Prajapati God Brahma

To discuss the BK and PBK versions of the factual Yagya history from the beginning.
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Post by fluffy bunny » 04 Apr 2007

... and d) why no mention of Shiva until after 1950, how and when did it start?

How could I forget?
arjun wrote:Baba is telling that one cannot know about the time of entry of Shiv into Brahma Baba and it can’t even be said that Shiv entered into him when he had divine visions. So, how can we say that when Dada Lekhraj had divine visions in his room in 1936/37, the incorporeal Shiv had entered into him on that day and at that time.
Its strange how the intellect is locked in denial. It goes straight over their heads even if the evidence is in front of them.

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Post by andrey » 06 Apr 2007

Dear brother,

Baba via Virendra Dev Dixit says that from the beginning itself for 4,500 lakhs souls the Path of Bhakti starts, and for the other 4,500 lakhs the Path of Gyan. In the Murli, it is said that visions and trance is a Path of Bhakti, and Knowledge is spoken through the mouth. If it was Brahma Baba, the human soul who is Brahma God Prajapati, then who is the giver of the divine insight? 'Human being' means in human form, not as in 'omnipresent', as fish or turtle.

Initially Dada Lekhraj used to be a normal person, a diamond merchant. He did not consider himself, and no one considered him, "God Prajapati". Then something happened. At that time he neither spoke knowledge, nor went into trance. The trance visions on which the pictures are made were had by sisters. Brahma Baba used to just sit in front of the group. However, he did considered that he would become Krishna himself - the first prince of SatYuga from the beginning. Why? It was not due to the visions he had. He saw the Golden Age, he saw Destruction, he started crying; he was not clear. He was looking for answer.

Then what was the reason that he started believing himself to be Brahma and Krishna and that he should start a gathering etc? If it was only him, the human soul, that is considered the God of the Gita then this would not make sense because he is Krishna is not he?
PRAJAPATI Brahma or SREE Krishna
So "Prajapati God Brahma" is some one else.
establishment of the one Original Eternal Religion of 'AHAM BRAHM ASMI'" by "DIVINE F ATHER PRAJAPATI B RAHMA, THE Gita INVENTOR, THE IMPARTER OF IMPERISHABLE WISDOM AND THE BESTOWER OF DIVINE INSIGHT and NOT SREE K RISHNA !!!"
It is only ShivBaba who establishes this. What is this?
I am GOD ETERNAL and My Maya is also Eternal
There should be some mistake. Eternal God is only Shiva, the Supreme Soul, then when he comes he creates Gods and Goddesses in corporeal form which are not eternally gods.

The name of Shiva is not mentioned because at that time the Knowledge of the soul, the point of light, was not mentioned, and Shiva is a soul, a point of light. The gathering used to operate on the basis of Bhakti. In the Murli, it is said, "if someone would receive a vision of a point of light he would not understand anything".

In the diagram, it is exactly as the Advance Knowledge says, that in the Golden Age souls from all the religions come but their nature becomes merged. We know about Piu Vani that was so powerful that some souls were not able to tolerate it. They preferred the Path of Bhakti.

Who called the Anti-Party the Anti-Party. I can recall that Baba via Virendra Dev Dixit saying that Brahma Baba moved to Karachi because of the opposition. The BKs call PBKs now anti too.

Who is the sleeping partner? The meaning of the Supreme Soul's incarnation in the Four Ages in the Advance Knowledge is that he gets revealed four times in the shooting period of the four ages in the Confluence Age. Baba via Virendra Dev Dixit says, initially he though Brahma Baba to be the Father. Nothing sits in the intellect at once.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 06 Apr 2007

One of the big problems with your position Andrey, is that a) you have no evidence to support what you say; and b) you are relying on interpretation. Worse, the interpretations are of random single lines, taken out of context from a variety of Murlis, and strung together as "proofs". What makes your position even more problematic is that you have not see, nor sought the evidence that does exist.
Andrey wrote:If it is only him the human soul that is considered the God of the Gita than this would not make sense, because he is Krishna isn’t it?
Then at the time the Brahma-kumaris were making even less sense than they do now. Your PBK version are also purely theoretical and another form Bhakti, some of which are contradicted by these revellations.
Andrey wrote: So Prajapati God Brahma is someone else.
No. Only to the brain of a PBK perhaps. And in this case, if we needed, we could actually go back to those that helped compose the images and ask them what was intended. I'd say it was clear that they thought Lekhraj Kirpalani was God, as it is written. This is the problem with some PBKs. Someone could make a simple spelling mistake in translation and they would spend 20 years debating what the meaning of it was when, in fact, it was just a spelling mistake.

In English when we write, e.g. "David Beckham, football captain or husband to Posh Spice". It does not mean that there are two David Beckhams. Its means there is one and he can be seen as a footballer or a husband.
We know about Piu Vani that was so powerful that some souls were not able to tolerate it. They preferred the path of bakti.
We do not know anything about Pui and the Pui Vanis. They are also covered up. See here; Pui Vani topic.
Who has termed the anti-party – anti-party.
"Who" we do not know. But Om Radhe certainly calls them so by 1938/9. I call them what they called themselves, "Om Mandli Bhaibund Committee".
What is sleeping partner?
When two people are in business and one invests the money but does no work whilst the other does the all the work; the one that puts in the money but no work is called the "sleeping partner". By BKWSU ... and I believe PBK ... lore, Shewak Ram was the worker and Lekhraj Kirpalani was the sleeping partner.

I flagged this up as untrue because in this book, it is Shewak Ram that is the sleeping partner. It is clearly noted from the court proceedings that he was the sleeping partner and that as of 1938 still owed Lekhraj Kirpalani money which stopped him from being able to act as a witness.

The PBKs are all also ignoring that Shewak Ram (Sevak Ram) was on the side of the Anti-Party/Om Mandli Bhaibund Committee as its secretary. This has not been explained yet. How could he be the permanent Chariot, and Virendra Dev Dixit the reincarnation of him, if he was in the Anti-Party at that time? Where is the documented history of what he did?
The meaning of the Supreme Soul's incarnation in the four ages in the Advanced Knowledge is that he gets revealed four times in the shooting period of the four ages in the Confluence Age.
In this incident, what it being said is that Lekhraj Kirpalani, aka BB, is God and that he, Lekhraj Kirpalani takes birth in all 4 Ages.

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Post by arjun » 07 Apr 2007

ex-l wrote:Then at the time the Brahma-Kumaris were making even less sense than they do now. Your PBK version are also purely theoretical and another form Bhakti, some of which are contradicted by these revellations.
Yes, it is true to some extent. The version of the Yagya history that has been presented by PBKs (narrated by ShivBaba through Baba Virendra Dev Dixit) is based on the bits of Yagya history revealed in the Murlis and the four original pictures and not on any other documentary evidence. This has been admitted in the answers given to some questions (related to Yagya history) raised by a PBK member of this forum (Surya Bhai) in the Q&A thread of the PBK section. ShivBaba (through Baba Virendra Dev Dixit) in his replies clearly stated that there is no proof available for the statements made in the questions.

Although the bit about Shevakram appears to be contradictory to PBK claims, but many other points of advance (PBK) knowledge have been proved by these historical documents.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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Post by fluffy bunny » 07 Apr 2007

arjun wrote:Although the bit about Shevakram appears to be contradictory to PBK claims, but many other points of advance (PBK) knowledge have been proved by these historical documents.
We do not know if it contradicts yet, it may just complete a full picture. But why did not they know about these things, if it is "God Shiva" and if Virendra Dev Dixit is the incarnation of Shewak Ram?

Surely if it was the same "God Shiva" that was incarnating back in the 1930s, he would know what he was up to? Why would he be relying on a faulted and fabricated BKWSU version?

Ditto the 1932 incidents.

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Post by bro neo » 17 Apr 2007

Kudoos for all the research done. I personally thank you and am very, very grateful for the efforts to you who were involved in clarifying the truth of this matter. A matter which largely defines, if not dominates the life of many ex-BKs, myself included. And hard facts and proof are what we all want more of, I am sure.

Also reading some of the replies got me thinking about the difference between the psychology of males and females. When I was in Gyan, I only keep pictures of Shiv Baba as well.

A lot of studies show that males stereotypically have a competitive nature and how females have a co-operative nature. I certainly did not like the prospect of being number 2, or even less then Brahma. Sisters on the other hand may have seen a relationship with Brahma as a form of co-operation in their personal efforts, thus their special love for him. Of course, there are other more easily explained reasons why sisters tend to like BB more then brothers.

"De-nial is not just a river in Egypt."

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Post by yudhishtira » 27 Apr 2007

Its worth bearing in mind that "Brahma -Dev" in Hindi means "Deity Brahma" not "God Brahma" or that Brahma is God. In the same way they say Krishna -Dev etc; all the major gods and goddesses in Hindi are referred to as Dev or Devta. (according to someone I know for whom Hindi is their first language)

In the documentation supplied, they also refer to Christ and the other prophets as being Divine Fathers and their followers as being Divine ones. So Dada is saying that he sees himself as the prophet Brahma, not as God. God in Hindi is always referred to as Param - atma (Supreme Soul) . Nowhere on the documents supplied does it say that Brahma is Param - atma. I have some more info on this which I will post as soon as I have clarified it.

The major problem I can see is the lack of openness in published literature by the BKs about the length of time it took for knowledge to be clarified and open (out of fear, lack of their own faith?) . Apparantly when Dada Vishwa Rattan and Brother Ramnath used to talk to double foreigners in Madhuban going back 20 or so years ago, this issue was openly discussed. Brother Jagdish is another story... he was told by Bap-Dada that he had originally been responsible for the mistakes in the Gita, and thats why he had to write so many books now, but it looks like he still hasnt had the sanskars of accuracy in this birth...

These are some more extracts from "Satyum, Shivam, Sundaram" (book of Murli extracts ) which relate to this issue. I explain about the origins of this book in Bansys thread on the Soul in the Common Room.

"This Dada says: I am not Shiva. I was called Dada Lekraj, but when I surrendered to Baba, Baba gave me the name Brahma" SM 24/11/00

"When Baba went to Benares he had distaste for this world. He used to sit there and draw lines on the wall. Shiv Baba inspired me to to do that. At that time, I was a child and there wasn't full understanding. There was just the feeling that there was someone that was making me do all that. When I had the vision of destruction, there was also internal happiness. At night, when I was sleeping, I felt as though I was flying. However, I didnt understand anything. I just used to draw lines. I felt that there was some specific power that had entered me. I used to be amazed. Previously I used to do business etc. but then what happened was that I would look at some people and they would very quickly go into trance. The eyes of whomsoever I looked at would close. When you asked those people what they saw, they would reply that they saw paradise or that they saw Krishna. This was also something to understand. This is why I renounced everything and went to Benares to try to understand. I used to sit there throughout the day. I used to draw on a wall with a pencil and do nothing else. I was a little baby! When I saw my behaviour, I felt I didnt want to do any of that business, that I had to renounce my business. (SM 26/11/99)

" Many people are so trapped in the opinion of society. This Baba was not concerned about anyone. He was insulted so much! He never thought or dreamt about this. It was when Baba made him a Brahmin that he began to be insulted. The whole community was on one side and Dada was on the other. The whole Sindhi community asked him; What are you doing? What is all this? In the Gita, the versions of God Shiva say: Lust is the greatest enemy. By conquering this you become a master of the world. This expression is in the Gita. Someone is making me say: By conquering the vice of lust you become a conqueror of the world" SM 31/08/00

These are the main extracts i found relating to that period, as the book mainly relates to Shiv Baba.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 27 Apr 2007

yudhishtira wrote:Its worth bearing in mind that "Brahma -Dev" in Hindi means "Deity Brahma" not "God Brahma" or that Brahma is God. In the same way they say Krishna -Dev etc; all the major gods and goddesses in Hindi are referred to as Dev or Devta. (according to someone I know for whom Hindi is their first language)

In the documentation supplied, they also refer to Christ and the other prophets as being Divine Fathers and their followers as being Divine ones. So Dada is saying that he sees himself as the prophet Brahma, not as God. God in Hindi is always referred to as Param - atma (Supreme Soul) . Nowhere on the documents supplied does it say that Brahma is Param - atma. I have some more info on this which I will post as soon as I have clarified it.
No, the prophet souls are "Divine Fathers", Lekhraj Kirpalani is "Divine God Father". The two are different.

Lekhraj Kirpalani is refered to God Father, the BKs are refered to as "gods and godessess", i.e. devas. But how can you justify (confuse) Gyan on the basis of Bhakti? Firstly, you cannot say "in India" or "in Hindi" 'anything' is 'always' 'anything' because there are 1,000 different religions. To be honest, these people have backbones like an eel, and are just as slippery, so you have your work cut out for you.

"Paramatma", separate from jivatma, in Hinduism is a universal omnipresent god existing in the hearts of every living creature, perhaps every thing. You are being confused here (not "you are confused" because you are earnestly trying to understand) by that other Hindi speaking BK with BK terminology and it is a disadvantage Western BKs have always have.

What would help, indeed taking us to the starting point in order to discuss these issues as Arjuna pointed out, would be the original Hindi/Sindhi texts that the Prajapita Brahma-kumaris had translated into English. BUT these are offical translations, there is no mention of Shiva until 1950, and God takes 84 births.
The major problem I can see is the lack of openness in published literature by the BKs about the length of time it took for knowledge to be clarified and open (out of fear, lack of their own faith?). Apparantly when Dada Vishwa Rattan and Brother Ramnath used to talk to double foreigners in Madhuban going back 20 or so years ago, this issue was openly discussed. Brother Jagdish is another story ... he was told by BapDada that he had originally been responsible for the mistakes in the Gita, and that's why he had to write so many books now, but it looks like he still hasnt had the sanskars of accuracy in this birth.
Yes to the first point but I, and a few others here, were around 20 years ago and this stuff was not discussed or referred to. I have spoken to BKs/ex-BKs from the 70s and they were not told either. We were all fed the same fairy stories they are feeding folk now .. and have successfully propagated throughout academia and professional worlds. Andy why did the Dadas lie in 2000 when they published that autobiography?

Yes, I could buy into the "developing understanding" theory, (and highlight the blocked intellects of the early BKs) but I would want to see where, when and why it all changed. Surely this moment is a MORE significant point in the development of Gyan than the 1936 fairy story version? It must have been a realisation of a historic proportion. Did Lekhraj Kirpalani just wake up one morning and go ... "Bingo! It is Shiva" or were there other mediums involved?
These are some more extracts from "Satyum, Shivam, Sundaram" (book of Murli extracts ) which relate to this issue. I explain about the origins of this book in Bansys thread on the Soul in the Common Room ... "This Dada says: I am not Shiva. I was called Dada Lekraj, but when I surrendered to Baba, Baba gave me the name Brahma" SM 24/11/00 ... This is why I renounced everything and went to Benares to try to understand. I used to sit there throughout the day. I used to draw on a wall with a pencil and do nothing else. I was a little baby! When I saw my behaviour, I felt I didnt want to do any of that business, that I had to renounce my business. (SM 26/11/99)
OK. What we need here are original dates for Murlis and dates for the events. Revised or covered up Murlis dates are no good.
  • • when did he go to Benares
    • when did he "realise" Shiva?
    • The name came via another medium of Shiva, who was it and what happened to them?
If I was a card carrying BK, I would want to know all this stuff. I would demand and expect to know all this stuff and have the answers to my questions proven.

Good luck to you digging away at the inside of the machine to sort it out. Try and find out where the "Divine Decrees" are.

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Post by bansy » 27 Apr 2007

"Satyum, Shivam, Sundaram" (book of Murli extracts )
I know this book.
It's just another reference collection of Murli points, but why are quotes from post 1969 (e.g. SM 31/08/00, SM 29/07/00, SM ddmmyy etc) when we all know that SMs only existed before 1969 ? How about SM 01/05/67 or even SM 31/08/65 or even SM 01/04/71 etc ? How many revisions have these quotes in this book had from 1969-current within 5 year rotation cycles ? (or for that matter, every day and every morning when you go to a centre to hear the Murli ?).

yudhishtira, I know you mean well and are liked by all in this forum, so this is not directed at you. One needs to think about the authenticity of anything, even more so of Gyan coming from BKWSU when souls are made to believe it is the words from the one true God, and thus the necessity for the true words of God to be revised.


Murli, the divine song, sung, spoken, composed and written by God. More recent times, the songs gets redubbed and even digitalised, the juicy analogue tones get cut out, and a new versions are released. Maybe the newer version CD or MP3 seems easier to play, but I'd rather play the original LP with scratches or no scratches, the violin chords in these old LPs are unmatchable. I can understand if those LPs were missing after many centuries, but it wasn't that long ago those LPs were played or otherwise someone is not sharing their record collection with the rest of the family. Or maybe there is no family to really share with. Nor the world. Since there is or was no LP collection in the first place.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 27 Apr 2007

bansy wrote:One needs to think about the authenticity of anything, even more so of Gyan coming from BKWSU when souls are made to believe it is the words from the one true God, and thus the necessity for the true words of God to be revised.
OK, Bansy says it much more nicely than I do but I concur. Excuse my persistence. It is certainly not directed at you at all. I will help you however I can if you are interested at getting to the roots of this all.

By now you can understand that I am pretty disgusted by what a mess they have made of Gyan AND by the dishonesty of it all. Frankly, there is not one of them that I would trust. As far as I can see, there are a whole load of happily misled BKs, the 95% of well meant, innocent people wanting to do go. Then there are the one or two % of willful and knowing corrupters, and their allies, the one or two % of profiteers.

Actually, the "95% good" is probably a little less because you do get a load of tiresomely slippery and hard-headed BKs too ... and the psychos. Pity any poor individual getting involved today, way at the back of hall desperately seeking God.

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Post by yudhishtira » 27 Apr 2007

OK, I hear what you are saying ex-l and I will continue to try and get more information. Understand, this doesn't affect my faith in any way as it was never built on this sort of stuff in the first place. But i understand that this is important to you all and so i am happy to help in whatever way I can.

Re the dates on the Sakar Murlis, if you read the full explanation which I posted on your Common Room thread on the soul Bansy, the brother who compiled this book used the dates which these Murlis were read on at the time when he was compiling the book. None of the Sakar Murlis have the original spoken dates on. I guess if he gone to Madhuban and done some major searching he could have found them.

When I was in Madhuban this time I got a DVD of a Sakar Murli with English translation, the only one they had. What struck me was a) how long it was (70 minutes) and also that b) he kept using the word "child" throughout the Murli, which doesnt appear in the Murlis we get these days. I, too, would like to see the originals. I also (and I know you will laugh at this) trust that what I am getting is what i need, that no one can take my rights from Baba away from me, and that what I need to focus on is understanding and imbibing the basics (who am I, connecting with God) rather than getting lost in complexity. I still feel this after seeing everything about the Yagya and its dubious instruments.

Love and good wishes to y'all

Yudhishtira

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Post by john » 27 Apr 2007

yudhishtira wrote:that what I need to focus on is understanding and imbibing the basics (who am I; connecting with God) rather than getting lost in complexity. I still feel this after seeing everything about the Yagya and its dubious instruments.
Yudhishtira
Yudhishtra.

These ARE the basics. Who is God, who is the Author of this knowledge, are the basics.
When I was in Madhuban this time I got a dvd of a Sakar Murli with English translation; the only one they had. What struck me was a) how long it was (70 minutes) and also that
Original Sakar Murlis are said to be 5,6,7 pages long, some power in the BKs decided that was too long and eventually they are cut to the size you get today. Only 5 years of Murli are available, if, as you understand Shiva entered Brahma in 1936/37 and left in 1969, where are the other 28 years of Murli?

If you can help us find the answers and reveal the 'truth' of the situation, then that has to be a great sevice?

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Post by fluffy bunny » 27 Apr 2007

yudhishtira wrote:Re the dates on the Sakar Murlis, if you read the full explanation which I posted on your Common Room thread ... I also (and I know you will laugh at this) trust that what I am getting is what I need, that no one can take my rights from Baba away from me, and that what I need to focus on is understanding and imbibing the basics (who am I, connecting with God) rather than getting lost in complexity. I still feel this after seeing everything about the Yagya and its dubious instruments.
Well said, John. Utterly core, the binary code of the BKWSU.

That is a DVD video of Lekhraj Kirpalani speaking, or just audio?

Yes, the bit about the dates of the Murli is a general b-itch, not aimed at you, about the fact that the BKWSU leadership have decided to remove the original dates from off the Sakar Murlis making it impossible to track how they have re-vised, re-written, re-edited them. They used to ocme with two dates, the original and the revised date.

Personally, I think this is quite deliberate. They don't want our kind of scrutiny.

I'd worry a little about the "back to basics" stuff as that is part of the child-like state they encourage, it is a common policy amounts the SS because, frankly, it is where they are at, and they don't like others outreaching them. Stay in the crib, do not think (as Dadi Janki says), don't grow, eat their baby food.

It is not complex at all. It is all very simple. Start to feel that resistance and control they are having on the family. Yes, it is confusing and upsetting when you start to discover that it is all not true and that we have been lied to, its like going from non-BK to BK and then BK to ... whatever it is next. It is always more comfortable to stay asleep and dream comfortable dream.

But, press on. How high ranking are your Hindi speaker or "lovely ladies"? Have you tried any of this stuff on the SS yet?

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Post by yudhishtira » 27 Apr 2007

its an audio cd, sorry for the confusion, with translation by Manda bhen.

Achsherly folks, I think y'all are missing my point. Soul-conciousness is the first lesson and the last lesson. I do not need to tell you that. Its very subtle and I am find out more about what that really means every day. Every time I do not believe in myself for example.

Currently I am focussing on changing all my belief systems which are negative and limiting to unlimited and empowering. You can call that "baby-ish" if you like, but I'd also challenge you to try it. It can be very easy to stay stuck in being a victim and blaming others but how about having the courage to challenge the universe and all the **** you've believed since you were a child? A darn sight more difficult than finding someone else to blame, believe me, because i've tried both 8).

As for my Hindi speaker, very knowledgeable and well connected. My lovely ladies! Well, of course, I should have said sisters or souls but, hey, they are my good friends and fellow students who I am doing the meditation course with (see abk's thread). As for who is God, I do not have any doubts on that. Whatever you've posted here has still not changed that.

I'd like to challenge you here. Its easy for you to say that most Brahmins are stupid and misled because that supports your theories, but doesn't that sound to you like the Seniors who say you guys are full of Maya and misled in order to continue to support theirs? Having escaped one load of ******* from the controlling instruments, have i let myself in for more with the controlling ex-BKs? Oooerr.

I was just thinking I should add some sort of apology here to keep the peace, but I am feeling in an arsey mood at the moment as you can probably tell. See y'all on Monday if I haven't been excommunicated in the meantime.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 28 Apr 2007

andrey wrote:In the diagram, it is exactly as the Advanced Knowledge says, that in the Golden Age souls from all the religions come but their nature becomes merged. We know about Piu Vani that was so powerful that some souls were not able to tolerate it. They preferred the Path of Bhakti.
OK, I just wanted to say I am still considering what you have written andrey althugh my first repsonse was negative. I want to know more about the Pui Vani and the different parties with the Om Mandli. Am I correct to take it that the "sleeping partner" is a reference to Shiva rather than Shewak? I really wish the PBKs would just put down one clear and simple breakdown of their Knowledge introducing all the characters.

Yud, I do not want to fall out with you, so tell me when to back off. But please do not assign language to me that I did not use, vis-a-vis "stupid". A child is not stupid. Child-like means something specific. I was talking there about all the "Krishna-conscious" BKs, the "Brahma Bhagats" and those that encourage that Path.
I'd like to challenge you here. Its easy for you to say that most Brahmins are stupid and misled because that supports your theories, but doesn't that sound to you like the Seniors who say you guys are full of Maya and misled in order to continue to support theirs?
Our "Maya" is sufficient original documents to prove we have and are being misled and lied to. Others have their own experiences of the Seniors to speak of. What have the senior got to substantiate their slurs?

The big difference between us and the Seniors is that we are are not buying teenage girls in India for the price of their dowry and three years keep, raking in Millions on the basis of myths, and sending out the security wing to beat up PBKs. So much for love, peace and feminism ...
yudhishtira wrote:Achsherly folks, I think Y'all are missing my point; soul-conciousness is the first lesson and the last lesson. I do not need to tell you that. Its very subtle and I am find out more about what that really means every day. Every time I do not believe in myself for example.
So they say ... but I think you want to ask who they are who says it first before investing your life into it.

All we know is that "it is an experience". We know that if we practise BK Raja Yoga/lifestyle a wholeload of other elements are involved that are fairly unexamined. We call that experience soul-consciousness, place values upon it and have develop a religion around it but how do we know what it real is and what The They are up to? We don't even really know it is "God", we are just experimenting with that idea. Look at how the Kripalani Klan keep moving the goal post on rememberance ...

We are headed off topic here and so I, sincerely, suggest that you start up a topic on 'What is soul-consciousness?' and tell us where you have got to, what is the current state of thought within the BKWSU. Funnily enough, I did a search and there does not seem to be such a topic. If you don't, I will. There was the start of one here but it was too early on and perhaps scientific to gather enough momentum. May be you can re-invigorate it from a BK point of view and have it renamed.

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