Dada Lekhraj Brahma: Karmatit or not in 1969!!

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Roy
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Re: Dada Lekhraj Brahma: Karmatit or not in 1969!!

Post by Roy » 30 Apr 2011

Sach_Khand wrote:But you seem to have gathered lots of Murli points and even studied them. May I know were you a BK before getting AIVV knowledge? If yes, for how many years? This is your personal information and it is your right to give it here or not to give.
Hi Sanjeev Bhai

Yes, i am/was a BK... well sort of! :D I came into Gyan(BK world) in 1985, and was fortunate enough to have the most wonderful teacher. I don't think any other soul could have brought me into Gyan, because i was so caught up in bodyconsciousness; i needed someone who not only talked the talk, but someone who also walked the walk. I have to say, he was my guru for a long time, and even now, i have some residual sanskars/karmas to deal with in this area. We are still in contact via email, and i would see him from time to time, but i suffer from a chronic fatigue condition, that makes it very difficult for me to do much, if any, socialising. Around 1990, my karmas came crashing around my ears, when i had a confluence of physical, mental and spiritual problems, that brought me to my knees. As i started to come through all of this, and thought i was finding my feet, my health took a huge nose dive, such that i haven't been able to work since 1993/4, and i have become a bit of a hermit during this time. I still have one or two contacts in the family, but i haven't attended class for over 20 years. So in this time, all that sustained me, was the knowledge and experience i had garnered, between 1985 and 1990. My condition was so bad, that i could neither churn or remain soul conscious for any length of time, as the effort was exhausting(if not impossible for most of the time), and caused very bad headaches; so i had to keep it very light. Although my efforts were very slight, i always felt ShivBaba's presence was there, and this kept me sane during this time. In 2009, and being a little stronger; i came across AK on the internet, and was very quickly intoxicated by what it was saying; i then found this forum soon afterwards. Unfortunately, my teacher who i mentioned earlier; advised me to go on this powerful detox programme, that he himself was using. Being keen to try anything, i did; but with disastrous results. It totally knocked me for six, and not only badly affected me physically, but somehow took away all my desire to make spiritual efforts, and i languished badly for 18 months, descending into quite a bad place; such that it took my lokik Father's comments, to put me back on track. Soon after this though, i re-engaged with AK, and have been enjoying studying it once more, since November last year(2010). So as i have mentioned before, it has been a funny old journey; but I am really glad to be here, sharing knowledge with you all, on this great forum.

Hope this wasn't too much information. :D

Roy

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Re: Dada Lekhraj Brahma: Karmatit or not in 1969!!

Post by pbkindiana » 01 May 2011

Roy wrote:
Just a general question here. When are we truly considered deities? Is it as soon as we become karmateet;
When we have attained perfection or karmateet, then we become Confluence Age deities, that will be in Golden Age of Confluence Age. Deities mean constant soul-conscious stage.
or, is it when the tamopradhan body has been completely transformed, so that soul and body are satopradhan?
The tamopradhan body will get rejuvenated only in the pure world, where deities give birth to deity children.

indie.

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Re: Dada Lekhraj Brahma: Karmatit or not in 1969!!

Post by Roy » 01 May 2011

Thank you Indie Bhai!

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Re: Dada Lekhraj Brahma: Karmatit or not in 1969!!

Post by shivsena » 11 Jul 2011

Dear brothers.

Attaching some pictures of Bhakti-marg Trimurti where Brahma is always shown as a female.

Murlis say "Brahma-Vishnu-Shankar hain sukhma-vatan-wasi."("Brahma-Vishnu-Shankar are dwellers of Subtle Regions '')... all pictures of Bhakti-marg below show the Subtle Region Brahma as a female....so does it not mean that the subtle Brahma is Mama(jagdamba) and not a male (with beard and moustache.)...there are hardly any pictures of male Brahma with Vishnu and Shankar in Bhakti-marg.

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Re: Dada Lekhraj Brahma: Karmatit or not in 1969!!

Post by sita » 11 Jul 2011

As you know, pictures represent the character, the inside form of the soul, and the role of the soul, and not the outside form of the body. In the Murli it is said that this Brahma is your Jagadamba, but the body is male. But in the PBK, as you know, Brahma is also in a female form.

But if the subtle body also has a gender, then it is also subtle body-consisousness. It is said that we have to go above the consiousness of male-female and look one another as soul-brothers. But the subtle angels and deities is one and the same, but the corporeal deities, although having male or female bodies, have similarities in their features, because they are in soul-consious form.

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Re: Dada Lekhraj Brahma: Karmatit or not in 1969!!

Post by shivsena » 11 Jul 2011

sita wrote: As you know, pictures represent the character, the inside form of the soul, and the role of the soul, and not the outside form of the body. In the Murli it is said that this Brahma is your Jagadamba, but the body is male. But in the PBK, as you know, Brahma is also in a female form.

But if the subtle body also has a gender, then it is also subtle body-consisousness. It is said that we have to go above the consiousness of male-female and look one another as soul-Brothers. But the subtle angels and deities is one and the same, but the corporeal deities, although having male or female bodies, have similarities in their features, because they are in soul-consious form.
Dear sita.

I have been observing and reading your posts again and again and it reminds me of someone who butts in between and speaks irrelevantly...i have read your above post and it has many contradictions and not a single Murli point to support your views.

shivsena.

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Re: Dada Lekhraj Brahma: Karmatit or not in 1969!!

Post by sita » 11 Jul 2011

Why in between? You have adressed your post - dear brothers. Being a brother i have replied. There is no requirenment that in every post one quotes Murli points, but i have quoted a Murli point
In the Murli it is said that this Brahma is your Jagadamba, but the body is male.
and the post was about Brahma being a female with respect to your view of Mama as Brahma, or am i wrong, so i have adressed this and the pictures that has been posted. I have adressed also the points regarding the farista and dieties, subtle and corporeal beings matter that has been discussed many times in other topics also, but if you feel they don't suit well here, i can post them elsewhere.

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Re: Dada Lekhraj Brahma: Karmatit or not in 1969!!

Post by shivsena » 11 Jul 2011

sita wrote:
In the Murli it is said that this Brahma is your Jagadamba, but the body is male.
Can you please quote the date of this point and reproduce exactly as it is....i have been searching for this point for many years, as it proves my theory that the real Brahma is jagdamba Saraswati and not Dada Lekhraj.

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Re: Dada Lekhraj Brahma: Karmatit or not in 1969!!

Post by sita » 11 Jul 2011

I don't have it, but i believe Roy Bhai posted this point just recently with date.

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Re: Dada Lekhraj Brahma: Karmatit or not in 1969!!

Post by Roy » 11 Jul 2011

shivsena wrote:Can you please quote the date of this point and reproduce exactly as it is....i have been searching for this point for many years, as it proves my theory that the real Brahma is jagdamba Saraswati and not Dada Lekhraj.
Dear Shivsena Bhai

Here is the point in its proper context. I've taken the liberty of adding a few comments in brackets.

“Human beings think that the Supreme Soul is Almighty, thought-reader. He knows all that goes on within everybody’s mind. Father says, it is not so. When you become completely degraded(when and whom is is he referring to here - 1969 - Baba Dixit?) – then I have to come at the accurate time. I come in an ordinary body only(was Brahma Baba's body ordinary?). I come and liberate you children from sorrows. Establishment of one religion through Brahma(the mother - but was establishment completely achieved through Brahma Baba?), destruction of many religions through Shankar(the Father) ... there will be acclamations of victory (jayjaykaar) after the cries of despair (haahaakaar). People say, ‘O purifier of the sinful ones (patit-paavan) we are sinful, come to purify us.’ Look how is the invitation. They call me in a completely degraded sinful world and then in a sinful body. Indians give such a good invitation!... Brahma only has to become vanni (wife). Baba himself says - He is my vanni. I enter into him and make you my children through him. He is the true elder mother and she happens to be an adopted mother. You can call them as mother and Father(who is ShivBaba referring to here - Brahma and Mama, or Brahma and Shankar?). ShivBaba is called only a Father. This is Brahma Baba. Mama is incognito(who is this incognito Mama?). Brahma is mother, but the body is male. He will not be able to take care. That is why daughter (bachhi) has been adopted. She has been named Mateshwari. She is the head. As per drama there is only one Saraswati(is ShivBaba referring to someone other, than the adopted daughter mentioned above?). As for the rest there are many names like Durga, Kali, etc.(is Kali the true Jagadamba - and if so, who plays this role in the practical, at the end?). Parents are one only(shouldn't they both be in bodies, until the end?). All of you are the children. It is also famous that Saraswati is the daughter of Brahma(is Brahma Baba(DL) being referred to here?). You are Brahmakumar-Kumaris, isn’t it? You are given many names. Even among you all these matters will be understood numberwise.” [Mu 11.11.05]

This revised Murli point does not actually state that Brahma is Jagadamba; but this may be because, it was edited out!

"Children heard the praise of Jagadamba. People simply sing this and there are melas to Jagadamba. This is the Confluence Age; this is the meeting of the children and the Father. Since there is the Father, there is surely also the mother. No one in Bharat knows the life story of Jagadamba, the one who creates the world, that is, the World Mother (Jagadamba). There are also temples to Jagadamba. You children have now received understanding; you have received the third eye of knowledge. You children know that the one whose memorial is built would definitely have come on this earth(play a role in a physical body) at the Confluence Age. That one is called Jagadamba. Prajapita is Jagadpita (World Father). [Mu 05.09.08]

If i may just point out; the bold sentence in the point immediately above.... doesn't it prove, that Shankar(who has many memorials), must be a bodily being(not simply subtle), just like Jagadamba? Also; if Brahma Baba(DL)is the true Jagadamba(even if he has to play this role via another bodily being at the end)... doesn't it also prove, that he is not Prajapita?

"Jagadamba cannot be called a deity. When Jagadamba becomes complete she will then become a deity." [Mu 05.09.05]

"Not that Mama and Baba have become complete. The complete stage will be achieved only in the end. Presently nobody can call himself complete". [Mu 14.11.78]

"Mama-Baba will also go, many other children will also go in advance... it is not that Mama-Baba had attained complete stage. Complete stage will be attained at the end." [10.11.88]


I feel these points prove that Mama is not Jagadamba; as you need to be complete and in your own physical costume at the end, in order to have memorials built in your name. The part or role of Shankar, is played via Baba Dixit's body, by Father Shiv... but because he(Virendra Dev Dixit) becomes complete; memorials are bulit for him(Shankar) in remembrance of his(Virendra Dev Dixit's) achievement of becoming bapsaman. The same goes for Jagadamba. The soul who's costume is being used by Brahma Baba, to play this role at the end(not Mama's of course), must have become complete herself; in order for memorials to be built in Jagadamba's honour.

"When there are two unlimited fathers, then there should be two mothers also surely. One is Jagdamba (world mother), secondly this Brahma is also a mother." [MU 3.2.78]

"This is Sun of Knowledge. This secret Mama is different. This secret is hardly understood or explained by anyone. The name of that Mama is different. Temples are built for her. Is there any temple for this secret old Mother (Brahma)?" [Mu. 17-11-77]

Sorry if I am not exactly holding to a tight theme here, but this is quite a complex subject imo; and the following point throws further doubts on Shivsena Bhai's beliefs!

"Although Saraswati is there, but actual mother is Brahmaputri (literally meaning daughter of Brahma, and played by Sister Vedanti according to AK). Brahmaputri is elder to everyone, even Saraswati(Mama). So who will be called Brahmaputri? A name has been given (to a river as) Brahmaputri. [Mu 2.1.75]

I believe according to AK, that the soul whose body is used to play Jagadamba at the end, is also called Ganga; and that when Ganga and Brahmaputri(Sister Vedanti and Jagadamba) meet(their sanskars become harmonised), they flow into the ocean, and the holy war begins(2018).

Roy

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Re: Dada Lekhraj Brahma: Karmatit or not in 1969!!

Post by Roy » 12 Jul 2011

shivsena wrote:Attaching some pictures of Bhakti-marg Trimurti where Brahma is always shown as a female. Murlis say "Brahma-Vishnu-Shankar hain sukhma-vatan-wasi."("Brahma-Vishnu-Shankar are dwellers of Subtle Regions '')... all pictures of Bhakti-marg below show the Subtle Region Brahma as a female....so does it not mean that the subtle Brahma is Mama(jagdamba) and not a male (with beard and moustache.)...there are hardly any pictures of male Brahma with Vishnu and Shankar in Bhakti-marg.
Dear Shivsena Bhai

It is my belief that the true Jagadamba, is Brahma Baba(DL); as depicted in the Confluenced Aged Trimurti picture, which was created as per ShivBaba's instructions. An incomplete Brahma with moustache is depicted, to represent, that although Brahma Baba is the main heroine( big/elder mother) actor of the Confluence Age; he wasn't able to complete this role in his own costume, by becoming karmateet. The role is completed through the costume(body) of the re-born Gita-Mata(Adi Brahma), who is memorialised as Jagadamba in Bhakti-marg; due to her becoming complete(karmateet) whilst playing the role at the end(2018). This is why in Bhakti-marg, Brahma is depicted as female... because both in the beginning and the end of the Yagya; Gita-Mata, is playing the role of Brahma/Jagadamba in the practical bodily sense; and thus Brahma/Jagadamba, is memorialised in a female form in the Trimurti.

Roy

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Re: Dada Lekhraj Brahma: Karmatit or not in 1969!!

Post by sita » 12 Jul 2011

I believe according to AK, that the soul whose body is used to play Jagadamba at the end, is also called Ganga;
I believe Ganga is separate and Jagadamba is separate. Gaga is the one sho comes first amongst all and also comes at the end, but it plays a role like a sanyasi, thats why sanyasis worship Ganga, whilst Jagadamba is from the family path. But someone who is more informed can confirm.

Brahma may be depicted like a female in the Bhakti marg pictures also, however he is mostly depicted like a male.

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Re: Dada Lekhraj Brahma: Karmatit or not in 1969!!

Post by shivsena » 12 Jul 2011

Dear roy Bhai.

I wish you had stated the exact point(with date) about "Brahma being jagdamba" beacuse it is very important that exact point is quoted.....every point can be interpreted differently according to the intellect of each soul but i do not wish to debate on it....i just wish that if any one has the exact point about ''Brahma being jagdamba'' then let him quote it.

Morevover if PBKs believe that DL Brahma is actual jagdamba, then they have to clarify who is mateshwari jagdamba and who is kamla devi jagdamba and why are these two souls titled as jagdamba by BKs and PBKs respectively and what roles they play.

shivsena.

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Re: Dada Lekhraj Brahma: Karmatit or not in 1969!!

Post by Roy » 12 Jul 2011

shivsena wrote:I wish you had stated the exact point(with date) about "Brahma being jagdamba" beacuse it is very important that exact point is quoted.....every point can be interpreted differently according to the intellect of each soul but i do not wish to debate on it....i just wish that if any one has the exact point about ''Brahma being jagdamba'' then let him quote it.
Dear Shivsena Bhai

I don't think i have ever quoted a point where it states that Brahma is Jagadamba; but this is stated in AK as you are most likely aware. I think that Sita Bhen, may have subconsciously amalgamated the point that Brahma is mother, with the teachings of AK, that Brahma is Jagadamba... or she may have actually seen the point elsewhere, and thought that it was i, who had quoted it on the forum. It may be, that the point about Brahma being Jagadamba, may only be implied in the Sakar Murli, rather than having ever been explicitly stated. I look forward to being corrected on this matter.
shivsena wrote:Morevover if PBKs believe that DL Brahma is actual jagdamba, then they have to clarify who is mateshwari jagdamba and who is kamla devi jagdamba and why are these two souls titled as jagdamba by BKs and PBKs respectively and what roles they play.
I am only a novice when it comes to this subject as you may have noticed; but i believe mateshwari jagadamba is Mama(Om Radhe), given this title as adopted daughter, to do the job that the male bodied soul Brahma Baba(elder or senior mother - jagadamba), was not suited for. If Kamla devi jagadamba, refers to the soul who is currently outside the Yagya physically at this point(she left when Baba Dixit was sent to prison), and that there is much speculation about her return to the Yagya at some point... then she in my opinion, is the Jagadamba who is memorialised in Bhakti marg; the soul who in amalgamation with Sister Vedanti(Confluenced Aged Lakshmi) at the end, becomes Mahalakshmi, who destroy the demons(knowlegeable male bodied souls, who think themselves better than God Himself, who have been holding the mothers in bondage), when she(kamla devi jagadamba) adopts the form of Mahakali. This will only happen when she fully realises the part she is meant to play, and has complete faith in this. She has to lead the mothers in realising their part, of being responsible for opening the gates of Heaven, by fulfilling their potential in knowledge, and finally throwing off the shackles, that they have allowed male bodied souls, to place on them; through fear and lack of self respect.

Roy

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Re: Dada Lekhraj Brahma: Karmatit or not in 1969!!

Post by sita » 12 Jul 2011

I have not came to the exact quote that Brahma is Jagadamba. In the AK it is believed that Brahma Baba is a titleholder Jagadamba and that the one for whom it is said in the Murlis that they have given directions to even Mama and Baba, the ones from the beginning of the Yagya, Jagadamba is one of them.

Jagadamba means Mother of the World. Mother means elder than the children. Brahma Baba is said to be mother, due to his tolerating, accomodating and sweet and loving manner. If someone can mach him in these respects he can claim the title. It is also said in the Murlis or AV that every mother should consider herself Mother of the World. Dadi Prakashmani has also been popularised as Dadi Ma. There are many mothers and each mother is mother to some world. One can be mother of one child, other of more, but to the whole world there can be only one mother.

Om Radhe can be said that she has played the role of a mother to the BK world, but she has not been mother to even Brahma Baba. It is said that Om radhe is daughter of Brahma. Brahma itself is interprated as big mother in the AK and it matches the pictures of Brahma in female form. Om radhe has considered Brahma Baba as elder to her. It is said that there are two mothers Brahma and Jagadamba (Om Rahde). Brahma Baba has also adressed Om radhe as daughter. So if both are mothers and one calls the other as daughter and the other one accepts the first one as superior in all respects of Gyan, Yaad, dharna and seva, who is elder between the two? But if there has been perosnalities for which it is mentioned in the Murli who has been elder to Brahma Baba also, they will be even more Jagadamba than him, is not it?

There are many who claim the title of Jagadamba in the outside world also. What will be the proof of this title? That like the mother earth she will be giving shelter to any soul. It can be only seen in practical. Intellectual speculations can prove anything, but if the practical life shows that Om radhe has considered at least two mothers as elder to her - one in male form - Brahma Baba, because of his role, and one from the beginning of the Yagya, then we can wait to see who will play the role of a mother whom the whole world will accept as its mother. There are many big and small worlds in the world, with many big and small mothers to these worlds. The mother of these mothers will be world mother. In the same way there are many fathers in the world, but the Father of these fathers will be the Father of the world. We need not wait that every single soul accepts these, but if the soul whom the other souls accept, he himself accepts, other souls are proved to accept automatically.

It is said that this Brahma - Saraswati are not Mama - Baba. Brahma Baba is not a Father, because the role is not of a Father. He is either like mother or like a brother, Dada. So to this elder brother, there is some Father, who has to be in corporeal form, whom Brahma Baba must have accepted as elder to him in respect of knowledge. We cannot seek a mother without a Father, because the Father makes her a mother. Brahma Baba has made Om radhe like a mother to the BKs, but not like a husband, but like a Father, because he is in male form and she is his daugher, or like a mother, due to his role. The BKs accept Brahma - Saraswati as mother and Father. So if we find the world Father first, the world mother will be somewhere around.

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