Prajapati God Brahma

To discuss the BK and PBK versions of the factual Yagya history from the beginning.
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john
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Prajapati God Brahma

Post by john » 16 Aug 2006

It has been said in the early days of the Yagya Dada Lekhraj considered himself to be God. Can anyone throw more light onto this period ... how it started, how long it lasted, how did it end, etc?

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Post by arjun » 02 Nov 2006

Dear John Bhai,
Om Shanti. I don't have any concrete proof about Dada Lekhraj considering himself to be God, but the actions of the present Administrators of the BK Institution does cast some doubt over their intentions to either reveal the Supreme Soul Shiv as God or Dada Lekhraj Brahma as God.

I have heard from my friends living in Delhi that BKs are organizing a ten-day long World Peace Festival at a prime location of the Indian Capital. The BKs have put up hundreds of hoardings of various sizes throughout Delhi. But none of them contains the picture of either Trimurti Shiv or Brahma Baba. All the hoardings and boards depict the three Dadis prominently. Dadi Prakashmani's portrait being in the front, Dadi Janaki behind her and Dadi Gulzar's portrait in the last. The size of the portraits also decrease in the same order.

Such posters create a doubt in the minds of the general public about the faith of BKs. They cannot know whom the BKs consider as the God Father or his corporeal medium. Until recently they used to reveal the photographs of Late Dada Lekhraj (Brahma Baba) which at least gave an impression that he is the founder of the Institution. But the picture of the Trimurti Dadis does not convey anything. In fact it leads people to speculate if they are revealing themselves as Trimurti, i.e. Brahma, Vishnu and Shankar.

There are hundreds of Murlis which say that in every programme of service or service material, the word Trimurti Shiv should be invariably be included. All the focus should be on the picture of Trimurti, which shows the three divine acts of God. On the one side BKs say that the end of the world is nearing and on the other side instead of revealing Trimurti God Shiv, they are revealing only the Dadis.

And even if they wish to reveal the Dadis, it should be only Gulzar Dadiji because she is at least the medium through which the Avyakt Vanis are delivered. Who narrates the Avyakt Vanis is another issue. But if the BKs believe that God Shiv is narrating the AVs through Dadi Gulzar then they should give more prominence to her. Just as they used to or may be still reveal Brahma Baba as the corporeal medium of God Shiv, they should try to tell the world that God is playing His part through Dadi Gulzar. But relegating her to the background creates more confusion. When they don't want to reveal Gulzar Dadi as the medium of God then what is the rationale behind giving more publicity to the other two Dadis who are not even the chariots of Shiv? Moreover, there are numerous Murlis which state that keeping of Brahma's photo is against Shrimat. Then is it in accordance with Shrimat to reveal the pictures of the three Dadis?

Could any BK kindly clarify?

With regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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Post by arjun » 03 Nov 2006

Om Shanti. The views expressed by me in the above post should not be construed by the BKs as disrespect for the Dadis. I was only trying to present the contrast with regard to the Shrimat as given in the Sakar Murlis spoken by ShivBaba through Brahma Baba and the present actions of the administrators of the BK Institution. In order to substantiate my post I would like to quote a small Murli point, which has already been posted in the PBK section under the thread 'Murli points for churning'.

"Hamesha samjho ShivBaba kahtey hai; inka photo bhi nahi rakho. Yah rath toh loan liya hai. Yah bhi purusharthi hai, yah bhi kahtey hain mai Baba say varsa lay raha hoon." (BKs dwara prakaashit revised Sakar Murli taareekh 21.7.05, page 3)

"Always think that it is ShivBaba who is speaking. Do not keep even his photo. This Chariot has been taken on loan. He is also an effort-maker. He also says, 'I am obtaining the inheritance from Baba." (Revised Sakar Murli dated 21.07.05, page 3 published by BKs and narrated by Father Shiv through Brahma Baba)

With regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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Re: Brahma is God!

Post by fluffy bunny » 21 Mar 2007

John wrote:It has been said in the early days of the Yagya Dada Lekhraj considered himself to be God. Can anyone throw more light onto this period ... how it started, how long it lasted, how did it end, etc?

As late as 1942, Mama (Om Radhe aka Brahmakumari Saraswati) was asked;

Question:- "Who, then is superior - God or a human being?"

Her answer:-
Om Radhe wrote:"Doubtless, a Human Being! Who else cold ever reveal and manifest BRAHM, TATWA, BRAHMAND and the Divine Secrets of this entire Creative Play? Who could establish Bram-Puri (Angelic World) and lead other there but for a human being?"
Later she went on to say;
Om Radhe wrote:"I shall now divulge further upon the question of Superiority of a Human Being over God, and shall also discuss the question as to who laid the foundation of Brahm-Puri (Angelic World) - PRAJAPATI BRAHMA or SREE Krishna"
She talks about the;
Om Radhe wrote:"establishment of the one Original Eternal Religion of 'AHAM BRAHM ASMI'" by "DIVINE Father PRAJAPATI BRAHMA, THE Gita INVENTOR, THE IMPARTER OF IMPERISHABLE WISDOM AND THE BESTOWER OF DIVINE INSIGHT and NOT SREE Krishna!!!!!!"
And she states emphatically;
Om Radhe wrote:There is only one Divine Father, however, and that is Divine Father PRAJAPATI BRAHMA, the Gita INVENTOR, the Imparter of Imperishable Wisdom and the Bestower of Divine Insight, in whose case and in the case of whose Divine Ones, it can be said with certainty that all facts and figures of future Brahm-Puri (for the establishment of which they become instrumental) are foreknown to them through the power of their faith in "Aham Brahm Asmi" ( I am GOD ETERNAL and My Maya is also Eternal).

Similarly, the most Supreme Divine Father PRAJAPATI BRAHMA, the Gita INVENTOR and His Divine Ones, he founders oof the Brahman Deity Dynasty, alone possess full knowledge about all the other subservient Dynasties.
Lastly for just now, and this cross references to anotehr topic thread of rememberence, in answer to a question of whether self-unrealised Bharatvasis would rise from their slumber at all?
Om Radhe wrote:"Well, it can be said through Divine Insight that they certainly will, at least, but not till they breathe their last on their bed of Annihilation, as it happened a Kalpa ago; but then, it will be too late because Divine Father PRAJAPITA BRAHMA has himself ordained, "One who maintains constant contact with ME, and who, after due concentration of intellect upon SELF (MAN MANA BHAVA, MADHYAJI BHAVA), addresses himself entirely to the task of rendering the highest Divine Service under MY guidance, will ultimately enjoy along with ME for numerous generations the Sovereignity of Vaikunth or Brahma-Puri (Angelic World)"
She goes on about the "Divine Yagya of Divine Father, the Gita Author, Prajapita Brahma, the Imparter of Imperishable Wisdom and the Bestower of Divine Insight" and how he was the "BACKBONE" of the "Greatest War of all time" ... World War II.

Yup, they thought WW II was Destruction. Now, what is interesting is that all this stuff was written in Karachi, 1942. 6 years after Shiva allegedly possessed Lekhraj Kirpalani. So why is there no mention of Shiva? There is Infinite Divine Light but no Shiva.

Personally, on the basis of this evidence, I believe the whole beginning of the Yagya as put out by the Brahmakumaris ... IS A FABRICATION.

All quotations above are taken from the original English of Om Radhe (... what was her real name?), all the formatting, e.g. capitalisation and underlining, are approximately the same as the original.

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Post by john » 21 Mar 2007

Wow! What a revelation. Where, or what book, is the interview in?

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Post by fluffy bunny » 22 Mar 2007

Excuse the cross costing but it is unique and important to this thread. I also stuck this is the topic about Brahmakumari Saraswati / Mama.

The following is faithfully represented as originally typed by MATESHWARI Saraswati in 1942. The Brahmakumaris consider "Mama", or Om Radhe as she was known, to be the number 2 soul in the whole world. "Eve" to Lekhraj Kirpalani's "Adam". The first administrative head of the BKWSU who died on 24th June 1965 but, to quote BKWSU;
BKWSU wrote:her teachings continue to guide the institution
What is notable is threefold;
  • • the belief that Man is God, indeed "God's Father".
    • that God takes birth in all 4 ages of The Cycle
    • that the Brahmin religion is one of the 4 main religions
    • God is the Brahm element
    • Union is with the Brahm
By the date, this is in approximately 1942 ... 6 years later ... so what about the Divine revellation in 1936 of Shivoham, Shivoham? Something does not add up. I don't think we have been told about this ... (I may have made a Hindi typo. So native speakers, please point any out)
The BKWSU PR Machine wrote:She came into the fold during the early period of its inception. She was able to digest Godly Knowledge, revise and churn it very accurately and stood out from the rest. She had a very sharp intellect, which she mobilised in the service of God. Her original name was Radhe. She came to be known as Om Radhe. From the moment she first heard Godly Knowledge, she was overwhelmed, her mind began dancing with joy, which never stopped. Rather the spiritual intoxication grew stronger as years passed. She recognised instantly that all the sensual happiness, which the world had to offer was without taste or merit. She determined immediately to adopt a life of Yoga and devote herself to spiritual service. She wedded herself totally to God and practiced every word of Godly directions. Total dedication led to total transformation in her.

Mateshwari had a powerful personality. She seemed a veritable goddess because of her virtues. She was awesome in her demeanor yet discrete and merciful at the same time. Her memory was legendary. If she met a person once, she would recognise him/her even in a crowd or after several years. She had a soft and sweet voice and was distinguished singer. A special kind of divinity seemed to flow with her voice and her songs were balm to the heart.
Entitled "OM Geet" I believe this is one of her songs. Any information gratefully received.
Om Radhe herself wrote:*)OM.(*

GEET.

Nanush ka kya, martaba, kyun koi nahin samjhavata.
(What is man's sublimity, why none explains).

Ishwar khud ap manava, kyan koi nahin hai manta.
(Man himself is God. why no one believes).

Ishwar ka bap,manava, kyun koi nahin hai janta.
(Man is God's Father, why no one knows).

Manush tan adhar sen khud Ishwar hin bolta.
(God himself speaks with the help of a human form).

Bigar manava vairat srishti ka ant koi nahin kholta.
(Excepting man no one explains the mystery of Manifest Creation).

Ishwar kis ko nahin kabi marta jilavata.
(God never kills or vivifies anyone).

Ishwar khud manush tan lay onborta kabi charta.
(God himself takes the human form and again relinquishes it).

Sat, Treta, Dwapur, Kali-Yuga film la palta chakkar.
(Sat, \treta, Dwapur and Kali-Yuga are in the revolving wheel of the Creative Play).

Brahman, Kshetri, Vaishya, Shudra, nam khud hai dharvata.
(Brahman, Kshetriya, Vaishya and Shudra. God himself passes through these stages).

Veda Shastra, Granth, aur masjid, tikanay, marhi mandir.
(Vedas, Shastras, Granth, and mosques, temples, shrines and churches).

Manush kay ye karma sabh, kabi, pborta aur banavata.
(These are all man's actions, some times he makes hem and some times he breaks them).

Bigar kshetra swayam Brahm karta kabi kuchi bhi nahin.
(Without the Field or body, Brahm does not do anything).

Kshetra Kshetraya Yoga sen sabhi bolta aur nahin.
(Without the union of the Field and the Knower of the Field, all go abour and speak).

Brahm hun kahita hai manava, dharta nahin nij par iman.
("I am Brahm", says man, but has no faith in Self).

Moh nija Maya men phas khud hin ko hai bharmavata.
(Entangles in his own Creation, he himself becomes Atheistic).

Gyan bin mahutaji manava ki kabi jati nahin.
(Without Divine Wisdom, servitude of man never ends).

Aham Brahmasmi nischai Swaraj Pooran pavata.
(One attains Complete Self-Rule only through firm faith in "Aham Brahm Asmi").

Om Shanti
I know some senior BKs in my local zone center know this but I was never told. Am I making too much of a little mistake? If Brahmakumari teachings evolve to separate God from the Brahm, and we give then the allowance to evolve then ...

When did it happen and when did they go back and re-write their history?

If they re-wrote their history, under whose instruction and influence?

If they did it once ... and once to cover up 1976 Destruction ... and once to cover up that they thought WWII was Destruction ... and once to fluff over the 40, 50, 60 years predictions ... how many more times have their re-written their history and philosophy over such minor issues?

Oh, and do not mention that big financial donation that bailed them out in 1950 when the coffers ran dry because they don't accept financial donations from non-BKs ... like they do not accept government grants now.

Image
© Copyright liberated from the BKWSU for God's deserving children.

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Post by abrahma kumar » 22 Mar 2007

Thanks Ex-I. What a bombshell.

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Post by arjun » 22 Mar 2007

ex-l wrote:© Copyright liberated from the BKWSU for God's deserving children.
Abrahmakumar, that is really a bombshell. I will have to see the actual publication to make myself believe it. God help me obtain a copy!

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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Post by fluffy bunny » 22 Mar 2007

arjun wrote:Abrahmakumar, that is really a bombshell. I will have to see the actual publication to make myself believe it. God help me obtain a copy!
Excuse the low resolution images, this page will take a long time for some to load but here is a taster for you;

Image

Image

This is interesting because is it Om Radhe in 1943

Image

But believe me ... God or no God willing ... the atma bombs are on their way.

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Union with Brahm

Post by proy » 23 Mar 2007

ex-l wrote:
But this is exactly the opposite of what is taught now!

I was told that only the Buddhists believe in union with the Brahm, and that God is separate for eternity from other souls according to BK doctrine. It seems the BKs started off being very similar to the Buddhists in their beliefs. The belief that God is the Brahm is perhaps more similar to pagan belief.

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weathercocks

Post by alladin » 23 Mar 2007

What a mess, they made!

As someone said somewhere on the Forum, façades change according to the situation, definitions also "we are Hindu" - in Indonesia (otherwise, if they claimed to be a sect or nothing, they'd be kicked out, jailed or even hanged), "we are not a religion", with the UN, "we are some kind of spiritual something" at interfaith conventions ... And saying that God Shiva incarnated and speaks through a medium, was probably more acceptable by a majority Hindu society, than claiming that Dada Lekraj was God and the Gita Sermonizer. Difficult to pull well known and established deities like Krishna or Shiva off the throne.

So, it's all confusing, but for sure they love changing things around an apparently haven't got caught or punished seriously. They go with the wind. Weathercocks. That's the flying stage! Or call it ... flexibility :roll:.

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Post by tinydot » 23 Mar 2007

It is amazing how these original documents were kept from the public. But as the saying goes, "The truth will always come out".

ex-l, how did you obtain these documents? Are there more we have yet to find out?

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Post by fluffy bunny » 23 Mar 2007

tinydot wrote:ex-l, how did you obtain these documents? Are there more we have yet to find out?

I do not mind saying this in public, as it could be witness to any statement at a further date. I do not wish to expose my sources right now until I am sure that I can get copies of everything. And yes, as said, these are just the tip of the iceberg.

I do not want them to "disappear" again like other evidence has "disappeared" in the past.

[I will be happy to sign a witness statement with my name on it to say that the Brahmakumaris or the BKWSU or associates of the BKWSU manipulate the media, applying subtle and unsubtle force (including lies, personal attacks and bribes) to block or remove items or individuals that they consider are "unhelpful" and deceive non-BKs about the nature of the multifold BKWSU organizations. Incidents or items we, as experienced ex-associates, would consider to be "honest and objective documentation". Well, it would appear that they have not covered their trails well enough and right now.]

Funnily enough, I can imagine that rank BKs will just ignore all this and that the Kirpalani Klan will deliver some one liner, "Ah. Oh, yes ... we forgot about that", that dismisses them all and re-affirms the current party line, probably placing individual BKs in a position to test their faith with Baba. An us or them threat. At present, I have not studied enough to see what it going on.
  • All I want to know from an official point of view is why was Brahma called God and why is there no mention of "Shiva" or Shiva Baba as late as 1949 as far as I can see?

    Was it kept a secret? Was it too terrible to tell the public?

    Why was Brahma called the Inventor of the Gita? And why, if Shiva was revealled ... when ever and by who ever it was ... did it take them so long to realise him?
I will stand corrected if other physical evidence is shown to me. But so far, this entirely contradicts what we have been told. And I am 99% sure that others within the organization know about all this too. So why have they kept mum?

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Post by arjun » 24 Mar 2007

ex-l wrote:Excuse the low resolution images, this page will take a long time for some to load but here is a taster for you;
Thanks for uploading more proofs. That is really wonderful.
ex-l wrote:I do not want them to "disappear" again like other evidence has "disappeared" in the past.
I understand. And that is why, I have been appealing to all the members/readers/visitors to preserve all the proofs related to BKWSU in the form of Murlis, Avyakt Vanis, literature, pictures, audio-visual material, etc.
ex-l wrote:• All I want to know from an official point of view is why was Brahma called God and why is there no mention of "Shiva" or Shiva Baba as late as 1949 as far as I can see? Was it kept a secret? Was it too terrible to tell the public? Why was Brahma called the Inventor of the Gita? And why, if Shiva was revealled ... when ever and by who ever it was ... did it take them so long to realise him?
Yes, BKWSU will definitely have to come up with an answer. This is what ShivBaba (through Baba Virendra Dev Dixit) and we PBKs have been asking and telling since many years that God of Gita (Gita ka bhagwaan) is not the soul of Krishna (Dada Lekhraj Brahma) but Shiv Shankar Bholeynath. I once sent an article on this topic to all BK centers through email and instead of giving a reply, a couple of them sent abuses. Now our view stands vindicated to some extent.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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Bholanath

Post by alladin » 24 Mar 2007

So, is there still the hope that Supreme Soul Shiva is behind Raja Yoga somehow? Would it be appropriate to clarify on this or other topic Bholanath's personality and role? thanks, namaste

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