Prajapati God Brahma

To discuss the BK and PBK versions of the factual Yagya history from the beginning.
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adikarisoul
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Re: God Men

Post by adikarisoul » 27 Mar 2007

proy wrote:Maybe that explains two things that are currently happening. Firstly, Gulzar is only channeling Lehkraj, as the PBKs say, and secondly, it explains why the BKs themselves are so tied up in Bhakti worship of Lehkraj, with pictures of him in all the centres and in every room at Madhuban. Maybe the Seniors still secretly believe that Lehkraj is God?
I think they do. :shock:

And one cannot believe how happy I am now that I can "openly say" that I never liked all those Brahma's pictures hanging around the center nor did I like meditating in front of Brahma's picture :oops:. I just couldn't get any experience by staring at the image of someone I considered just a human being!! Yes, I feel respect for him and for his teachings but I never ever considered him more inspiring than Shiv'Baba.

Especially in the last period of my BK life, I was sick of noticing that everywhere Brahma's pictures were becoming bigger and bigger ... and omnipresent. While Shiv'Baba had disappeared from the majority of meditation rooms. And even in the bedrooms of so many sisters, I could just see 2-3 Brahmas around their bed and of course no Shiva ...

In Oxford a few months ago, in the rooms where we were having Murli class and even Rakhi, there was just a huge Brahma and NO Shiva AT ALL!! Only now I am starting to understand why... :cry: If they had told me at the beginning that they considered Brahma to be God, I WOULD HAVE NEVER JOINED THE BKs.

Adikari

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fluffy bunny
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Re: God Men

Post by fluffy bunny » 27 Mar 2007

adikarisoul wrote:In Oxford a few months ago, in the rooms where we were having Murli class and even Rakhi, there was just a huge Brahma and NO Shiva AT ALL!! Only now I am starting to understand why... :cry:
I think the final piece o the puzzle will come if we can confirm who Dadi Janki is and what her date of birth is.

If - and I state if because it is conjecture right now - she is 13 year old "Janki Metharam Kripalani of 13 Saraswati Lane" then she must have "left Gyan" to have sex and a child. This seems a little hard to believe to me for me right now but otherwise I would need an explanation where she was when the list of names was made in 1938/9. We know she was a relative of Lekhraj Kirpalani and they say she joined in 1937.

Now, we do know that she was the one that brought the pictures of Lekhraj Kirpalani into the West against the Shrimat of the Murlis. An issue that has never been addressed. If I was to play amateur psychologist, could it have been that she left Gyan, had a kid, came back late (we know she came back late and was therfore always making extra efforts) and then doubly sunk her psychology into Lekhraj Kirpalani/BB?

My guess is that if the Seniors were promoting him in 1949/50, from their childhood and age of independence onwards, then they still do remember 'Prajapati God Brahma'.

I would just like to read the records of the discussions that such an august and virtuous body must have had and made before deciding to change their name and their theodicy; introduce God Shiva and change Brahma from Prajapati, the 'husband of the subjects', to Prajapita, the 'Father of the subjects'.

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Re: God Men

Post by john » 27 Mar 2007

If - and I state if because it is conjecture right now - she is 13 year old "Janki Metharam Kripalani of 13 Saraswati Lane" then she must have "left Gyan" to have sex and a child. This seems a little hard to believe to me for me right now but otherwise I would need an explanation where she was when the list of names was made in 1938/9. We know she was a relative of Dada Lekhraj and they say she joined in 1937.
According to 'Peace and Purity' by Liz Hodgkinson;
  • Janki was born in 1916
    She married in 1937
    She had a child a son who only lived for 4 months
    She joined the Yagya properly 1939.

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Re: God Men

Post by fluffy bunny » 27 Mar 2007

ex-l wrote:We know she was a relative of Dada Lekhraj and they say she joined in 1937.
John wrote:According to 'Peace and Purity' by Liz Hodgkinson;
  • Janki was born in 1916
    She married in 1937
    She had a child a son who only lived for 4 months
    She joined the Yagya properly 1939.
Image
You are going to love this about our "world renowned spiritual leader"; "With an unrelenting search for honesty and cleanliness in her relationship with God as the cornerstone of her life of service, so that her being as well as words should reveal the Divine, Dadi Janki developed an inspiring vision of the unique potential of every human being. This has enabled her to become a highly effective spiritual entrepreneur."

The entrepreneur bit, yes, she know how to pull in the money, "honesty and cleanliness in her relationship with God?", would that be with God Brahma or God Shiva? Would not it be better to have honesty in one's relationship with individuals or humanity?

"Dadi Janki is always living in the absolute. She has no breakdown between her abstract and her concrete, no matter where she moves. I have never seen such a tiny lady… with guts like a million elephants put together". Alfredo Sfeir Younis - Senior Adviser, The World Bank.

"A simple but profound message, most urgently needed today". Ursula King - Professor and Head of Department in the Department of Theology and Religious Studies, University of Bristol, UK.

"To me, this woman is as deep, wise and egoless as it gets. She adheres to no formal religion, dogma or sect. Merely teaches you a method to open the heart and detach the mind – which to me is what spirituality is about". Ruby Wax - actress/commedian.

Dadi Janki is one of the great spiritual leaders of our age." Dr. Peter Fenwick, past Chairman of the Scientific and Medical Network, Chairman of the Research Committee for the Foundation for Integrated Medicine, expert witness for more than 20 years.
CompanionofGod website wrote:Dadi Janki has pioneered, exemplified and shared with countless numbers of people a structured and disciplined method of spiritual development that has had a profound impact on the lives of millions across the world.

As a founding member of the Brahma Kumaris World Spiritual University, joining in 1937 at the age of 21, she became one of India's first female spiritual leaders. Transcending established norms of religion, society and culture, she took universal spiritual truths, worked with them in the laboratory of her own life, and translated them into practical tools for improving the human condition.

With an unrelenting search for honesty and cleanliness in her relationship with God as the cornerstone of her life of service, so that her being as well as words should reveal the Divine, Dadi Janki developed an inspiring vision of the unique potential of every human being. This has enabled her to become a highly effective spiritual entrepreneur.

Since 1974, when she left India for the first time to base herself in London, England, she has overseen the establishment of centers teaching meditation and spirituality in 84 countries.

Now aged 90, she still travels extensively, enabling leaders from the worlds of politics, religion, medicine, science, education, psychology and other fields, as well as individuals at every level of society, to absorb spiritual strength by renewing their own link with God.
  • 1951 - 1974 One of few women spiritual leaders in India (and the world), establishing teaching centres across the length and breadth of that country.
    1974 - present. Overseeing the expansion of the work of the Spiritual University into 84 countries.
    1983 Appointed Co-administrative Head of the BKWSU.
    1986 Launched the ‘Million Minutes of Peace Appeal’, the largest non-fundraising project for the United Nations’ ‘International Year of Peace’.

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Post by alladin » 28 Mar 2007

European mountain cowherd ancient wisdom: "The one who praises himself, soils his own clothes and crowns himself with dried dung."

So, all this impressive self celebrating quotations from
entrepreneur Alfredo Sfeir Younis - Senior Adviser, The World Bank.
Ursula King - Professor and Head of Department in the Department of Theology and Religious Studies, University of Bristol, UK
Ruby Wax - actress/commedian.
Dr. Peter Fenwick, past Chairman of the Scientific and Medical Network, Chairman of the Research Committee for the Foundation for Integrated Medicine, expert witness for more than 20 years.
In fact, you may turn the trees from forests into pens and the ocean into ink and still it would not be enough to describe the qualities of lecturers and oracles of the BKWSU. I am maybe an idealist but Baba himself says that just our dharna and vibrations should inspire people to flock in. Attracting through our high spiritual consciousness is not the "right method", not enough with the Almighty behind it, that we have to more and more resort to the power and system of Ravan Age advertising?

More than a hearsay or a sporadic contact, what counts are the vibes and the actions of all these heroes (I mean not just Dadi Jankiji). I reasonably think that people who spent years living side by side, travelling, co-operating, tending the SS, obeying orders, trying to emulate or please them and following their suggestions, may have better grounded opinions than academics and VIP characters with magnificent and high sounding names and positions. Mutual boasting of titles! Sounds royal? Very classy ... in the manner of cheap parvenues!

Very spiritual, humble and more than anything New! We had never seen that in Kaliyug, have we?

We should contact whoever is in charge of preparing Dadi's C/V and biodata next time we go for a job interview, must be a talented person!

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Post by alladin » 28 Mar 2007

My previous post was a reaction to what I just read before mine.

To balance out my sarcasm, let me share something out of the chorus. It's true that Shiva Baba constantly reminds us that we shouldn't worship humans and human forms, nor keep their pictures. In many centers, every corner has a gallery of favourite deceased or alive BKs photos chosen according to the room. If it is a kitchen, it will be some image of BB cooking. In the office, bedroom, anywhere else, wher ever appropriate and in meditation rooms; portraits of BB. It's not Shrimat. It's ridiculous, and if someone has a foible i.e., Dadi Gulzar or whoever, she could keep her photo in the wallet or in private quarters. In order not to incourage guru worship with new students or dependency on any instrument.

Saying that, either because of past time connections, a subtle one or due to the beautiful stories I have heard about BB, especially in the beginning (maybe now they are also out of fashion and many of the old Dadis who knew him have left the body), I love BB and always felt close to him. So to me, personally, it doesn't disturb me nor distracts me seeing his photos here and there. Those stories I heard narrated how he was a broadminded, innovative and modern, humble, warm and empathic compassionate person, loved all creatures and nature. Should different descriptions of his personality come up, I am ready to listen but for now, I still like to see him as a special companion and keep a photo of him, the "Bholanath "one, with the turban.

And even if he was a "fanatic" or a visionary, he set an example for simplicity and not licking the feet of VIPS.
  • About BB pictures.
I was just thinking today that in the Sakar Murli, Baba recurrently gives the direction that we should not keep pictures of the old boot corporeal medium, and we should make the effort to overcome the Bhakti habit of worshipping human forms and Bhakti images, concentrating instead on the incorporeal Supreme Soul and taking support from Him only. That is pretty clear, every other day Baba repeats that. So, who started infringing this rule? I guess Seniors, then, everybody else followed.

If such a thing is allowed and encouraged at main centers and even at a showcase place such as Oxford, this gives the green light to all other centers for indulging in that weakness. On the other hand, Baba has many times said that
  • A) we should take care of the body, our vehicle and temple that needs proper maintenance, exercise, eat properly ...
    B) White clothes are not compulsory and we can do even more service by blending in with lokiks, especially at marriages, at temple ceremonies, etc ...
Even in respect to these instructions, the SS broke the rules and imposed their vision.

Does ShivBaba's opinion not count, that we should follow SS instead? These contradictions and double standards, are so plain to see, even for a very young BK

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Re: Shiva iconoclast

Post by joel » 29 Mar 2007

alladin wrote:About Brahma Baba pictures, I was just thinking today that in Sakar Murli, Baba recurrently gives the direction that we should not keep pictures of the old boot corporeal medium....
Yes, I grew up in Gyan hearing these Murli points. It was always explained that the situation is quite different now, than when Brahma Baba was living. Perhaps someone else here can explain exactly what this difference is.

I happened to save copies of a Sakar Murli that said that by remembering Brahma you will become an even more sinful soul. This line was missing in the next revision of the same Murli. (I don't have these Murlis at hand, but one day hope to scan and upload them.)

I was already on my way out at the time. This discovery of surreptitious editing helped me recognize that qualities of openness that I valued I could not expect to find among the BKs. (As with Alladin, I found 12-step meetings to be better at supporting people in dealing honestly with problems, partly because humility and the honest representation of ones actual condition that accompanies humility are valued so highly.)
A) we should take care of the body, our vehicle and temple that needs proper maintenance, exercise, eat properly...
B) White clothes are not compulsory and we can do even more service by blending in with lokiks, especially at marriages, at temple ceremonies, etc...
Even in respect to these instructions, SS broke the rules and imposed their vision. Does ShivBaba's opinion not count, that we should follow SS instead?These contadictions and double standards, are so plain to see, even for a very young BK
From my current perspective, these considerations have been overwhelmed by the need of the organization to create and hold new members, and to do so by encouraging an attitude of renunciation, of separation from family, work and friends.

A person who is physically active is less likely to surrender their judgment to others.

A uniform reinforces a person's sense of identity and of belonging, marks them as different from others.

Perhaps the intoxication of spiritual recognition was enough to bring people to the group at the beginning, then (as with all religions, even according to the BKs) the issue of how to get and hold new members has colored the teachings and practice. The PBKs certainly seem to believe this.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 29 Mar 2007

alladin wrote:So, who started infringing this rule? I guess Seniors, then, everybody else followed.

Does ShivBaba's opinion not count, that we should follow SS instead? These contradictions and double standards, are so plain to see, even for a very young BK
As stated, BK lore is that Janki Kirpalani started the pictures of Lekhraj Kirpalani in the West by insisting that she had a trance light of Lekhraj Kirpalani contrary to Shrimat.

When and where the trance lights started, the life sized or bigger than life sized backlit images of Lekhraj Kirpalani, I do not know. I can remember her saying this and joking about it when the point in the Murli's came up. She was in love with him too. They were much more potent that mere photos of the authorized painting.

I look at her own psychology. She left Lekhraj Kirpalani when he was Prajapati God Brahma to get married and have sex and a child. I still have not found out when she came back exactly. The kid died somehow and she then sometime later, she ran off to join Om Mandli. We are told. It might be true. It might not. We don't know the details. But do you think equally that it is beyond human psychology that she might just have been a little guilty/shameful/paranoid/attached to Lekhraj Kirpalani ... has the Yugya been living out her displacement behavior ever since?

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Post by arjun » 30 Mar 2007

• It appears that through the 30s and 40s they called themselves 'Brahman' not Brahmin. It is clearly marked 'Brahman Dynasty'. Their relationship was with the Brahm and Brahmand. - when the caste elevation came, it is not clear yet but my guess it was a simple poetic, sidestepping re-write.
I have found an interesting Murli point from a revised Sakar Murli published by BKs on 22.3.07

"Kahtey hain Ashtavakra nay Janak ko gyaan diya! Parantu yah koi Brahm Gyaan toh hai nahee, yah hai Brahma Gyaan. Brahmakumaariyaan yah gyaan dey rahee hain. Brahm-kumariyaan nahee. Vah log Brahm ko Ishwar samajhtey hain, parantu nahee. Ishwar toh Baap hai. Baap ka naam hee Shiv hai. Brahm toh tatwa hai."

"It is said that Ashtavakra gave knowledge to Janak! But this is not a Brahm Gyaan (knowlede of 'Brahm') This is Brahma Gyaan (knowledge of 'Brahma') Brahmakumaris are giving this knowledge, not Brahmkumaris. Those people consider Brahm to be God, but no. God is Father. Father's name is Shiv. Brahm is an element."

Kindly note the difference between the use of 'Brahm' and 'Brahma' in the above sentences. As evidenced from the historical documents uploaded by ex-l, the word 'Brahm' was used instead of 'Shiv' in the period before 1950, but the above Murli point is a proof of the transition from 'Brahm' to 'Brahma' on the one hand and from 'Brahm' to 'Shiv' on the other hand.

Regards.
OGS,
Arjun

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Post by andrey » 01 Apr 2007

Prajapati means husband of the world. He becomes this later. First he becomes Prajapita Father of the world. Both are not for Brahma Baba. He became famous as Brahma later on. Initially he is not a leading personality in the Yagya. He himself says in the Murlis ”we thought /me – Brahma Baba and OM Radhe/ they will come in high number in the mala – regarding the ones who used to teach them, made them do the drill and left.

I suppose initially when the initial knowledge comes it just comes like abstract knowledge. It is always like this. There is Prajapati, there is Prajapita etc, but who is he is known later. That’s why Baba via Virendra Dev Dixit says first the knowledge is revealed then the giver of knowledge. When in the Murli it is spoken about God etc we initially think it is about the form of ShivBaba through Brahma Baba, but later we understand that it is spoken about other personality. The same way in Advance knowledge there are just points of knowledge that there is such personality as Shankar he will be like this and like that, but no one says “I am Shankar” or “Shankar is so-and so” Just knowledge is given and one judges himself. In the course also initially we receive knowledge and later we understand the source.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 01 Apr 2007

Andrey wrote:Prajapati means husband of the world. He becomes this later. First he becomes Prajapita, Father of the world. Both are not for Brahma Baba. He became famous as Brahma later on. Initially, he is not a leading personality in the Yagya. He himself says in the Murlis ”we thought (me – Brahma Baba and Om Radhe) they will come in high number in the mala – regarding the ones who used to teach them, made them do the drill and left.
Depending on where the world came from, and my suggestion would be the Bhakti Sanskrit term for Vishnu not Hindi, Praja means "common people". Someone else translated it as "subjects". Pati means master, lord, husband or owner.

I don't understand how you can say, "he becomes Prajapita first and then Prajapati later" when from at least 1939 to 1949 he is clearly referred to as "Prajapati God Brahma". My question is, historically when did he - or whoever - start to be referred to as Prajapita or "Father of the common people". No vague answers or "meaningful" advanced interpretations, please. I would like specifically dated Murlis or other such documentation.

For the sakes of accuracy, using the same term, Vishnu is also traditionally referred to as "Lord of all living creatures" or "Lord of Creatures" but the element of "Lord" and "subjects" is a common thread.

Actually, having seen original documentation, I am surprised by a number of inconsistencies in the Advance Knowledge with none of this being mentioned.

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Post by andrey » 01 Apr 2007

Dear brother,
Who is reffered to like this? It is not for Brahma Baba.

First it comes an idea - there is Prajapati. This is common old knowledge from the path of bakti, but somehow in this gathering it comes with new power. Like everyone knows to chant om, but some special power is there in their chanting. They also used to study and interpret the common Gita from the path of bakti. Externally there is nothing new like knowledge - the cycle is common, who is Prajapati - no one tells - Brahma Baba is Prajapati, no, maybe no one thinks as yet like this too. This gathering is formed based on the visions of DL and it clarifications through his partner. Even Brahma Baba considers himsef secondary at that time then how can he be Prajapati.

Other souls receive visions, get attracted to Brahma baba, but the holder of knowledge an the one who does everything is ShivBaba through Prajapita - different personality to Brahma and also the Mother. At this time the soul of Shiva did not used to enter Brahma Baba. Prajapita is the sourse of knowledge then. Then some mistakenly thought that Brahma Baba is doing everything - he is Prajapita - he is Prajapati. This gathering also falls apart, then those who were attracted to Brahma Baba gather with him in Karachi, then Murlis begin, then he comes to be considered as Brahma.

Yes, praja is people. He /not BB/ becomes Prajapita first and then Prajapati - the husband at the end when he takes all the souls as his wifes home.

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Post by arjun » 04 Apr 2007

ex-l wrote:so what about the Divine revellation in 1936 of Shivoham, Shivoham? Something does not add up. I don't think we have been told about this ..
ShivBaba is helping us in our research of Yagya history by providing us answers in the recent revised Sakar Murlis published by the BKs. Here is one such concrete proof, which could be provided to any of the Western scholars who have written books on Brahmakumaris Institution:

Tum bachhey yah thodey hee kah sakengey – Baba nay kab inmay pravesh kiya. Jab sakshaatkaar hua tab aaya va kab? Saakshaatkaar toh Bhakti marg may bhi aisey hee hotey hain. Pataa nahee padta ki Baba kis samay aaya. Krishna kay aaney kee ghadee dikhaatey hain. ShivBaba kee ghadi aadi kuch hoti nahee. Baba toh maalik hai. Kab aatey hain, pataa nahee padta hai. Yahaan Murli say samajh jaatey hain.” (BKs dwara prakaashit revised Sakar Murli dinaank 27.03.07, pg.2)


You children would not be able to say – when Baba entered into him. Did He come when he had divine vision or when? Similar divine visions occur in the path of worship also. It cannot be known at what time Baba came. The time of the arrival of Krishna is depicted. There is no time, etc. for the arrival of ShivBaba. Baba is a Master. It cannot be known - when He comes. Here, it is guessed through Murli.” (Revised Sakar Murli dated 27.03.07, pg.2 published by BKs and narrated by ShivBaba through Brahma Baba)

- Baba is telling that one cannot know about the time of entry of Shiv into Brahma Baba and it can’t even be said that Shiv entered into him when he had divine visions. So, how can we say that when Dada Lekhraj had divine visions in his room in 1936/37, the incorporeal Shiv had entered into him on that day and at that time.


Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

Note: Since the above translation has been done by a PBK, it would be interesting and important to obtain the official English translation of the above Murli point, which proves the most important phase of the Yagya history. Any member/reader who is attending daily classes at BK centers? If they do not wish to upload the official version themselves, they can provide it either to me or to the Admin.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 04 Apr 2007

Andrey wrote:This gathering is formed based on the visions of DL and it clarifications through his partner. Even Brahma Baba considers himsef secondary at that time then how can he be Prajapati. This gathering also falls apart, then those who were attracted to Brahma Baba gather with him in Karachi, then Murlis begin, then he comes to be considered as Brahma.
OK. Slow down Andrey. This time I am not getting at you. I am very seriously trying to analyse the history which in turns analyzes the advance knowledge. I do not know how is the keeper of the history of the Yugya within the PBKs but we have some serious differences here.
  • a) Lekhraj Kirpalani retired in 1932 and started his satsangs
    b) Shewak Ram was the sleeping partner and yet in 1938/9 actually owed Lekhraj Kirpalani for his share in splitting up the business
    c) Shewak Ram was the secretary of the Om Mandli Bhaibund Committee (aka The Anti-Party)
Those are huge differences. (The approximate age of Lekhraj Kirpalani we agree on and I am open to suggestions to alternative mediumship).

So I am asking, how does that equate to pbk teachings, and more to the point, do the PBKs have any actually evidence for their interpretation of the affairs? How was Shewak acting as medium when he was in the Anti-Party?

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Post by john » 04 Apr 2007

ex-l wrote:So I am asking, how does that equate to PBK teachings, and more to the point, do the PBKs have any actually evidence for their interpretation of the affairs? How was Shewak acting as medium when he was in the Anti-Party?
To add to this I would like to know why if Godfather Shiva is entering Virendra Dev Dixit as per the claim of PBKs, why they did not have this information already?

Was this information already known to Virendra Dev Dixit or PBKs?

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