False Trimurti of Adv. knowledge.

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Roy
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Re: False Trimurti of Adv. knowledge.

Post by Roy » 28 Apr 2011

Sach_Khand wrote:I could not understand what you meant by that.I am not forcing Arjun to explain. He stated that nothing is contradictory in reply to my questions which I feel have contrdictory explanations in AIVV. But Arjun sees no contradiction in it. O.k. No problem.But my questions remain. If you can answer, please do try to answer. I am here for discussion and not for debate that too with hostility towards each other. I have debated earlier and have even debated using harsh words. But now I feel that it is not fruitful. And I think better refrain from debate.By the way, if you do not mind can you write differences between debate and discussion. So that I can use my words in a better way. In Hindi I feel "Waad vivaad" is the meaning of debate and "churcha" is the meaning of discussion. I can understand those Hindi words but I may be wrong (just 5% possibility) in understanding the English words "Debate" and "Discussion".And point out what is funny in my replies.
Hi Sanjeev Bhai

We are all effort makers on here, none of us is yet perfect(especially myself!)! :D I have noticed Bhai, that you are making effort to be more "easy going" on this forum; a little less in souls' faces, with your comments; and i for one am grateful for this. But the old Sanjeev Bhai, still leaks out at times, and you still appear to be quite challenging(though less aggressive it has to be said), on occasion. Your comments imo, are sometimes more akin to a duel or a debate, rather than a simple sharing of ideas. I have no problem with the "new look" Sanjeev Bhai, as i think as imperfect humans, we will get into debates, and slightly raised voices. I am just really grateful that you aren't writing in big bold letters, and on a one man crusade, to make us all better people! :D My comment really Bhai, was to say that although i appreciate what you are now doing on this forum; you can still be a little bit challenging with your comments(no problem here with that though), such that to me, it feels more like a debating, than a quiet discussion over tea and biccies, on a lazy Sunday afternoon in the garden! :D

So I am enjoying the new Sanjeev; i hope he remains a while longer in our presence!

Roy

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Re: False Trimurti of Adv. knowledge.

Post by arjun » 28 Apr 2011

I have noticed Bhai, that you are making effort to be more "easy going" on this forum; a little less in souls' faces, with your comments; and i for one am grateful for this. But the old Sanjeev Bhai, still leaks out at times, and you still appear to be quite challenging(though less aggressive it has to be said), on occasion. Your comments imo, are sometimes more akin to a duel or a debate, rather than a simple sharing of ideas. I have no problem with the "new look" Sanjeev Bhai, as i think as imperfect humans, we will get into debates, and slightly raised voices. I am just really grateful that you aren't writing in big bold letters,
I agree with you Bhai. :D

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Re: False Trimurti of Adv. knowledge.

Post by ANU » 28 Apr 2011

warrior wrote:And another question, is it the story of Shewakram that is making you so confused?
First of all, I don't feel confused. I just use available facts and dare raise doubts about credibility of teachings spread by Baba Virendra Dev Dixit.
Second, it is not just about the topic of Shewakram. There are dozens topics, and the issue of Shewakram is only a drop. I presented a wide selection of topics in my posts.

warrior wrote: If your research is different and you gathered few pieces of independent literature please share it here. Kindly don't bother sharing any BK stuff 'cause we all know already what is out there from BK, unless you have checked with the BK officials and got a good response from them with some kind of proof.
I worked as part of a bigger work. I don't know what other research you mean and who did it. Did you do?
Together with few other students we gathered materials wich will be first published as a book as a part of a university research. It will contain all sources, documents, a comparison of BKIVV doctrine and AIVV doctrine, description of policy of both organisations, mutual arguments, the histroy of the Yagya described to the extent we managed to understand it based on the research, similiarities and contradictions of Gyan with general history, philosophy etc. Once the whole work is published, the research will be revealed also here in details. Hope it will happen soon.

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Re: False Trimurti of Adv. knowledge.

Post by warrior » 28 Apr 2011

ANU wrote:
First of all, I don't feel confused.
That is good.
ANU wrote:I worked as part of a bigger work. I don't know what other research you mean and who did it. Did you do?
Together with few other students we gathered materials wich will be first published as a book as a part of a university research. It will contain all sources, documents, a comparison of BKIVV doctrine and AIVV doctrine, description of policy of both organisations, mutual arguments, the histroy of the Yagya described to the extent we managed to understand it based on the research, similiarities and contradictions of Gyan with general history, philosophy etc. Once the whole work is published, the research will be revealed also here in details. Hope it will happen soon.
Please explain what do you mean 'bigger work'? Do you mean a fat book?
Are you doing it all by yourself or under the guidance of Baba Dixit?
In my humble opinion, at present the history of Yagya is incomplete so it would be better if you put on hold any printing of books till hard facts come to life.

Good luck and good wishes

aumshanti

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Re: False Trimurti of Adv. knowledge.

Post by ANU » 29 Apr 2011

Please explain what do you mean 'bigger work'? Do you mean a fat book?
Are you doing it all by yourself or under the guidance of Baba Dixit?
In my humble opinion, at present the history of Yagya is incomplete so it would be better if you put on hold any printing of books till hard facts come to life.
I mean a university research thesis.

Baba Dixit rejected documents which were presented to him, so the rest is self explanatory.

Who will discover the history of the Yagya, if not those who do research?

Hope that everything is clear to you.

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Re: False Trimurti of Adv. knowledge.

Post by arjun » 29 Apr 2011

anu wrote:I worked as part of a bigger work. I don't know what other research you mean and who did it. Did you do?
Together with few other students we gathered materials wich will be first published as a book as a part of a university research. It will contain all sources, documents, a comparison of BKIVV doctrine and AIVV doctrine, description of policy of both organisations, mutual arguments, the histroy of the Yagya described to the extent we managed to understand it based on the research, similiarities and contradictions of Gyan with general history, philosophy etc. Once the whole work is published, the research will be revealed also here in details. Hope it will happen soon.
And I hope it contains the real identity of the above member, too. If I am not wrong the above member identified himself/herself as Tharun Mitthal from Dubai. I hope this piece of information will be available in the research publication. And I hope it would also be tallied with the so-called emails sent to Baba Virendra Dev Dixit by the so-called Tharun Mitthal containing all the questions that are being raised on this forum (as anu) and I also hope that it would be tallied with the letters of faith (signed on stamp papers at Farrukhabad before undergoing bhatti) available in the records of AIVV.

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Brahma-vishnu-shankar have bodies of light.

Post by shivsena » 30 Apr 2011

To all pbk brothers (who believe that Brahma-Vishnu-Shankar will be revealed as deh-dharis.)

ShivBaba says in Murli 10-11-2001 : "Brahma Vishnu Shankar ka rachieta kaun ?? yeh hai guhai prashna.....inka bhi rachieta oonch te oonch bhagwan hi hai, jisko shiv kahete hain....yeh teen devta light ke hain, innme haddi-maas nahin hai...parantu moti buddhi wale samaj nahin sakte".
[" who is the creator of Brahma-Vishnu-Shankar ?? this is a deep query...the creator is highest of the high bhagwan who is called shiv....these three devtas are of light....they do not have bodies of flesh and bones....but thick-headed souls do not understand."]

In the above point ShivBaba clearly says that Brahma-Vishnu-Shankar are having bodies of light and not of flesh and bones as PBKs believe and teach....and HE also says that the thick-headed souls do not understand this."

shivsena.

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Re: False Trimurti of Adv. knowledge.

Post by Roy » 30 Apr 2011

shivsena wrote:ShivBaba says in Murli 10-11-2001 : " who is the creator of Brahma-Vishnu-Shankar ?? this is a deep query...the creator is highest of the high bhagwan who is called shiv....these three devtas are of light....they do not have bodies of flesh and bones....but thick-headed souls do not understand."]
Dear Shivsena Bhai

Here is a nice extract from a Sakar Murli, that balances the point you are trying to make with yours....

“First of all (we) come in the Brahmin class, then the deity (class)... classes. The classes are only here. There is no question of classes in the Subtle Region at all…. ....You know that as is one’s feelings, so is the vision that is caused. Nonetheless, there is no matter of any snake etc. there. There can’t even be bulls there. In the Subtle Region, there are only deities. You visit the Subtle Region – you see garden, fruits, etc. Is there any garden there? Baba causes vision. But it does not exist. The intellect says – there cannot be trees etc. in the Subtle Region. It is certainly a vision. The vision would also be caused about here (i.e. this world). All this is a vision. This is called a game of magic. This is not knowledge. Human beings make other human beings Barristers; that would not be called a magic. They give knowledge. This one transforms you from a human being to a deity for the new world. That is why it is called magic. Baba is also called a magician because he has the key to visions with him. They say it is by guru's grace; the idol caused vision. There is no benefit in it. Here you are yourself becoming Lakshmi-Narayan, Sita-Ram by hard work.....As regards visions etc. it is just chitchat. One should not wish/hope for that. They feel that now when Baba Himself has come, He should cause vision. But all this is wasteful. Then, if divine vision is not caused, they become disheartened and leave the study.” [Mu 10.09.07]

This point can be used to clarify the meaning of your point imo. The subtle deities of the Subtle Region, are there for experiences or visions only; they do not achieve anything in the practical sense i.e. have bones and flesh, as in the practical corporeal world.

The part of Brahma as we all know, is played here in the practical world, through a body of flesh and bones. There is no soul residing in the Subtle Regions, in a subtle body of Brahma. What use is a deity in the Subtle Regions, other than being a region of experiences, which have no practical value.

Shankar's part is to be played practically. [Av 1-10-71]

Just like the part of Brahma is played practically, through a body of flesh and bones; so will the part of Shankar. How else will Shiv and Shankar become synonymous with one another?

Roy

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Re: False Trimurti of Adv. knowledge.

Post by ANU » 30 Apr 2011

arjun wrote:And I hope it contains the real identity of the above member, too. If I am not wrong the above member identified himself/herself as Tharun Mitthal from Dubai. I hope this piece of information will be available in the research publication. And I hope it would also be tallied with the so-called emails sent to Baba Veerendra Dev Dixit by the so-called Tharun Mitthal containing all the questions that are being raised on this forum (as anu) and I also hope that it would be tallied with the letters of faith (signed on stamp papers at Farrukhabad before undergoing bhatti) available in the records of AIVV.
The person calling himself arjun assigns to me untrue information. I have never said that I am from Dubai. Still, arjun, has already manged to distribute twice that I am from Dubai. Arjun, go back to my post and read them well please and you will find out where I live temporarily and only then kindly please distrubute information. And kindly bear in mind that the nature of my professional work is such that it requires me to travel. I will be in China by this time next year. Will you then call me the same label? ;-)

I am not the main author of the publication, but only someone who assisted in gathering materials in India when I was there. In such role I will be in the book. People living in the West will be the authors as it will be a part of their academic work. Would you like to be a part of that undertaking, so that you are spontaneously giving directions what it should contain?

I lost faith in credibility and reliability of AIVV archives of records. Last year they admited that they lost a vast part of research done by students in Bengal in app. 2000. Two or three years before they admited that they could not find some other personal data of some students and they urged them to send the head office their personal data. But.... let it be.

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Re: False Trimurti of Adv. knowledge.

Post by Sach_Khand » 30 Apr 2011

Roy wrote:Hi Sanjeev Bhai

We are all effort makers on here, none of us is yet perfect(especially myself!)! I have noticed Bhai, that you are making effort to be more "easy going" on this forum; a little less in souls' faces, with your comments; and i for one am grateful for this. But the old Sanjeev Bhai, still leaks out at times, and you still appear to be quite challenging(though less aggressive it has to be said), on occasion. Your comments imo, are sometimes more akin to a duel or a debate, rather than a simple sharing of ideas. I have no problem with the "new look" Sanjeev Bhai, as i think as imperfect humans, we will get into debates, and slightly raised voices. I am just really grateful that you aren't writing in big bold letters, and on a one man crusade, to make us all better people! :D My comment really Bhai, was to say that although i appreciate what you are now doing on this forum; you can still be a little bit challenging with your comments(no problem here with that though), such that to me, it feels more like a debating, than a quiet discussion over tea and biccies, on a lazy Sunday afternoon in the garden! :D

So I am enjoying the new Sanjeev; i hope he remains a while longer in our presence!

Roy
I am not here to make you feel better or change your moods. But yes, I can check myself not to do the wrong things on my part, to the best possible for me.

Your reply is more written just to remind me what all I have done earlier and to say that changing yourself now is not that useful. First of all please understand, I am not changing myself for anyone over here. It is for my own purusharth. And I do not need certificates from here.

My comments are challenging. Yes. They are. I am not interested in chit chatting in this forum as you mentioned over tea and biccies, on a lazy Sunday afternoon in the garden! I can do that at my home with my family members or with my friends here. I am not making effort here to be more easy going. I am trying to avoid unnecessary emotional expressions here. Because emotions are valuable. They should not be wasted infront of everyone.

"With the New Look:."
Roy and Arjun,
you might be interested in doing make up or wear a mask to have a new look of yourselves inorder to get appreciation from others. But I am trying my best to remove all the masks that are covering me in all this Kalpa. So, you both can do make up as much you want but please do not try to judge others based on your mentality only.

I hope my response is not a problem for you.

:neutral:
Sanjeev.

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Re: False Trimurti of Adv. knowledge.

Post by Sach_Khand » 30 Apr 2011

Roy wrote: Dear Shivsena Bhai

Here is a nice extract from a Sakar Murli, that balances the point you are trying to make with yours....

“First of all (we) come in the Brahmin class, then the deity (class)... classes. The classes are only here. There is no question of classes in the Subtle Region at all…. ....You know that as is one’s feelings, so is the vision that is caused. Nonetheless, there is no matter of any snake etc. there. There can’t even be bulls there. In the Subtle Region, there are only deities. You visit the Subtle Region – you see garden, fruits, etc. Is there any garden there? Baba causes vision. But it does not exist. The intellect says – there cannot be trees etc. in the Subtle Region. It is certainly a vision. The vision would also be caused about here (i.e. this world). All this is a vision. This is called a game of magic. This is not knowledge. Human beings make other human beings Barristers; that would not be called a magic. They give knowledge. This one transforms you from a human being to a deity for the new world. That is why it is called magic. Baba is also called a magician because he has the key to visions with him. They say it is by guru's grace; the idol caused vision. There is no benefit in it. Here you are yourself becoming Lakshmi-Narayan, Sita-Ram by hard work.....As regards visions etc. it is just chitchat. One should not wish/hope for that. They feel that now when Baba Himself has come, He should cause vision. But all this is wasteful. Then, if divine vision is not caused, they become disheartened and leave the study.” [Mu 10.09.07]
There is nothing in the above point that diagrees with the Murli point quoted by Shivsena which says that BVS are subtle deities of Subtle Region without any hard bones and with no flesh.
Roy wrote: This point can be used to clarify the meaning of your point imo. The subtle deities of the Subtle Region, are there for experiences or visions only; they do not achieve anything in the practical sense i.e. have bones and flesh, as in the practical corporeal world.
If subtle body had no function at all and is of no use then all human beings should not have any subtle body at all. There are instances in this world where some Sadhus and Gurus appeared and talked with their disciples in practical even after leaving their gross body. A soul can work even with subtle body without gross body. Subtle body has it's own importance and functions. In the above Murli point quoted by Roy, the visions of Subtle Region etc., is not about subtle BVS. But is talked in general when children enjoyed the visions of heaven and Krishna etc., and longed for them. And so it is said that such visions are not real and are of no use.
Roy wrote: The part of Brahma as we all know, is played here in the practical world, through a body of flesh and bones. There is no soul residing in the Subtle Regions, in a subtle body of Brahma. What use is a deity in the Subtle Regions, other than being a region of experiences, which have no practical value.
This is your opinion. Brahma in the corporeal world is Prajapita Brahma. And it is said many times that there is subtle Brahma and also it is said that Shiv does not come through subtle Brahma. So, this subtle Brahma is different from Prajapita Brahma. And like subtle Brahma there are subtle Vishnu and Shankar. And these subtle BVS are also recreated by Shiv before beginning the recreation of the New World.
Roy wrote: Shankar's part is to be played practically. [Av 1-10-71]

Just like the part of Brahma is played practically, through a body of flesh and bones; so will the part of Shankar. How else will Shiv and Shankar become synonymous with one another?
Roy
Here Shankar's part means the part of causing destruction. It does not mean Subtle Shankar will play part like Shiv plays part in this corporeal world. There are points where it is said that actually it is Mama that plays the part of Shankar (or destruction, please correct me if wrong). It is also said in Murlis that destruction will be caused by that person who cannot get tinged by the sin (jis par paap na lagaey).

:neutral:
Sanjeev.

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Re: False Trimurti of Adv. knowledge.

Post by Roy » 30 Apr 2011

Sach_Khand wrote:I am not here to make you feel better or change your moods. But yes, I can check myself not to do the wrong things on my part, to the best possible for me.Your reply is more written just to remind me what all I have done earlier and to say that changing yourself now is not that useful. First of all please understand, I am not changing myself for anyone over here. It is for my own purusharth. And I do not need certificates from here.My comments are challenging. Yes. They are. I am not interested in chit chatting in this forum as you mentioned over tea and biccies, on a lazy Sunday afternoon in the garden! I can do that at my home with my family members or with my friends here. I am not making effort here to be more easy going. I am trying to avoid unnecessary emotional expressions here. Because emotions are valuable. They should not be wasted infront of everyone."With the New Look:."Roy and Arjun,you might be interested in doing make up or wear a mask to have a new look of yourselves inorder to get appreciation from others. But I am trying my best to remove all the masks that are covering me in all this Kalpa. So, you both can do make up as much you want but please do not try to judge others based on your mentality only.I hope my response is not a problem for you.
Well no-one can accuse you of not being your true self Bhai, and i do always appreciate that in a person. Just as i appreciate that you are now writing in normal sized print, which makes anything you say, much more readable. I no longer feel like I am being attacked, with big letters! :D
My point in writing what i said Bhai, was to explain why i made the comment about you still debating, and not simply discussing. Your tone and language, are often quite challenging imo, and aren't that of simply having a nice quiet discussion. I hope i have now made my viewpoint clear. I apologise in advance, if my comment about appreciating your qualities, is in any way offensive to you!

Roy

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Re: False Trimurti of Adv. knowledge.

Post by Roy » 30 Apr 2011

Sach_Khand wrote:There is nothing in the above point that diagrees with the Murli point quoted by Shivsena which says that BVS are subtle deities of Subtle Region without any hard bones and with no flesh.
I used the word balances, not disagrees. Murli points in isolation, can give a false impression of their meaning, imo. Thus, i feel, the point i quoted, gives a more balanced view, of what Shivsena's point actually means.

What are the subtle bodies, of Brahma, Vishnu, and Shankar, in the Subtle Regions for? Imo, these subtle deities, correspond to the three different levels of vision, one can experience. Gyani experience, in Brahma puri? Golden Age experience, in Vishnu puri; and experience of Nirakar stage, in Shankar puri. All very lovely, but of no use in the practical sense, where remembrance of ShivBaba, and churning of Gyan, is the only method to gain your inheritance.

Roy

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Re: False Trimurti of Adv. knowledge.

Post by arjun » 01 May 2011

anu wrote:The person calling himself arjun assigns to me untrue information. I have never said that I am from Dubai. Still, arjun, has already manged to distribute twice that I am from Dubai. Arjun, go back to my post and read them well please and you will find out where I live temporarily and only then kindly please distrubute information. And kindly bear in mind that the nature of my professional work is such that it requires me to travel. I will be in China by this time next year. Will you then call me the same label? ;-)

I am not the main author of the publication, but only someone who assisted in gathering materials in India when I was there. In such role I will be in the book. People living in the West will be the authors as it will be a part of their academic work. Would you like to be a part of that undertaking, so that you are spontaneously giving directions what it should contain?
Anu may live anywhere in the world. I am least bothered about it. But I hope his/her name doesn't change with the places that he/she changes. I hope the research publication would at least contain the name 'Tharun Mitthal' that he/she claims to be her name.

It is only on his/her advice that I contacted Baba about her identity and found out that the identity that he/she is providing is not true. All the questions that anu is raising here on this forum were received by Baba through email from some other person (who is a female and not male as anu claims). But still, if he/she insists that he/she is Tharun Mitthal, then his/her identity can be officially tallied from AIVV based on the letters of faith obtained before PBKs undergo bhatti. If anu can just inform us the month and year when he/she underwent bhatti at Kampil/Farrukhabad mini-Madhubans, then we can find out whether any such person (with name 'Tharun Mitthal) underwent bhatti at that time or not.

Baba told me the name of the person who may be writing as anu and also to find out from that person. But I haven't written to that person because I don't want to make any allegation against any person without any concrete proof. That person used to send mails to me (and possibly other PBKs on behalf of a research team) almost on daily basis for quite some time. But as soon as anu started writing on this forum, that person stopped sending mails to me suddenly. I am doubting anu's claims only because the information provided by him/her about his/her identity on this forum seems to be contradictory to her writings on this forum. Otherwise, I have no interest in anybody's identity.

The number of PBKs from foreign countries can be counted on fingertips. And I have enquired from some of the PBKs living abroad whether they know any PBK with the name Tharun Mitthal and they answered in the negative. So, it would be nice of anu if he/she could provide the above information.

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Re: False Trimurti of Adv. knowledge.

Post by arjun » 01 May 2011

sachkhand wrote:Roy and Arjun,
you might be interested in doing make up or wear a mask to have a new look of yourselves inorder to get appreciation from others. But I am trying my best to remove all the masks that are covering me in all this Kalpa. So, you both can do make up as much you want but please do not try to judge others based on your mentality only.
The above Member is free to have any opinion about me.

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