Why does God Shiva need a human Chariot to liberate souls !!

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Why does God Shiva need a human Chariot to liberate souls !!

Post by shivsena » 11 Dec 2009

Topic: Why does omnipotent God Shiva need a human Chariot of flesh and blood to reveal himself to the world and to liberate souls from bondage of body ????

To all BK and PBK brothers.

In this thread i wish to share some of the queries about the Human Chariot of God Shiva, which should arise in any logical mind.

1. Who is Bhagya-shali rath(fortunate Chariot) ???
According to BKs, the fortunate Chariot is Lekhraj Kirpalani(Krishna' soul) in whom Shiva incarnated in 1937 at the end of 84 births.
According to PBKs, the fortunate Chariot is Virendra Dev Dixit(Ram's soul) in whom Shiva incarnated in 1969, after temporary Chariot Lekhraj Kirpalani left his body.

Let us analyse very carefully whether there is any solid concrete proof of both the above beliefs in Murlis and Vanis.

First let us analyse whether Lekhraj Kirpalani(Krishna) fits into the description of the Chariot as per Murli points.
Murlis say : "main Krishna ke 84 janam ke anth ke bhi anth mein aataa hun"( ''I come at the end of the end of 84th birth of Krishna'' ). But Lekhraj Kirpalani in 1937 was about 50-60 years old in his 84th birth and it can be called the middle of 84th birth but certainly not the "anth ka bhi anth"(if Murlis are to be interpreted accurately);
Murlis say: "Krishna ke pure 84 janam-5000 saal kahenge" ; the equation 84 births=5000 years does not seem to fit on Lekhraj Kirpalani .
Also Murlis say that "I come in Bharat once in 5000 years"; ...but Lekhraj Kirpalani(Krishna) is not known and accepted as chaitanya Bharat by any BK.
Also Murlis say: "I come in no. 1 impure and make him no. 1 pure"... but there is no proof that Lekhraj Kirpalani was no. 1 impure soul on this earth which makes him the Chariot of Shiva, and also Lekhraj Kirpalani never became no. 1 pure through the same body (ie. he was not the real shyam sunder Krishna)
Also Immortal Father Shiva(kaalon ka kaal--mahakaal) could not make the bhagyashali Chariot(Lekhraj Kirpalani) immortal, so the logical question arises whether immortal Father Shiva really incarnated in Lekhraj Kirpalani in 1937.
It would not be out of place to ask a open query to all BKs about the incarnation of Shiva in Lekhraj Kirpalani in 1937. Do all BKs firmly believe whether Shiva spoke those famous words through the mouth of Lekhraj Kirpalani in 1937 ie. "nijanand swaroopam shivoham shivoham, Gyan swaroopam shivoham shivoham, and prakash swaroopam shivoham shivoham"... if this is true then a logical query arises: Why did Shiva not start the Murlis immediately in 1937 through Lekhraj Kirpalani and why the supposed peeu ki Vani was narrated through some other body and why was narration of Murlis through Lekhraj Kirpalani delayed for 10 years till 1947 ????
Also if Lekhraj Kirpalani is the fortunate Chariot ie. prajapita Brahma then why were the gates of heaven not opened through the fortunate Chariot as it is said that "main Brahma dwara swarg ke gate kholte hun".
All the above points need to be addressed before we can convincingly say that Lekhraj Kirpalani(Krishna) was the fortunate Chariot of Shiva.

Let us now analyse whether Virendra Dev Dixit(Ram's soul) fits into the fortunate Chariot of Shiva in whom Shiva incarnated in 1969.

First of all, it has never been said in Murlis that Ram's soul takes full 84 births(it is always said that Krishna takes full 84 births).
Then it has never been said in Murlis that "i enter in Ram at the end of 84 births"
Again how PBKs have supposed(without any proof) that Ram in his 84th birth in 1969 was no. 1 patit kami kanta is just beyond any logical reasoning.
Also how Ram becomes Sangamyugi Krishna is yet another example of how beliefs are taken for granted in advance knowledge without asking for any proof from Murlis.
Last but not the least, there is no practical proof in last 40 years that any PBK who has recognised the fortunate Chariot and is living with the Chariot continously for many years gets the colour of Father(sang ka rang) and goes in chadti kalaa [ Murli says: "Bap aakar sang ka rang lagate hain aur 1 second mein udti kalaa mein le jaate hain."]
So looking from any angle, Virendra Dev Dixit neither appears to be Ram's soul(as PBKs believe) nor is there any proof that he is the fortunate Chariot of Shiva at present.

Two very important points to be churned regarding the fortunate Chariot:

1. In Murlis it is said that "ShivBaba and prajapita Brahma dono hai highest authority", ....but in Bhakti marg nirakar ShivBaba is worshipped as shivling but the fortunate Chariot(prajapita Brahma) not worshipped at all.....why???... there are only 1 or 2 temples of prajapita Brahma all over India as rememberence , but he is not worshipped in the real sense even though he plays a very important pivotal role in Sangamyug; Also jagdamba and siddhi-vinayak ganesh are worshipped with reverence and diligence all throughout India even though they were not the fortunate Chariot of Shiva in Sangamyug. This fact needs a very serious thought by all those BKs and PBKs who give more importance to the Chariot(prajapita Brahma) and not to jagdamba and vigna-vinashak ganesh.

Also Shiva is worshipped as shivling(combination of ling with jala-dhari) and the Chariot nandi bull is always kept seperately outside the temple; so the question arises why is Shiva not worshipped along with the Chariot, when in Sangamyug Shiva+Chariot are inseperable (according to PBKs) and BapDada(Shiva+Krishna) are also inseperable(according to BKs). Also who is this jala-dhari who is always in combination with shivling in all the 12 jyoti-shivlings worshipped in Bhakti-marg.

2. Why are the words "bhagyashali rath" never mentioned by Brahma(Krishna) who is supposed to be present in Virendra Dev Dixit (as per PBKs) in any of the avaykt Vanis for the last 40 years and why does Brahma not give even a single hint of the fortunate Chariot (Virendra Dev Dixit) playing the part in farukhabad ; the word 'farukhabad' is mentioned by Shiva in Murlis between 65-69 couple of times when the supposed Chariot was not on the scene, but when the Chariot comes on the scene, Brahma never mentions it even once in last 40 years, which makes a logical soul wonder whether Brahma(Krishna) is really present in Virendra Dev Dixit, or this is also one of the beliefs which is accepted without questioning.

Also all avaykt Vanis lay more stress on avaykt milan with BapDada in sukhma-vatan and the method of rememberence taught in advance knowedge ie. "Sakar mein nirakar ko Yaad karo " is never mentioned in any Vani; so the most important question arises : why is the human Chariot needed to have avaykt milan with BapDada ???????

To sum up the whole churning, i would just like to ask : Is the Chariot of flesh and blood really necessary to liberate souls from bodily bondage and to reveal God ShivBaba (who is light and might) or will the spiritual Father ShivBaba be revealed by the light and might bodies (angelic bodies or farishtas) of 108 king souls.
Views of my brothers are most welcome.
shivsena.
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Re: Why does God Shiva need a human Chariot to liberate souls.

Post by nivi » 12 Dec 2009

Thank you for bringing some valid points in reference to Murlis Shivsena Bhai ..I suppose we will have to do some churning on those above points.

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Re: Why does God Shiva need a human Chariot to liberate souls.

Post by shivsena » 14 Dec 2009

Dear nivi.

My only dillemma about the 2 chariots :
The first Chariot played the role for 32 years and then left his body in 1969 ; neither the Chariot nor the BKs attained any sadgati.

The supposed second Chariot is playing the role for last 40 years, and both the Chariot and PBKs are going in girti kalaa and there are no signs of any sadgati of any PBK.

So is there going to be another Chariot of Shiva through which souls will get mukti and jeevan-mukti in one second(as per Murlis)... or.... at the right time in future sadgati-dataa ShivBaba will incarnate in present Bharat(Krishna), when Bharat becomes 100% insolvent, brashta-chari, adharmi, etc at the end of Brahma ki raat. (as per Murlis: "i come in Bharat once in 5000 years).

Your views please.
shivsena.

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Re: Why does God Shiva need a human Chariot to liberate souls.

Post by RudraPutra » 15 Dec 2009

problem with your question is that you go on asking without answering it ....this is like throwing beans and not watering it and expecting to grow on it's own......see the whole thing depends on the conclusion and not on the mere so called observation.....you do state that BK's as well as PBK's philosophy are just bogus(from your point of view)....but you yourself are not ready to answer that who is the bhagyashali Chariot of Shiv.....just answer us with solid proof....then only this debate may move in healthy fruitful way or else just blah blah blah and nothing will come out...
now please answer us who is present fortunate Chariot of Shiv????????? according to you....
with micro details.....

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Re: Why does God Shiva need a human Chariot to liberate souls.

Post by sachkhand » 18 Dec 2009

RudraPutra wrote: you yourself are not ready to answer that who is the bhagyashali Chariot of Shiv.....just answer us with solid proof....then only this debate may move in healthy fruitful way or else just blah blah blah and nothing will come out...
now please answer us who is present fortunate Chariot of Shiv????????? according to you....
with micro details....
Has ever Shivsena claimed that he knows The GodFather Shiv?

Those who make claims need to answer and will have to face the questions that are raised. If it is said that whatever Shivsena has been saying is just blah blah blah, then what is going on since 1976 through Virendra Dev Dixit and his followers? Much bigger BLAH BLAH BLAH ????????????

No one here is forcing anyone to answer. If someone cannot answer to the questions and doubts raised then it is better to keep quiet rather than calling it as blah blah blah. Let the interested ones churn the knowledge in different perspectives.
:neutral:
Sanjeev.

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Re: Why does God Shiva need a human Chariot to liberate souls.

Post by RudraPutra » 19 Dec 2009

sachkhand wrote: Has ever Shivsena claimed that he knows The GodFather Shiv?
Those who make claims need to answer and will have to face the questions that are raised. If it is said that whatever Shivsena has been saying is just blah blah blah, then what is going on since 1976 through Veerendra Dev Dixit and his followers? Much bigger BLAH BLAH BLAH ????????????
No one here is forcing anyone to answer. If someone cannot answer to the questions and doubts raised then it is better to keep quiet rather than calling it as blah blah blah. Let the interested ones churn The Knowledge in different perspectives.
Dear sachkhand,
Thanks for your interference.....but let me make something clear....
First of all i am not forcing anyone to answer.....instead i am asking him to take the discussion in healthy way by answering our question's too.....secondly i am here to keep my views and to have reviews of others at the same time i do expect that my asked queris should get reply....before moving ahead with this thread i thought better to keep my expectation in front of SHIVSENA Bhai so that he could act in same way.....i never said that shivsena Bhai is doing just blah blah....but answering should be on both sides or else definitely the conversation would move to blah blah and nothing else....
....i don't know whether you really did not understand my language or just purposely doing this.....whatever it is but if my earlier statements really doesn't matches this....then to SHIVSENA Bhai "i am sorry for the language but this is what i actually meant...."

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Re: Why does God Shiva need a human Chariot to liberate souls.

Post by shivsena » 21 Dec 2009

RudraPutra wrote: problem with your question is that you go on asking without answering it ....this is like throwing beans and not watering it and expecting to grow on it's own.....see the whole thing depends on the conclusion and not on the mere so called observation
Dear rudraputra.
Your allegations are just not true; i have been very clear, straightforward and to the point in asking and answering the queries of others and my own; can you show me any query which i have not answered; if i do not know the answer i have prefered to keep quiet but if i have genuine dillemma i have wirtten about it frankly; i do not have this habit of beating about the bush and answering irrelevantly. i will answer only if i am 100% certain about my views and have Murli points to support them; i have some queries which i am churning and do not get definitive answers so i put them on the forum for my brothers views.

I have always invited PBKs for a healthy disussion with reference to Murli points only for better understanding of knowledge, but it is some PBKs who have been not sticking to the point and taking the discussion off-track.
....you do state that BK's as well as PBK's philosophy are just bogus(from your point of view)..
I do believe 100% that BK and PBK philosophy are just subtle Bhakti-marg and according to Murlis Bhakti-marg mein sab hai jhoot, gapoda, waste of time, waste of money and waste of energy and Bhakti-marg is durgati-marg.
then only this debate may move in healthy fruitful way or else just blah blah blah and nothing will come out...
If you think that my churnings for last 3 years on this forum are blah, blah, blah.....then what would you call the basic teachings which has not produced a single devta in last 70 years and the advance teachings which have not given any inheritance of 21 births inspite of the Father being present with PBKs.....and both the teachings have only produced confusion, seperation, hostility and silent enmity between the students ....is this true Godly knowledge!!!!....has the mystery of creator and his creation solved in any way !!!!!
shivsena.

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Re: Why does God Shiva need a human Chariot to liberate souls.

Post by sachkhand » 18 Jan 2010

RudraPutra wrote:Dear sachkhand,
Thanks[/] for your interference....

I think "thanks" is used to express gratitude and not to demean anyone. If we cannot exress our feelings truly in words then how can we experience the Absolute Truth. And the tragedy is that such people are trying to establish Satyug. Those people who cannot even express their emotions truly how can they experience The GodFather and help Him in establishing Satyug??? :confused:
RudraPutra wrote: ....i don't know whether you really did not understand my language or just purposely doing this

I really do not understand the language of some people here.
I really do not like someone interferring. But you have thanked me for interferring.
Funny!
I do not really understand whether my emotions are wrong or whether your words are false?
:neutral:
Sanjeev.

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Re: Why does God Shiva need a human Chariot to liberate souls.

Post by shivsena » 27 Jan 2010

RudraPutra wrote: now please answer us who is present fortunate Chariot of Shiv????????? according to you....
with micro details....
Dear rudraputra.

Just like every inquisitive soul i am also trying to find out who is the personified form of ShivBaba. Lately i have been churning on this and i have started thinking that ShivBaba may not be revealed by a male Chariot(neither Shiva was revealed through Lekhraj Kirpalani nor there is any indication that ShivBaba is being revealed through Virendra Dev Dixit). The reason for this belief being the 2 Murli points ie. "shivshakti-bharatmata anth ka hai yehi ek naara" and "vande-mataram" ....which means that ShivBaba may be revealed as shakti (feminine form of God Shiva)....this is what may surprise and shock every BK and PBK in the end ("jo sankalp aur sapne mein nahin hogaa woh paper aane wala hai")

shivsena.

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Re: Why does God Shiva need a human Chariot to liberate souls.

Post by shivsena » 17 Feb 2010

RudraPutra wrote: now please answer us who is present fortunate Chariot of Shiv????????? according to you....with micro details....
Dear rudraputra.

I wish to ask you a simple question: If you feel that Baba Dixit is the fortunate Chariot of God Shiva, then why have many PBKs(including the mother) left the fortunate Chariot and those who are still PBKs feel unsatisfied, confused, not sure whether they are on the right track.

shivsena.

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Re: Why does God Shiva need a human Chariot to liberate souls.

Post by RudraPutra » 17 Feb 2010

shivsena wrote:
Just like every inquisitive soul i am also trying to find out who is the personified form of ShivBaba. Lately i have been churning on this and i have started thinking that ShivBaba may not be revealed by a male Chariot(neither Shiva was revealed through Lekhraj Kirpalani nor there is any indication that ShivBaba is being revealed through Veerendra Dev Dixit). The reason for this belief being the 2 Murli points ie. "shivshakti-bharatmata anth ka hai yehi ek naara" and "vande-mataram" ....which means that ShivBaba may be revealed as shakti (feminine form of God Shiva)....this is what may surprise and shock every BK and PBK in the end ("jo sankalp aur sapne mein nahin hogaa woh paper aane wala hai")
.....thanx for coming up with new hypothesis.....and this time it's really really ...well huh...i cannot describe.....am i getting it wrong completely or do you really want to say that Ram-ShivBaba ,for whom you have tried each and every corner of the world to make PBK's aware about, is not a male but a female personified Chariot.?????????????????????????? or !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ,.........HATS OFF!!! for your research.....truely....

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Re: Why does God Shiva need a human Chariot to liberate souls.

Post by RudraPutra » 17 Feb 2010

shivsena wrote: I wish to ask you a simple question: If you feel that Baba Dixit is the fortunate Chariot of God Shiva, then why have many PBKs(including the mother) left the fortunate Chariot
....in Murli it has been said that "Maya kisiko nahi chodti.Achche achche maharathiyon ko bhi hap kar deti hai".....this is the reason why many(so what you said which is not true,instead it is few) PBK's including Jagdamba left the Yagya.....in Murli it has been said that "Shiv ek hi hai,shaktiyan anek hai"....Godly family is named with GOD and the believers of GOD.....although jagdamba(one of the Shiv's shakti who appears to have left Yagya) is not present right now but ShivBaba is there...."Ek ShivBaba dusra na koi"...
and those who are still PBKs feel unsatisfied, confused, not sure whether they are on the right track.
....sorry you are wrong here....do you want to say that i am insane to support PBK philosophy.....sorry brother,you have to accept that except few, many of us are firm on our philosophy.....and yep we are on the right and only on the right track!!!!!!!!!

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Re: Why does God Shiva need a human Chariot to liberate souls.

Post by shivsena » 17 Feb 2010

RudraPutra wrote: ....in Murli it has been said that "Maya kisiko nahi chodti.Achche achche maharathiyon ko bhi hap kar deti hai"....this is the reason why many(so what you said which is not true,instead it is few) PBK's including Jagdamba left the Yagya"[/b]

Are you trying to say that jagdamba(world mother) also has been eaten by Maya (one who is supposed to fulfil all desires of children and open the gates of heaven)...if this is your belief and that of all PBKs, then i am glad that i am not a part of it anymore.
....sorry you are wrong here....do you want to say that i am insane to support PBK philosophy.....sorry Brother,you have to accept that except few, many of us are firm on our philosophy.....and yep we are on the right and only on the right track!!!!!!!!!
I had the same feeling as you are having now when Vishnu Party came to me in 1997, but after a few years when jagdamba Maa left the Yagya, i am now convinced that advance knowledge is Krishna ki jhooti Gita and i no longer want to be a part of anything which takes me away from the truth. If you feel that advance knowledge is the right path then you have all my good wishes and let us wait and see for how long PBKs like you have faith in their guru.

shivsena.

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Re: Why does God Shiva need a human Chariot to liberate souls.

Post by RudraPutra » 18 Feb 2010

shivsena wrote: Are you trying to say that jagdamba(world mother) also has been eaten by Maya (one who is supposed to fulfil all desires of children and open the gates of heaven)
....why i am not getting you?...do you wanna say that you stayed in Yagya(PBK) only for jagdamba?....had ShivBaba asked anyone to do purusharth of being jagdamba? never...he always asked to be like lakshmi....
moreover i want to correct that jagdamba is not supposed to fulfil all desires of children.....but is supposed to fulfil all desires of all children.....which even includes asuri bachche....and what asuri bachche will ask for? they might ask for any sort of non shreemat wishes...is it good to fullfill those wishes,which actually jagdamba do? that is her part and she is playing her role.....that's it!!!....in Murli it has been said that "Mataon ne moh par jeet paa liya toh samjho woh vijayi ho gaye"....doesn't this gets applicable for jagadmata?....yes...it is and hence this moh had asked or compelled her to take such type of decisions.....but finally everyone will come to know including jagdamba that dehdhari(childrens for her and everyone) are nothing but real thorns and when she and everyone gets vairag from those dehdhari's they will definitely come to ShivBaba.....for this is what the final destination for all is...even for you,bro.....maano ya naa maano....
...if this is your belief and that of all PBKs, then i am glad that i am not a part of it anymore.
....even i am very glad that you are not a part of our family now.....filtering is going on and wastes have no place here.....but don't worry....many wastes have reached you and i still know many are there in our PBK family who will sooner or later will come towards you....so cheer up....Toot gayi hai maal moti bikhar chale...do din rehkar saath na jaane kidhar chale....some will move towards you and some will towards other guru's....
I had the same feeling as you are having now when Vishnu Party came to me in 1997, but after a few years when jagdamba Maa left the Yagya, i am now convinced that Advanced Knowledge is Krishna ki jhooti Gita
...yeah yeah....side scenes are made to distract us from our track.....jagdamba leaving Yagya is one of those side scenes which distracted not only you but many PBK's who were having no interest for shreemat....
fine i will ask you one question.....if you follow jagdamba(this is what your statements appeared to me),then would you answer me why she used to prepare chaai or tea for many of PBK's at her time....when it was strictly prohibited by ShivBaba?
in Murli it has been clearly stated.....then why she did so?....moh...is the answer...attachment.....she is jagdamba because of Krishna's soul playing mother's role through her.....and Krishna ,being incomplete,has lot of attachment towards children hence shreemat has been broken.....and now she had broken one more greatest shreemat by leaving Yagya.....and you are pointing ShivBaba for actually what she had done.....shreemat has been broken by jagdamba and not by ShivBaba ever.....and you have accepted in your post that you believe ShivBaba to get manifested via femine body....so she might be the one for you,is not it?....come on buddy,speak out....
i no longer want to be a part of anything which takes me away from the truth.
taking you away from the truth?...where is the truth?....you are in confused state.....you yourself don't know anything about truth and expecting to not get away from it?

If you feel that Advanced Knowledge is the right path then you have all my good wishes and let us wait and see for how long PBKs like you have faith in their guru.
this doesn't seem to be good wish given from heart....but it's OK.....i will accept it.....koi pyaar se de toh hum mana nahi karte....jhoota hi sahi...

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Re: Why does God Shiva need a human Chariot to liberate souls.

Post by shivsena » 21 Feb 2010

RudraPutra wrote: taking you away from the truth?...where is the truth?....you are in confused state.....you yourself don't know anything about truth and expecting to not get away from it?
Dear rudraputra.

Your are right..i do not know what is the absolute truth but i know one thing for sure that BK and advance interpretations of Murlis are absolute untruth ("Bhakti-marg mein sab jhoot hi jhoot hai, Gyan ki ratti Bhai nahin")....also Murli says "Bap hai akela satya.... Gyan ka soot(thread of knowledge) ekdam ulza hua hai, jab tak Bap naa aaye koi sulzaa naa sake".....so till Father ShivBaba comes in personified form no one can know the truth....and also it is more important first to know what is untruth and also it is better to accept that we do not know the truth rather than to remain in an illusion and accept philosophies as truth.

It is said in Bhakti "Seek and you shall find" (if you do not seek you will never find)...that is the state of the BK world who feel that BK knowledge is the last stop in spirituality and the PBK world also thinks the same, but i feel that the top of the spiritual pyramid (final word of God--true Gita knowledge) is still to come in future.

shivsena.

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