earth equally, whether you are a rock or you are a plant or you are a human being. Each item will receive and use that sunlight according to its own mind intellect and soul, but the sun just simply keeps shining equally to all four corners of the world. If you remember the Father well, then you will be able to use your inheritance well, and so it would seem you have received more inheritance from the Father than that of another soul as you will be using your inheritance more effectively and efficiently, but actually another's entitlement is not of your concern. It is not what you receive, it is how you use it.

This is how I understand the meaning of numberwise.

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