Om Radhe cross-examined in Hyderabad Court 1938

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Om Radhe cross-examined in Hyderabad Court 1938

Post by fluffy bunny » 14 Jul 2012

This is apparently thanks to the work of Robin Ramsay and unnamed others (I guess from here). It is taken from an official transcript of the actual court record prior to the Om Mandli being banned when Om Radhe, the so called "Mother of Humanity" according to the BKs, was cross examined by a Mr Balchand.

Downloadable version, here

This record was found in Pakistan recently along with further documents of interest we have yet to see. Robin points out that the "official version" of Om Radhe's statement has been re-written and a later version of "The Knowledge" put into her mouth by the usual BK historical revisionists. It has been mildly edited to remove repetition.

To me, Om Radhe comes across as conceited. Apart from typically not answering straight questions, she also lies to, or deceived, the court. The questions regarding the "screaming" is a reference to the screaming and crying the Om Mandli women did when they went into trances in the beginning. And they did.

I note that by 1938, the numbers had dropped from an early 500 high, and claimed 300 around 1936, to around 200 with only 10 or 12 adult males and that her family was Sikh, which might account for the early influences of Sikh and the Guru Granth (Sikh holy book) which often come up in the Sakar Murlis.

It is interesting to see the question of "hypnotism" comes up ... and so does the question of "antimony". This is something to do with the "magical eyewash" that the BKs were meant to use. Kohl might be a better translation (surma in Punjabi or ithmid in Arabic). In some early photos of Lekhraj Kirpalani, he is seen wearing heavily black lined eyes, I have seen pictures of Gulzar wearing the same. It seems the people thought there was some magic to it, and at a very simple level it must have made BKs eyes seem very intense. What the significance was, or why they did it, I have no idea.

See also all the questions about Lekhraj Kirpalani kissing, touching, sitting the teenagers and young women on his lap and in his bed, and Om Radhe's admittance of it. This was one of the big accusations of his critics. Try that today and you would get every bit a strong reaction, perhaps even moreso.

Lies ...? She claims Lekhraj Kirpalani does not say he is Krishna and does not call his female followers gopis ... and yet we see both constant throughout the Murlis and early knowledge. Perhaps it is a half truth and someone else say Lekhraj Kirpalani was Krishna, I do not know ... but that is certainly what The Knowledge says.

Robin also confirms they have a copy of Lekhraj Kirpalani's birth certificate proving he was not 60 years old in 1936, like the BKs always claim ... he was 54 in 1938 ... and Janki Kripalani was only 13. The Yagya had also started "three or four years beforehand", i.e. 1934.
STATEMENT BY OM RADHE

“I am the President of the Om Mandli.

The basis of Om Mandli teaching is that everyone is God, and that Om Mandli itself is God. Each inmate of Om Mandli itself is also God and such Gian is taken by every member of Om Mandli.

I do not know Vedas because I have not read them. I take everyone as Braham, i.e. God.

I see no difference between what I call my own and of others. I see no difference between male and female.

I cannot say whether there is any agitation among the people against Om Mandli."


Q : Do you read papers?
A : I hear no evil, talk no evil and do no evil. (Again says I read but pay no heed. But again she resiles (?) from this statement).

Q: Do you want to give a straight reply whether you read from the papers or not?
A: I do not want to give any other reply than the one I have already given

Q: Who are the members of the Om Mandli and how many?
A: Males, females and children are the members of the Om Mandli. They all number about 200. About 60 or 70 are non-residential members, and the remaining are residential. The children residential members number about 40 or 50, and residential adult females about 15 or 20 and adult males 10 or 12. The male children number about 10 or 12.

Q: Does the Mandli believe in enlisting more male or female members?
A: We are indifferent whether the members enrolled are male or female as everyone is entitled to get Gian without any restriction of caste or creed.

Q: Are Bhaibunds bearing any enmity toward Om Mandli?
A: I cannot say whether Bhaibunds are bearing any enmity as I consider everyone as Braham.

Q: Have you taken gian ?
A : I still take gian.

Q: Do you consider Lekhraj as Father?
A: We consider him as Gian Father, similarly as Christ and Krishna are considered as Father by their respective followers.

Q: What is the approximate expenditure per month of the Om Mandli?
A: I am not prepared to answer this question.

Q: How many bungalows Om Mandli has hired in Karachi?
A: 3 bungalows. One in Soldier Bazaar, and two at Clifton.

Q: Do you use antimony in the Mandli.
A: We use not only ordinary antimony but also Gian antimony which was used by Krishna and Christ, and Nanak and Mahomed also.

Q: Do you know hypnotism?
A : I do not know what is meant by hypnotism, but I know hypnotism of Gian. Every person is a magician having Gian, just as Christ and Krishna were. I know hypnotism which Christ and Krishna possessed. I picked up this Gian of Christ and Krishna in the Mandli.

Q: Do you fall in trance owing to this Gian?
A: I am in permanent trance like Prophets on account of Gian.

Q: Do you lose your consciousness on account of Gian?
A: We become conscious as well as unconscious at the same time, just as in sleep a person becomes conscious as well as unconscious. Lord Krishna has also stated that be Brahmachari while living in Grahast, (household) and also be non-eater and non-drinker by even eating and drinking.

Q: Do you observe any difference between Brahmachari and Grahasti?
A: We observe no such difference, as lotus flower though in water is also out of water.

Q: Do you believe in the institution of marriage?
A: We believe first in Gian and then in marriage, as Sita and Ram had Gian before they married.

Q: Do you believe yourself in marriage?
A: We believe marriage is mere companionship. We consider marriage between Ram and Sia as companionship marriage which is above five vices.

Q: Do you consider non-members as Gyanis?
A: I can’t say anything about non-members of Mandli.

Q: Do you permit Mandli members to marry a non-Mandli member?
A: It is left to the choice of the member concerned, but Mandli has only to give Gian.

Q: Do you prevent minor girls from going to their parents?
A: They are not prevented from going to their parents.

Q: Is your mother alive and is she a member of Om Mandli ?
A: Yes

Q: Since how long has Om Mandli come into existence?
A: 3 to 4 years.

Om Radhe Recalled and reaffirmed.

Om Radhe: Pokardas was my Father but I do not consider him so, not because my Father is dead but because I take Gian from Lekhraj and also live with him as his daughter.

I have got my faith in all scriptures including Granth Sahib. In our own mandli no scripture of any religion is kept nor is any scripture read.

Oral discourses are given from Gita.

I consider paying homage to Granth Sahib as idol worship. Similarly I consider it idol worship to pay homage to any scripture, as I am "Aham Brahm Asmi" (God), and the whole world is my Maya (Creation).

I never read any scripture I consider that reading as idol worship. I consider this the Gian of Gita that I am "Braham". i.e Bhagwan, and hence I have not to bow before any scripture.

I am different from the God as conceived, for I am a living and moving God.

I cannot quote any relevant passage from the Bhagavad Gita in support of my above view, but if i look into the Gita I might find it.

Q: Do you discourse in Om Mandli that worshipping Granth Sahib (Sikh scripture) and other scriptures is equal to idol worship?
A: I consider that worshipping means to follow what is in sacred books and not in bowing only.

Q: Is it the teaching of the Om Mandli to pay no formal homage to Granth Sahib and sacred books?
A: We consider it idol worship to pay homage only, but to follow the instruction therein is to worship the scriptures.

Q: Had you gone to a temple of Sikhs before you joined Om Mandli?
A: Yes, I had gone to a Tikarna (Sikh holy place). I had accepted Kanah Sahib before I joined the Mandli.

Q: Have you ever taken Kanah Sahib ( Sikh toli) after joining the Mandli?
A: No I do not need it also as I have got already Kanah Sahib of self-realization.

Q; Is it the teaching of Om Mandli that it is composed of flour, sugar and ghee and that it is not sacred.
A: No.

Q: Do you consider that Kanah Prasad is sacred and would you take it?
A: I can’t answer this question until Kanah Prasad is offered to me.

Q: Does Dada Lekhraj call himself Krishna?
A: No.

Q; Do you dance with ringing anklets?
A; Girls do so similarly as is done in schools on festival occasions. I and certain other grown up girls also join.

Q: Has Dada Lekhraj also joined you in such a dance?
A: He has been witnessing only such dances and feeling happy over them.

Q: Does anyone act for Lord Krishna in the dance?
A: No, as each one of us is ATMA (God in this context).

Q; Is feeding of Lord Krishna done in such dances?
A: No

Q; Has Lekhraj ever made you sit in his lap?
A: I do not remember this. But I do not consider it objectionable to sit in his lap because I consider him as a spiritual Father and superior to the usual Father owing to his leading me from hell to heaven.

Q: Does Dada Lekhraj call girls of the Mandli as Gopies?
A: No.

Q: Does Dada Lekhraj embrace girls?
A: Yes he does so as a spiritual Father should embrace his children, because he considers all female inmates of the Om Mandli, whether children or adults, as his own daughters.

Q:Do all the female inmates, whether children or adults, take Braham Vidya ( regarded as the core philosophy of the Vedas and Upanishads) in Om Mandli?
A: Yes

Q: Do you consider it objectionable, or a sin, while teaching Braham Vidya, that Dada Lekhraj embraces the persons to whom he imparts Braham Vidya?
A: We do not consider it objectionable nor a sin, as we all inmates of Om Mandli do no evil.

Q: Does Dada Lekhraj kiss girls while giving Gian?
A: He does so because he does it as Gian Father.

Q: Does Dada Lekhraj tell girls to kiss him?
A: To my knowledge I do not know it.

Q: Has he kissed you in Gian?
A: Yes he has kissed me several times as a spiritual Father.

Q: Does Gian increase because of kissing and embracing by Dada Lekhraj?
A: This kissing and embracing has nothing to do with Gian, because he kisses as a Father would kiss his daughter.

Q: Do other males also kiss and embrace girls while getting Gian?
A: No other males do so as this is the privilege of Dada Lekhraj as he is Gian Father to all.

Q: Does Dada Lekhraj treat his daughter and daughter-in-law differently from other girls in the matter of kissing and embracing?
A: He loves them as he loves other girls but I have not seen whether he embraces and kisses them also.

Q: Do you all sit without any objection on his bed?
A: Yes, we do as we have no objection.

Q: Is Dada Lekhraj above sin because he is a Gian Father?
A: Yes he does no sin being Gian Father, nor can he do any sin as he believes he is ‘Aham Brahm Asmi’ and above sin.

Q: Has Dada Lekhraj reached that stage of spirituality that whatever he does cannot be a sin?
A: Lord Krishna knew that he was Braham after self-realization and hence was above sin. Similarly Dada Lekhraj also considers himself as Braham and above sin and can commit no sin, like Lord Krishna.

Q:How many receptacles of antimony are kept in the mandli?
A: About 6 or 7

Q: Is there any Gian in the antimony which you have put in your eyes?
A: No.

Q: Do all inmates use this antimony?
A: Yes.

Q: At what age children are admitted into Om Mandli?
A: At the age of 5 Years. There are many children of that age as members of Om Mandli.

Q: Are these children also given the Gian of the Mandli?
A:Yes.

Q: Do girls fall in trance in Om Mandli?
A: Yes they fall in trance and see visions of God in that trance, as Arjun had seen visions of God.

Q: Do girls of tender age fall into such a trance?
A:Yes

Q: Do adults also fall in such a trance?
A: Yes, all males and females do fall in such a trance?

Q: Who gives Gian in the Mandli?
A: Every male and female member of Om Mandli takes and gives Gian, which I mean ‘Atam Gian’ (Sikh: spiritual knowledge).

Q: Is screaming done in trance?
A: No screaming is done in trance by any but all falling in trance talk of what they se like Arjan before Krishna.

Q: Is a new member initiated into the Gian by girls only?
A:Yes as Miran used to give Gian. (Again says males also give Gian)

Q: Do you preach in Om Mandli that husband and wife should not believe in Grahast?
A:Yes we do preach that they should live as Sita and Ram as Lord Krishna lives in Anasakati ie without desire.

Q: Does Lekhraj live in Grahast in Om Mandli?
A : He lives in Vanprasth (retirement). His youngest child is about 10 years old.

Further cross examination reserved. Soon after the Mandli was banned by the government and the case withdrawn from Court.

Sd/-SOBHSING
City Magistrate
Hyderabad Sind

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Re: Om Radhe cross-examined in Hyderabad Court 1938

Post by dyavu » 19 Jul 2012

It's published in one of the old book....it is not directly taken from the court...this information taken from Anti Om Mandali book....

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Re: Om Radhe cross-examined in Hyderabad Court 1938

Post by fluffy bunny » 19 Jul 2012

Thank you for the tip, are the people involved going to share that book?

I've been asking for a while.

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Re: Om Radhe cross-examined in Hyderabad Court 1938

Post by dyavu » 23 Jul 2012

do not know...i hope it will release soon to the world....

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Re: Om Radhe cross-examined in Hyderabad Court 1938

Post by Larena » 25 Jul 2012

See also all the questions about Lekhraj Kirpalani kissing, touching, sitting the teenagers and young women on his lap and in his bed, and Om Radhe's admittance of it. This was one of the big accusations of his critics. Try that today and you would get every bit a strong reaction, perhaps even moreso.
I saw in PBKs centers mothers and girls bathing Baba, massaging his body with oils, aloe, balms. They touched him all over his body and he stroked, caressed, fondled them. They competed among themselves to get more of his attention. I saw them feeding him and him feeding them. Baba has a special set of clothes, pillows, sheets and dishes in centers. Mothers and girls always treated him as a honorable guest - he received everything in a special way and of a special sort. Few time I saw them almost fighting for who will hold Baba's hand. I never saw Baba refusing any kind of corporeal intimacy or corporeal service. Mothers and girls used to wash even his briefs.

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Re: Om Radhe cross-examined in Hyderabad Court 1938

Post by arjun » 28 Jul 2012

larena wrote:I saw in PBKs centers mothers and girls bathing Baba, massaging his body with oils, aloe, balms. They touched him all over his body and he stroked, caressed, fondled them. They competed among themselves to get more of his attention. I saw them feeding him and him feeding them. Baba has a special set of clothes, pillows, sheets and dishes in centers. Mothers and girls always treated him as a honorable guest - he received everything in a special way and of a special sort. Few time I saw them almost fighting for who will hold Baba's hand. I never saw Baba refusing any kind of corporeal intimacy or corporeal service. Mothers and girls used to wash even his briefs.
Sister larena,
There is nothing surprising in this. When this could happen during the times of Brahma Baba, then it could happen with the present medium as well. Such kind of behaviour cannot be avoided given the belief that Baba Virendra Dev Dixit is the medium of God. This is also a kind of Bhakti. In Murli classes I have seen myself Baba asking PBKs not to fan air when the electricity was off. Despite his directions PBKs would continue to fan air with their hands. It is only when Baba is inside the mini-Madhubans that the sisters can come close to him. Sisters are not allowed to come in physical contact with the brothers. So, it is but natural that they are at least allowed to touch Baba. If they are doing it in soul consciousness and thinking that they are serving ShivBaba then it is OK. Otherwise, it is just the rehearsal of Bhakti. As regards food, I have toured with him on a couple of occassions and whenever he used to eat with us he used to be served the same dish that was prepared for us and in the same utensils that were used to serve food for us. But it is possible that when he is fed separately they might cook something special for him considering the fact that Baba does not visit any particular mini-Madhubans very often. You have toured with him. Did you ever feel discriminated?
OGS,
Arjun

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Re: Om Radhe cross-examined in Hyderabad Court 1938

Post by arjun » 28 Jul 2012

152
“आज बाबा बच्ची से पूछ रहा था कि तुम जानती हो कि हम किसके रथ की सेवा कर रहे हैं। घोड़े की सम्भाल करने वाला समझेगा कि हम फलाने साहेब के घोड़े की सम्भाल कर रहे हैं। तुम भी जानते हो यह किसका रथ है। अगर शिवबाबा को याद कर तुम इस रथ की सेवा करो तो तुम बहुतों से अच्छा पद पा सकती हो। यह हुआ रथ, याद तो शिवबाबा को करना है।“ (ब्रह्माकुमारियों द्वारा प्रकाशित रिवाइज़्ड साकार मुरली दिनांक २९.१२.०७, पृ.२)

“Today Baba was asking daughter that – do you know whose Chariot are you serving? The one who takes care of horses would think that I am taking care of the horse of a particular master. You also know – whose Chariot is this. If you serve the Chariot while remembering ShivBaba then you can achieve a post higher than many. This is the Chariot; (but) one has to remember ShivBaba.” (Revised Sakar Murli dated 29.12.07, pg 2 published by BKs in Hindi, narrated by ShivBaba through Brahma Baba; translated by a PBK; the words within brackets in the English version have been added by the translator to clarify the meaning)


241
“...तुम आलमाइटी बाबा के ऊपर आशिक हो या उनके रथ पर? या दोनों पर? जरूर दोनों का आशिक होना पड़े। बुद्धि में यह रहेगा कि वह इस रथ में है। उनके कारण तुम इस पर आशिक हुए हो। शिव के मन्दिर में भी बैल रखा हुआ है। वह भी पूजा जाता है। कितनी गुह्य बातें हैं जो रोज़ नहीं सुनते तो कोई कोई प्वाइंट्स मिस कर देते हैं। रोज़ सुनने वाले कभी प्वाइंट्स में फेल नहीं होंगे।” (ब्रह्माकुमारियों द्वारा प्रकाशित रिवाइज़्ड साकार मुरली दिनांक २७.०२.०८, पृ. ३ एवं ४, जो मूल रूप से रात्रि क्लास, दिनांक २३.१२.५८ है)

“... Do you love the Almighty Baba or His Chariot? Or both? Definitely you have to love both. The intellect would remember that He is in this Chariot. You love this one because of Him. Even in the temple of Shiv a bull is placed. It is also worshipped. These are so deep matters. Those who do not listen everyday miss some points. Those who listen everyday will not fail in any point.” (Revised Sakar Murli dated 27.02.08, pg.3&4 published by BKs in Hindi, narrated by ShivBaba through Brahma Baba; translated by a PBK; the words within brackets in the English version have been added by the translator to clarify the meaning)

743
“बाप को याद कर बहुत खुशी में रहना है। मात-पिता से हमको बहुत सुख घनेरे मिलते हैं। यह ब्रह्मा कहेंगे ना – बाबा से हमें वर्सा मिलता है। बाबा ने हमारा रथ लोन लिया है। अब बाबा तो इस रथ की खातिरी करेंगे। पहले तो समझता था – मैं आत्मा इस रथ को खिलाता हूँ। यह भी रथ है ना। अब कहेंगे इनको वही खिलाने वाला है। इस रथ की सम्भाल करनी है। घोड़े पर साहेब लोग चढ़ते हैं तो घोड़े को हाथ से खिलायेंगे, कभी पीठ पर हाथ फेरेंगे। बहुत खातिरी करते हैं क्योंकि उन पर सवारी करते हैं। बाबा इस पर सवारी करते हैं तो क्या बाबा खातिरी नहीं करते होंगे? बाबा जब स्नान करते हैं तो समझते हैं हम भी स्नान करते हैं, बाबा को भी कराना है क्योंकि उसने भी इस रथ का लोन लिया है। शिवबाबा कहते हैं मैं भी तुम्हारे शरीर को स्नान कराता हूँ, खिलाता हूँ। मैं नहीं खाता हूँ, शरीर को खिलाता हूँ। बाबा खिलाते हैं, खाते नहीं हैं। यह सब किस्म-किस्म के ख्यालात चलते हैं – स्नान के समय, घूमने के समय। यह तो अनुभव की बात है ना।“(ब्रह्माकुमारियों द्वारा प्रकाशित रिवाइज़्ड साकार मुरली दिनांक २२.११.०८, पृ. ३)

“You should remain happy in the remembrance of the Father. We get a lot of happiness from the mother and the Father. This Brahma will say, will he not that – I get inheritance from Baba. Baba has taken my Chariot on loan. Well Baba will serve this Chariot. Earlier I used to think – I, a soul, feed this Chariot. This is also a Chariot, isn’t it? Now I will say – He is the one who feeds it. I have to take care of this Chariot. When Officers mount a horse, they feed it with their own hands; sometimes they feel its back with their hands. They take care (of the horse) a lot because they ride on them. Baba rides on this one; so doesn’t Baba take care (of this one)? When Baba takes bath, he feels – I also take bath and I have to bathe Baba as well because He has also taken this Chariot on loan. ShivBaba says – I also bathe your body, I feed it. I do not eat (myself), I feed the body. Baba feeds; He does not eat. These are the different kinds of thoughts that come to my mind while bathing, while taking a stroll. This is a matter of experience, isn’t it?”(Revised Sakar Murli dated 22.11.08, pg 3 published by BKs in Hindi, narrated by ShivBaba through Brahma Baba; translated by a PBK; the words within brackets in the English version have been added by the translator to clarify the meaning)

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Re: Om Radhe cross-examined in Hyderabad Court 1938

Post by Larena » 28 Jul 2012

You have toured with him. Did you ever feel discriminated?
Yes, I did. But as I said - many Indians who I met were lacking of empathy and lacking of sensitivity for other people's feeling. Probably you would never like to feel like I sometimes felt hearing their words. Many times I swollowed my own tears.

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Re: Om Radhe cross-examined in Hyderabad Court 1938

Post by arjun » 28 Jul 2012

Yes, I did. But as I said - many Indians who I met were lacking of empathy and lacking of sensitivity for other people's feeling. Probably you would never like to feel like I sometimes felt hearing their words. Many times I swollowed my own tears.
I am sorry for whatever happened with you in AIVV, but lack of empathy can happen anywhere in the world in any field. You will find people with different sanskars all over the world. Even in a family all the family members do not have the same sanskar. The best way is to forgive and forget.
OGS,
Arjun

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Re: Om Radhe cross-examined in Hyderabad Court 1938

Post by Larena » 29 Jul 2012

It is really strange imo that PBKs ask to forget and forgive them sth.

The entire teaching which Baba teaches he based on not only remembering what bad was done to him in BKs but also on spreading it all over the world and never ending strong criticism of BKs and the entire world. What about forgetting? Why did not he forget yet?

I have nothing to forgive and forget - whatever happened it happened. I think that the teacher of the world needs a great feeling, sensitivity, knowledge of the realities in other cultures, a great power of empathy and he should discriminate which words, expressions, behavior may be hurting, humiliating, offensive. India is not the entire world. The religions of the world present in India are different from their counterparts in other parts of the world.What in India is understood as good and acceptable, is not acceptable or even offensive or criminal in other parts of the world.

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fluffy bunny
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Re: Om Radhe cross-examined in Hyderabad Court 1938

Post by fluffy bunny » 29 Jul 2012

Can you start a new topic to discuss whatever it is you are discussing?

No one has mentioned Om Radhe cross-examined by the Hyderabad Court 1938.

warrior
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Re: Om Radhe cross-examined in Hyderabad Court 1938

Post by warrior » 11 Jun 2014

Radhe: “Judge Saheb, I will
not take a false oath under any
circumstances.”
THE WORLD RENEWAL FOR JUNE2014 ISSUE.pdf
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