Prajapati God Brahma

To discuss the BK and PBK versions of the factual Yagya history from the beginning.
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alladin
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Bholanath

Post by alladin » 24 Mar 2007

Hi, thanks for your contributions. All these scoops on the Forum are very precious and shocking, sometimes a bit hard to follow what's going on, what happened, how it started. And really I haven't had the time to read everything about PBKs who you are how you split, etc..

I am just starting to make out some meaning. But my attenion was drawn in particular by your mail regarding Bholanath etc. The most painful thing for a BK is accepting that we've been fooled and that a so called spiritual organisation ripped our time, energy, money and careers off whilst there was no God behind it.

All these criss-cross interferences, mediums and spooks. What's the story really?

I always had a feeling and felt a special connection with Shiva Natraj image, and also Bholanath, because of the innocence and being a protector of those who have a clean heart and are downtrodden (my Robin Hood sanskar!). On top of that, my special appreciation for Vedantibhen and her love for Bholanath. Any comments on how all of this connects or might make sense?

Is God somewhere looking after us, or will we end up becoming atheist and try to change the world by political means rather than spiritual? Thanks in advance if you find the time to answer me.

Om Shanti and Namaste

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Post by bansy » 24 Mar 2007

arjun wrote:I have been appealing to all the members/readers/visitors to preserve all the proofs related to BKWSU in the form of Murlis, Avyakt Vanis, literature, pictures, audio-visual material, etc.
Yes, it is a shame that we have come to distrust everything.

Whilst I am happy to read about historical and archived documents (actually all documents are "historical"), for me the Murli/Vani is supposed to be present. i.e God is speaking to me now, this minute, this second. Because of the impracticability of God incarnating in only one place, most of us are left to study with whatever material He has spoken about. What is no better than the Murlis spoken by the Divine, and applying it (dharna) to current life.

So it perturbs me to find that we are to study from BK Murlis that are "amended or "revised" (if you can get hold of them in the first place). Some how, I think the documents uncovered in this forum are just a tip of the iceberg, there are plenty of God's hidden secrets one is left to ponder.

The BKWSU seems to have the deep-rooted sanskar of changing things as it pleases. And hence the distrust.
alladin wrote:Hi, thanks for your contributions. All these scoops on the Forum are very precious and shocking, sometimes a bit hard to follow what's going on, what happened, how it started.
You are not alone in this.

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Re: Bholanath

Post by john » 24 Mar 2007

Is God somewhere looking after us or will we end up becoming atheist and try to change the world by political means rather than spiritual? Thanks in advance if u find the time to answer me.Om Shanti+namaste
Alladin
I believe (through experience) that only an understanding of truth can provide a solid foundation for life, anything less is liable to crack and disentegrate at any point and leave us in freefall.

So I say do not become disheartened by these revelations or 'scoops', but see it as part of the drama that has to be revealed to get to the core of what is the truth.

Hopefully you will be able to find your platform of truth and stand firm.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 24 Mar 2007

bansy wrote:The BKWSU seems to have the deep-rooted sanskar of changing things as it pleases. And hence the distrust.
Your distrust is utterly valid. If you left the BKWSU because of an intuition of distrust, that these leaders were not people to trust, that they have been perpetuating lie after lie for at least 50 years ... then you should not fear. You were absolutely correct to do what you did and leave. God is with you.

Before you listened to the lesson, would you not check out the credentials of the teachers?

If the teacher told one lie, two lies, three lies ... or plainly, by the organization's own published materials, was shown to be contradicting its own history, would you listen any further to that teacher?

I do not accuse the vaste body of BKs, because they are just good people repeating what they have been told. But my finger is point right back at those like Jayanti and Janki Kirpalani that must surely know and my eyes are looking for the published evidence from the organization to explain these complete and utter contradictions.

What I expect these leaders to do is quickly publish some sort of explanation, make some statements in order to maintain their status and position. But I, personally, am very determined, for the years of my life that I gave up to their lie and the other people whose lives I tangled up in their net, to find out the truth of all this. It deeply questions their self-professed authority.

... watch this space.

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Post by joel » 25 Mar 2007

ex-l wrote:Your distrust is utterly valid. If you left the BKWSU because of an intuition of distrust, that these leaders were not people to trust, that they have been perpetuating lie after lie for at least 50 years ... then you should not fear. You were absolutely correct to do what you did and leave. God is with you.
The Murlis do not hide the process of the BKs modifying their cosmology. The Sakar Murlis, in particular, are full of lines such as "the knowledge is not complete. Everyday new points continue to emerge. Previously you believed the soul was shaped like a thumb."

What is questionable is hiding the process of the organization re-creating itself. At the higher levels of the group, Seniors frankly discuss how the group should present itself. I think it's prudish to edit out a line such as "Shiv Baba would never mount a virgin" in a Sakar Murli, or Dadi Gulzar describing a vision where she walks through a scene like the interior of Fredrick's of Holywood (a lingerie store): "I saw strange undergarments, red things, black things, things I've never seen in my whole life" (from memory).

But is it surprising that those who feel that they have been entrusted with their responsibilities by God would confidently excise those elements that in their judgment would not serve to the benefit of the organization, to the furthering of God's work, in their assessment?

It would be a different organization if teachers would admit fallability. Perhaps by nature all organizations tend to present themselves in glowing terms. In my wider view, it is similar to a person grooming herself fastidiously before appearing on TV, or keeping their car clean inside and out. Most humans prefer not to air their dirtiest laundry in front of others who would use such laundry as a basis for forming an opinion about the laundry's owner.

Only those few groups that do not intend to grow to large-scale movements--AA and the other 12-step groups come to mind--are able to allow each participant to reveal themselves in their full weakness and vulnerability.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 25 Mar 2007

joel wrote:or Dadi Gulzar describing a vision where she walks through a scene like the interior of Fredrick's of Holywood (a lingerie store): "I saw strange undergarments, red things, black things, things I've never seen in my whole life" (from memory).

Woah ... this is off topic but do you have a date or the rest of the context for that!?! Gulzar astral travelling in Fredrick's of Hollywood?
As it has been pointed out, we do not know what the Murlis reveal or when because a) 28 years or more have disappeared, b) they are being re-written and edited out and c) they have been subjected to local translation. This was one of the reason why many of the original Double Foreigners learnt Hindi ... because the translation was so hit, miss and fast-forward, censored, cut-and-edit by the Dadis and Didis.

I do however feel that any organization presenting itself as a University ought to subject itself to universally accepted standards of academia, by which I mean, maintaining an open archive of previously published material and publish their material in the public domain.

Any entity presenting itself as God's own University, or selling spiritual growth, ought to have even higher standards and not engage in outright propaganda. It ought be an example of spiritual growth within with mistakes and the making of mistake are admitted and discuss.

When it comes to something as fundamental as covering up perhaps 18 years (Pre-1950) of thinking a human is God and no obvious mention of Shiva, (and may be 38 years since 1969), do you think we have a right to an answer why it is presenting an entirely different and potentially fictional story to the general public?

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Post by joel » 25 Mar 2007

ex-l wrote:Woah ... this is off topic but do you have a date or the rest of the context for that!?! Gulzar astral travelling in Fredrick's of Hollywood? [...] When it comes to something as fundamental as covering up perhaps 18 years (Pre-1950) of thinking a human is God and no obvious mention of Shiva, (and may be 38 years since 1969), do you think we have a right to an answer why it is presenting an entirely different and potentially fictional story to the general public?
I don't have a date for that trance message, but it was otherwise typical, with Baba's children getting distracted in various rooms (another had jewellery, gold silver, another delicious food) when they all should have been responding to Baba's call, running to his Lap.

By the way, it was I who characterized the scene as Fredrick's, not Dadi Gulzar.

Do we have a right to an answer for anything? You have the right to demand an answer. Every religion reinvents itself, conceals its past, presents itself as eternally unchanging. I think we can and do answer our questions for ourselves. Sorry it took you a few years that you might have spent in other more fulfilling ways.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 25 Mar 2007

joel wrote:Every religion reinvents itself, conceals its past, presents itself as eternally unchanging. I think we can and do answer our questions for ourselves. Sorry it took you a few years that you might have spent in other more fulfilling ways.
Thanks. I did not think the BKWSU was a religion. I really believe them when they said it was a Spiritual University. I was looking for God and to change the world.

One has a right to ask ... unfortunately it never guaranteed a comprehendible answer. I gave up asking a long time before I left. It was a waste of time. I thought the Dadis were pretty dumb really. I discovered now they are dishonest too. That's a bad combination but as long as they stick to politics and the media they should be alright.

I hope a BK comes forward and answers what all this God Brahma stuff is about. I hope the SS clean up their act. I hope I can save some other kids from throwing away the best years of their life.

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Post by tinydot » 25 Mar 2007

ex-l wrote:I hope a BK comes forward and answers what all this God Brahma stuff is about. I hope the SS clean up their act. I hope I can save some other kids from throwing away the best years of their life.
That's a noble task and duty. And come to think of it, here, we don't charge or accept a single penny!!!

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Post by alladin » 25 Mar 2007

ex-l wrote:Thanks. I did not think the BKWSU was a religion. I really believe them when they said it was a Spiritual University. I was looking for God and to change the world.
Same with me, and for many of us, if not all. "Spiritual University"! It's not our mistake, they are professionals, we were young and/or vulnerable, they know how to wrap themselves up.

We avoided other sects and gurus, and the BKs are good at presenting themselves as different ( offer you a privileged lane to reach God with no human in between, no money charged for courses, no luxory shown off ...)? Everything is more subtle, not so obvious (no flashy Cadillac, big mansions or orange clothed gurus), and once you are entangled it takes time to realise and extricate yourself out of the web. It's sticky and designed for keeping you there.

If the BKs leaders lost their moral compass, it's their problem. Every one has his own ethics. Not just from the Forum, but also personally, I will also warn when I have the opportunity, especially new young BK as tactfully and respectfully as possible, at least about the career and lolik studies side. Like a parent would, not to neglect it. You may end up being a bum or a bag lady one day and nobody in the Yagya will take care of you if you are ill or broke. It will be "your karma". It's a strong way to put it " throwing away the best years of their lives", but it's a recurrent, bitter remark made by many of us. Being wise after the event. Including the ones who have been so drained and depressed that they wouldn't even come onto this Forum.

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Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: It has been over a year that I left the center but still there is a lot of pain in my heart...pain caused by deception. I went in looking to come into grips with my own sense of self and came out with no faith at all. The experience was so bad at times that now I am clear there is no such a god. For that I am grateful. Yet, there were other moments that I would not change for the best of my experiences. I experienced love as I had never imagined! It was a beautiful experience of forbidden love.

Re: Bholanath

Post by driedexbk » 25 Mar 2007

John wrote:I believe (through experience) that only an understanding of truth can provide a solid foundation for life, anything less is liable to crack and disentegrate at any point and leave us in freefall.

So I say do not become disheartened by these revelations or 'scoops', but see it as part of the drama that has to be revealed to get to the core of what is the truth. Hopefully you will be able to find your platform of truth and stand firm.
Alladin, please allow me to respond to your question. God does not have eyes to look ... od is not somewhere. This statement makes me an atheist. However, just because I am an Gatheist that does not make me deplorably unspiritual to help in trying to make this world a much better place in which to live and enjoy in communion with streams of the living and the environment.

John, I recognize the full worth of your kind, gentle and wise words. Thank you.

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Shiva spoke, brhama spoke, mediums...

Post by alladin » 26 Mar 2007

I think this stories about Brahma, Shiva, Mama, the Cycle, how all of this got revised and mixed up are exhausting! But it is a necessary work for myself to read and try to understand more, part of the Path of searching for the Truth and Socratic knowing one self. Also the price to pay to bail myself out of BK-ism.

Anyway, if I just stretch my lazy hand and get a couple of books from the shelf, I can easily read, and any body can, statements that cross checked with the archive information people are gathering and sharing on the Forum, don't match. Example: book on "Specialities of Brahma Baba", page 31 : "Baba says: child this body is not mine, I have given it to Baba on loan, Baba himself will look after it . This is the horse of Hussein, relationships, myself, all belong to Shiva Baba "

The rather thick, bible type book written by senior - may he rest in peace! - spokesman of the Yagya, Jagdish Bhai, "Adi Dev", gives what I suppose is the official and detailed version about how the BK org started and developed. Apart from the celebration of it and presenting it as a victim of anti party etc ... I am reading at page 43, "Who's speaking to Dada? It was the Highest of the High. I had witnessed the entrance of the Supreme Father, Supreme Soul Shive, into the body of Dada." And page 49, "When Shiva entered Dada's body, he renamed that soul whose Chariot he now shared, with the name of Prajapita Brahma. All those who heard the knowledge which Shiva spoke trough Brahma's mouth, became the mouth born progeny, or Brahmins."

I don't feel like reading it all again, I just opened a couple of pages. This is the version we learnt and taught. Apart from what the SS might explain/admit to us, people and documents on the Forum, are gradually making some clarity and sensible hypothesis about what was said, hidden or mixed up, what really happened, etc ... I am at the moment a bit sickened by all these medium channellig, "Who is Who", who's speaking through ...

I watched the movie "300" about the epic Thermopylae battle between Spartans and Persians, and apart from any other comment, a statement at the end struck me: a rational minded Greek hero, says, " well, we fought (Eastern) mysticism and tyranny to defend our freedom". I used to be drawn by "mysticism", meditation and so on. But I see now how these attractive things can become a trap just as dangerous as the rational analytical Western mind.

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Re: Shiva spoke, brahma spoke, mediums...

Post by fluffy bunny » 26 Mar 2007

alladin wrote:The rather thick, bible type book written by senior - may he rest in peace! - spokesman of the Yagya, Jagdish Bhai, "Adi Dev", gives what I suppose is the official and detailed version about how the BK organisation started and developed. Apart from the celebration of it and presenting it as a victim of anti party etc ... I am reading at page 43, "Who's speaking to Dada? It was the Highest of the High. I had witnessed the entrance of the Supreme Father, Supreme Soul Shiva, into the body of Dada." And page 49, "When Shiva entered Dada's body, he renamed that soul whose Chariot he now shared, with the name of Prajapita Brahma. All those who heard the knowledge which Shiva spoke trough Brahma's mouth, became the mouth born progeny, or Brahmins."
If we examine the differences;
  • It appears that through the 30s and 40s they called themselves 'Brahman' not Brahmin. It is clearly marked 'Brahman Dynasty'. Their relationship was with the Brahm and Brahmand. - when the caste elevation came, it is not clear yet but my guess it was a simple poetic, sidestepping re-write.

    It was Prajapati (husband of subjects) - not Prajapita (Father of subjects). Note, the English translation of this is given as 'Father of Humanity'. Perhaps a native hidi speaker could comment on the difference of meaning here.

    There is no mention of Shiva at the beginning, just 'our Om Baba' for Lekhraj Kirpalani

    There was no mention of Atomic bombs in the beginning - it was just gas, bombs and armaments.
alladin wrote:"we fought (Eastern) mysticism and tyranny to defend our freedom". I used to be drawn by "mysticism", meditation and so on. But I see now how these attractive things can become a trap just as dangerous as the rational analytical Western mind.
To quote the The Daily Gazette - May 11 1939 commenting about the 'theatrical' Om Mandli affair;
As far back as a century ago Macaulay said in the House of Commons that the British Rule in India proclaimed the triumph of reason over barbarism. The whole trend of British policy through the intervenng years has been to make liberalism broaden down from precendent to precedent inthe law and constitution of this country
It would appear that it was British justice, and British judges, that saved the group in the early days but it is also stated that The Daily Gazette had;
taken exception to some of the methods employed by Dada Lekhraj and his Mandli ... [and] recognised that the sentiments and susceptibilities of the Bhaibund community are entitled to receive due consideration from the Government and the public.
So there was more controversy going on that the BKs like to present relating to the issues of children and trance, Lekhraj Kirpalani "stealing wives" and children and not sending them back home. (He was made to).

The thing is, what we have proven here is that the BKWSU version is plainly not true. It is garbage. And it is bad enough beng caught serving up garbage but not responding, or responding negative to being caught out for serving up garbage, is ten times worse.

So what is left and what was the truth? ... only time will reveal. I think any active or ex-BK ought demand an official explanation. I suppose they could get away with it by saying, "Oh, we were stupid but when we looked back we realised what was really going on and revised it" ... but that is not enough. It is also not entirely true. They have gone out of their way to delude us.

May be they just hid the Shiv/channelling/mediumship issue but my reading of it is that had no awareness ... so when did those arise?

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Post by alladin » 27 Mar 2007

Some thoughts I post in here, but might also fit into the topics "why I joined or left the BKorg".

To me, and I guess to others, the question "is God himself behind the Bk org or not", is important because believing in it made and makes quite a difference. Better if I speak for myself, only for God's sake would I swallow such bitter pills, bend, condescend and tolerate behing pushed around by God's emissaries!

Eating all that **** and making the effort to understand, believe and implement things that were non-sensical or contrary to some of my principles (human rights, democracy). If I hadn't believed in it, my commitment and dedication would have been 1/10 of what actually was. I gave $ for God's bhandara, trusting that it 'd be used in God's task. The center did not supposedly belong to its residents, it was God's, therefore I expected it to be run as our family home. We helped with muscles and intellect in God's tasks. If I disregarded business commitments, refused a good but demanding job, etc ... it's because I wanted to put Baba first, not a Guru or a spook first. Nor please a SS. The significance is different, the level of obedience, accordingly.

I can still stay on a spiritual path and search for my own truth and try to improve my character even taking God out of the picture, but the feeling of having been had, fooled , manipulated, lied to, is a bitter one and I want to get rid of it totally and quickly, because it can slow down my personal progress.

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God Men

Post by proy » 27 Mar 2007

alladin wrote:We avoided other sects and gurus,
This rings a lot of bells for me, alladin. I lost some good friends to the Sai Baba sect. Sai Baba actually claims that he IS God. This rang the warning bells for me, and I saw through what he is doing. The conjuring tricks, sex abuse, and financial irregularities are all documented by his ex followers on their own web site.

It seems, from the documentary evidence that is now being published on this forum, that the BKs originally believed Lehkraj was God himself, just in the same way that Sai Baba devotees believe about their guru now. Since then the legends and stories have been changed, falsified, and edited to claim that he was only channeling God (but not God Shiva, as he was not mentioned).

Maybe that explains two things that are currently happening. Firstly, Gulzar is only channeling Lehkraj as the PBKs say, and; secondly, it explains why the BKs themselves are so tied up in Bhakti worship of Lehkraj with pictures of him in all the centres and in every room at Madhuban.

Maybe the Seniors still secretly believe that Lehkraj is God?

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