New book on BKs: Lekhraj Kirpalani's English capacity?

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New book on BKs: Lekhraj Kirpalani's English capacity?

Post by fluffy bunny » 02 Feb 2013

There is a new book on the BKWSU out called Understanding the Brahma Kumaris by Professor Frank Whaling. In the Amazon review, BKWSU PR supremo BK Neville Hodgkinson describes critics of the BKWSU as the "fundamentalists" masking the true nature of the BKWSU as usual.

I had one question ...

Can anyone confirm whether Lekhraj Kirpalani spoke "good English" ... and if he did, why there are not Murlis or dialogues in English and why does BapDada need a translator? My understanding was he had very little English capacity and was not that well educated. I am wondering if in Frank's portrayal of Lekhraj Kirpalani he is again repeating the confusion between Lekhraj Kirpalani and his partner, the original Chariot?

Frank Whaling is a long term "BK contact soul" and sympathetic towards the religion. He has been treated well by the BKs and at the Edinburgh center there was lots of speculation that he might be a brahmin soul. However, he claims to be a Christian. He has been out to Madhuban and received special treatment and has written his impressions of this in his book.

He writes that Lekhraj Kirpalani had "good" English language skills but I did not think he had. There's little proof of that. I wonder if anyone else knew about the level of either his English or Hindi. I am just wondering because I have seen his handwritten Murlis/notes in Urdu (?) and it is almost illegible. Some other BK had to translate in readable language. As usual, Lekhraj Kirpalani is whitewashed into some 'saintly' figure.

It mentions the "Advance Party" in the Index but I have not read whether it means the BK or the PBK use of the word. Naturally, you will understand if I am critical of the book as it reinforced numerous inaccuracies about the Brahma Kumaris again and I do feel that academics should be held liable to be accurate about their subject. If he has ignored the PBKs/AIVV issue, which he knows about, then I would become suspicious of his intentions.

The author repeats much of the romantic view of the BKs' history and goes no where near any of the controversies.

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Re: New book on BKs: Lekhraj Kirpalani's English capacity?

Post by mbbhat » 02 Feb 2013

The link does not get opened in my computer now. It gives message as


Looking for something?
We're sorry. The Web address you entered is not a functioning page on our site.

Go to Amazon.co.uk's Home Page
May be for someone it is opening.

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Re: New book on BKs: Lekhraj Kirpalani's English capacity?

Post by fluffy bunny » 02 Feb 2013

Try it now ... here's a short URL http://amzn.to/WlnEqc

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Re: New book on BKs: Lekhraj Kirpalani's English capacity?

Post by mbbhat » 02 Feb 2013

Yes, now it is opening.

Fine. good research , excellent.

It may take time to read.

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Re: New book on BKs: Lekhraj Kirpalani's English capacity?

Post by fluffy bunny » 04 Feb 2013

Now, can you answer the original question honestly ... or if not, get an official honest response from any honest elders in the BKWSU?

I think the statement gives a false impression. I don't think Lekhraj Kirpalani (or Om Radhe) had "good" English at all. They probably had a smattering of "Hinglish" but I suspect that is all. Om Radhe's claim to culture fame was being able to sing "Twinkle Twinkle Little Star" which wowed the old ladies. (Of course, there was no concept of Shiva as a little star until in the 60s).

I tend to think that if Om Radhe or Lekhraj Kirpalani had spoken "good English", there would have been some evidence of it. Is there any?

Anyone else?

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Re: New book on BKs: Lekhraj Kirpalani's English capacity?

Post by mbbhat » 04 Feb 2013

Now, can you answer the original question honestly ... or if not, get an official honest response from any honest elders in the BKWSU?
I could not read the book there, since it is copy righted material.

And- suppose say- you are right, even then it does not make any sense to me, because it is just part of information, neither knowledge, nor essence.

For me- It is like covering material of a product and not any part of the product.

But, your research may be worth for you. So- you may go ahead, OK.

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Re: New book on BKs: Lekhraj Kirpalani's English capacity?

Post by fluffy bunny » 04 Feb 2013

Show a little good faith and respect for others, mbbhat.

I can read the book and the answer is not in it. I told you what the book says.

Please stop just trying to spoil yet another topic.


The answer is in the BK leadership and BKWSU's history ... so please help us to find out the truth. Thank you.

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Re: New book on BKs: Lekhraj Kirpalani's English capacity?

Post by arjun » 04 Feb 2013

an anyone confirm whether Lekhraj Kirpalani spoke "good English" ... and if he did, why there are not Murlis or dialogues in English and why does BapDada need a translator?
I don't think Dada Lekhraj was good at English. Perhaps he could speak a little and understand written/printed English. Nor is Dadi Gulzar. But they do know many words in English and it is these words that Shiv used through Brahma or Brahma uses through Dadi Gulzar.

BKInfo-Revised Sakar Murli -758
“अंग्रेजी अक्षर अच्छे हैं। तुम कहेंगे बाबा अंग्रेजी नहीं जानते। बाबा कहते हैं मैं कहाँ तक सब भाषायें बैठ बोलूंगा। मुख्य है ही हिन्दी। तो मैं हिन्दी में ही मुरली चलाता हूँ। जिसका शरीर धारण किया है वह भी हिन्दी ही जानता है। तो जो इनकी भाषा है वही मैं भी बोलता हूँ। और कोई भाषा में थोड़ेही पढ़ाऊंगा। मैं फ्रैन्च बोलूँ तो यह कैसे समझेगा? मुख्य तो इनकी (ब्रह्मा की) बात है। इनको तो पहले समझना है ना। दूसरे कोई का शरीर थोड़ेही लेंगे। “(ब्रह्माकुमारियों द्वारा प्रकाशित रिवाइज़्ड साकार मुरली दिनांक २९.११.०८, पृ. २)

“The English words are nice. You will say that Baba does not know English. Baba says – How far will I speak all the languages. Main is Hindi. So, I narrate Murlis in Hindi only. The one whose body I have taken also knows only Hindi. So, I also speak in the same language as that of this one. How can I teach in any other language? If I speak French, how will this one understand? The main issue is about this one (i.e. Brahma). First this one has to understand, shouldn’t he? How can I take the body of anyone else?” (Revised Sakar Murli dated 29.11.08, pg 2 published by BKs in Hindi, narrated by ShivBaba through Brahma Baba; translated by a PBK; the words within brackets in the English version have been added by the translator to clarify the meaning)

BKInfo-Revised Sakar Murli -463
“अब बैंगलोर, मद्रास के बच्चे बैठे हैं, उन्हों को फिर मद्रासी भाषा में कोई बैठ समझाये। हमारी भाषा तो हिन्दी है। कल्प पहले भी ऐसे समझाया होगा। कहेंगे भगवान सब भाषायें क्यों नहीं जानते। परन्तु ड्रामा में है नहीं। ड्रामा में होता तो मैं सब भाषाओं में भाषण करता। समझो भिन्न-भिन्न भाषाओं वाले बैठे हों तो क्या हम सब भाषाओं में बैठ बोलूंगा क्या? यह तो हो नहीं सकता। एक-दो को भी कहाँ तक सुनायेंगे। घमासान हो जाये। तो समझाना चाहिए बाबा ने कल्प पहले जिस भाषा में समझाया था उसी भाषा में ही समझाते हैं, इसलिए हिन्दी का जोर है। अंग्रेजी भी जरूरी है क्योंकि इन्हों का कनेक्शन अंग्रेजों से जास्ती है। रशिया, अमेरिका आदि की भाषा अपनी-अपनी है। हैं एक ही धर्म वाले क्रिश्चियन। परन्तु भाषायें बहुत हैं। यहाँ भी हैं सब भारतवासी आदि सनातन देवी-देवता धर्म वाले परन्तु अपने धर्म को भूल गये हैं। भाषायें कितनी हो गई हैं। सब मिक्सचर हैं। जिसकी जो भाषा है उसमें फिर उनको सुनाना है।“ (ब्रह्माकुमारियों द्वारा प्रकाशित रिवाइज़्ड साकार मुरली दिनांक १२.०७.०८, पृ. ३)
“Now children from Bangalore, Madras are sitting. Someone will be required to explain to them in Madrasi language. Our language is Hindi. It must have been explained like this in the previous Kalpa too. They will say – Why doesn’t God know all the languages? But it is not fixed/included in the drama. Had it been included in the drama, then I would have delivered lectures in all the languages. Suppose, people who speak different languages are sitting, then will I sit and speak in all the languages? This cannot be possible. How far can I narrate to one or two persons? It will lead to a fight. So, it must be explained – Baba explains in the same language in which He had explained Kalpa ago. That is why Hindi is preferred. English is also necessary because these people have more connection with the Englishmen. Russia, America, etc. have their own languages. The Christian belong to the same religion. But their languages are many. Even here all the Indians belong to the Aadi Sanaatan Devi Devtaa Dharma (deity religion), but they have forgotten their religion. So many languages have emerged. All are mixtures. We should narrate to every person in his own language.”(Revised Sakar Murli dated 12.07.08, pg 3 published by BKs in Hindi, narrated by ShivBaba through Brahma Baba; translated by a PBK; the words within brackets in the English version have been added by the translator to clarify the meaning)


BKInfo-Revised Sakar Murli -1131
“बाबा ने समझाया है यह मनुष्य सृष्टि रूपी झाड़ है, इनका बीज ऊपर में है। विराट रूप कहते हैं ना। बाप बैठ तुम बच्चों को समझाते हैं। मनुष्यों को यह पता नहीं है। शिवबाबा कोई से भाषा सीखा होगा? जबकि उनका कोई टीचर ही नहीं तो भाषा तो कोई है नहीं। वह जरूर जिस रथ में आते हैं उनकी भाषा ही काम में लायेगा। उनकी अपनी भाषा तो कोई है नहीं। वह कुछ पढ़ते सीखते ही नहीं। उनका कोई टीचर होता नहीं। कृष्ण तो सीखता है। उनके माँ, बाप, टीचर हैं, उनको गुरु की दरकार ही नहीं क्योंकि उनको तो सद्गति मिली हुई है। यह भी तुम जानते हो।“(ब्रह्माकुमारियों द्वारा प्रकाशित रिवाइज़्ड साकार मुरली दिनांक २६.०५.०९, पृ. २)

“Baba has explained – this is a human world tree; its seed is above. They speak of the gigantic form (viraat roop), don’t they? The Father sits and explains to the children. People do not know this. Did ShivBaba learn the language from anyone? When He does not have any teacher at all, then He does not have any language of His own. He will certainly use the language of the Chariot in which He enters. He does not have any language of His own. He does not read or study anything at all. He does not have any teacher. Krishna learns. He has a mother, Father, teacher; He does not at all need a guru because He is already in a state of true salvation. It is you who know this.” (Revised Sakar Murli dated 26.05.09, pg 2 published by BKs in Hindi, narrated by ShivBaba through Brahma Baba; translated by a PBK; the words within brackets in the English version have been added by the translator to clarify the meaning)


BKInfo-Revised Sakar Murli -793
“तुम जानते हो इस समय सबसे पावरफुल यह क्रिश्चियन लोग हैं। उनकी अंग्रेजी भाषा के अक्षर भी बहुत अच्छे हैं। जो राजायें होते हैं वह अपनी भाषा चलाते हैं। देवताओं की भाषा कोई जानते नहीं। हमारी बच्चियाँ आगे सब कुछ आकर बतलाती थी। दो-चार दिन ध्यान में रहती थी। अब कोई बुद्धिवान सन्देशी हो जो वहाँ की भाषा देखकर सुनाये।“(ब्रह्माकुमारियों द्वारा प्रकाशित रिवाइज़्ड साकार मुरली दिनांक १७.१२.०८, पृ. १)

“You know that now the most powerful people are these Christians. The words of their English language are very nice. The kings spread their own language. Nobody knows the language of the deities. Earlier our daughters used to come (back from trance) and tell everything (about the language of the deities, etc.) They used to remain in trance for two-four days. Well there should be an intelligent sandeshi (trance messenger) who could observe the language of that place and narrate.” (Revised Sakar Murli dated 17.12.08, pg 1 published by BKs in Hindi, narrated by ShivBaba through Brahma Baba; translated by a PBK; the words within brackets in the English version have been added by the translator to clarify the meaning)

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Re: New book on BKs: Lekhraj Kirpalani's English capacity?

Post by fluffy bunny » 05 Feb 2013

You see ...

One can depend on a PBK for good manners, making accurate effort and a knowledge of the Murlis ... while a BK will do nothing but make excuses, causes distractions and insult.

Thank you. The Murlis, historical record and meetings in Madhuban appear to support that Lekhraj Kirpalani did not have a good English capacity ... otherwise why does he need a translator for the simple questions and answers with double foreigner BKs?

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Re: New book on BKs: Lekhraj Kirpalani's English capacity?

Post by fluffy bunny » 19 Feb 2013

I am continuing to read the book. To be honest, it's not very good. It's more like an affection tour guidebook to the BKs rather than an academic analysis.

Frank Whaling has copied a section about the PBKs from Dr John Walliss's book 'The Brahma Kumaris as a Reflexive Tradition: Responding to Late Modernity'. John Walliss is unique of academics to date to have actually visited and spoken to PBKs, against the BKs' wishes and threats, and for commenting upon the BKs antagonisms towards the PBKs. The BK academics have, of course, universally ignored them.

Most academics or journalists have only seen the "nice face" of the BKs.
  • Can any PBK confirm whether Frank Whaling ever contacted or met with the PBKs?

    (I suspect not).
In his book ... and not so strangely the review of it by the BKWSU 'PR Supremo' Neville Hodgkinson ... Whaling criticises the PBKs for being "fundamentalist". A negative word in today's religious word. How did he come to that assessment if he had never studied the PBKs? Did Hodgkinson and other BKs tell him so?

In Walliss's book, he says of the AIVV
the ‘Advance Party’ (Adhyatmik Ishwariya Vishva Vidyalaya or AIVV) may be envisaged as the Protestant reformers to the Brahma Kumaris’ mediaeval Catholic Church.

A constant theme ... is what they claim to be the increasing incongruence between the University’s actions or public identity and what it professes to believe.
I've read Walliss's book and at no point does he call the PBKs fundamentalist. Anyone that has spent anything looking at the Advance Knowledge, even a non-believer, would see that it is attempting to find a higher, more accurate and more metaphorical understanding of the Knowledge ... in other words, the opposite to fundamentalism which depends on a literal understanding of the words.

Hodgkinson and his like are clearly attempting to malign the AIVV and excuse the BKWSU for those breach of ethics and principles which the AIVV criticises, e.g. the wealth and materialism, the lack of accuracy and hypocrisies. Again, to make such critiques is not "fundamentalism". Quite the opposite, to not question them is fundamentalistic.

The books comes with a dedication
For a number of Brahma Kumaris,
especially Sister Jayanti, Sister Louisa and Sister Maureen
who have given significant help in the writing of this book.
Either Whaling knows what he has written and has deliberately written a puff piece out of favour and affection for the Brahma Kumaris ... or he appear not to "understand" them at all. He does not seem to realise he was not "helped" but he was sweetly steered around and controlled.

In my opinion, Dr John Walliss really got very, very close to nailing the head on the whole BK/PBK conflict. All that he missed, because he was not told, was just how violent and aggressive the BKs had been towards the PBK, thereby utterly destroying the BKs' credibility.
Dr John Walliss wrote:... the Advance Party claim if the Brahma Kumaris had the ‘true’ knowledge, they would not have embarked on the process of New Age- ification and so on in the first place. Therefore, somewhat ironically, in a manner identical to the proto-Brahma Kumaris’ attitude towards their native Hinduism, the struggle between the two groups is hallmarked by a conflict over exclusive access to divine revelation and validity of theodical interpretation or accurate ‘remembrance’ ... at a deeper level the Advance Party’s critique is aimed at the Brahma Kumaris’ theodicy, in particular the manner in which they allege it has been misunderstood and misrepresented. I
they accuse the University hierarchy of actively censoring or altering Murlis that could potentially undermine their privileged position or which ‘don’t suit their philosophy’.

If, however, the Advance Party claim, a member challenges these revisions or asks ‘why the Murli points are being [cut] out, he is told to mind his business’. Moreover, ‘if a student is listening to Advance Knowledge then he is spied upon and not allowed to talk to his fellow Brahmins and he is considered a rebel. Later if he persists then he is told not to attend the classes in the centre’.

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Re: New book on BKs: Lekhraj Kirpalani's English capacity?

Post by sita » 19 Feb 2013

It misses the fundamental point of difference of who God is. Who is the corporeal form of God. Why it is not mentioned that the PBKs claim God plays role after Brahma Baba. Why is the name Shankar not mentioned. And the claim that there has been personalities in the beginning of the yaga, commanding more respect than Brahma Baba.

Presented in such a way it becomes evident PBKs are nothing more than simply criticists of the BKs, whose main occupation is their concern with the BKs, to enter into debate with them and argue, so to reform them. Whatever is seen by the BK as interference is the simple effort of the PBKs to give the fathers introduction and this would not be adressed only to the BKs.

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Re: New book on BKs: Lekhraj Kirpalani's English capacity?

Post by arjun » 19 Feb 2013

fluffy-bunny wrote:Can any PBK confirm whether Frank Whaling ever contacted or met with the PBKs?
I don't think he ever contacted the PBKs. He must have gathered information from the internet (official website of PBKs and various discussion fora) and as you said from the senior BKs who must have given him all the negative feedback. But, despite all that, the information that he has given about the PBKs should be considered revolutionary, considering that he had close contacts with the BKs. But as sister Sita has written, it would have been better if he mentioned about the actual beliefs of the PBKs about ShivBaba's practical role in the Yagya after 1969.

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