1955, no mention of God Shiva

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1955, no mention of God Shiva

Post by fluffy bunny » 03 Jun 2013

This may interest some of you ...

Continuing historical research of the early and mid-periods of the Brahma Kumari movement no prove that up until 1955, there is no mention of God Shiva.

Original BK documents, beyond the censorship and cover up of the BKWSU/PBIVV elite, show that up until this time the Brahma Kumari still believed that Lekhraj Kirpalani was God and that incorporeal Supreme Soul was another manifestation of him; the corporeal and the incorporeal being both the same individual. The incorporeal god being a manifestation of Lekhraj Kirpalani/God Brahma.

It is fair to report that by this period some kind of awareness of an "incorporeal" (bodiless) god or supreme separate from the Brahm element was emerging and that they visualised it in the form of a lingum. Clear mention is made of the difference between him and the home. But the BK definitely saw it as another form of Lekhraj Kirpalani as God Brahma the creator.

There is also no mention of the current conception of Shankar.

As time and resources allow, I will copy these documents but they destroy for once and for, if there is still any doubt in anyone's mind all the myths the BKs have been telling about their own history. There was certainly no thought of any "God Shiva" within the BK side of the tree during the 1930s, 1940s and at least early 1950s.

Just when and how the concept was first introduced is still not clear.

How does this fit into the Advance Knowledge?

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Re: 1955, no mention of God Shiva

Post by sita » 04 Jun 2013

It is fair to report that by this period some kind of awareness of an "incorporeal" (bodiless) god or supreme separate from the Brahm element was emerging and that they visualised it in the form of a lingum. Clear mention is made of the difference between him and the home. But the BK definitely saw it as another form of Lekhraj Kirpalani as God Brahma the creator.
Lingum is Shivalingum.

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Re: 1955, no mention of God Shiva

Post by fluffy bunny » 04 Jun 2013

sita wrote:Lingum is Shivalingum.
And ...? What point are you making?

Of course, that is a true enough statement but there is no mention or consciousness that "this is Shiva" and separate from Lekhraj Kirpalani within the BKs are this time. The lingum form in the Brahm element is clearly presented as the incorporeal form of Lekhraj Kirpalani. That the two are the one and the same. They are still Lekhraj Kirpalani-centric at this point.

"Goddess Mother Saraswati", as they call Om Radhe, writes that, "one can turn to be even the very mother and Father of God himself! ... God Almighty Himself, the sole owner of Vaikunth (Deity World) as well as of Brahm (Infinite Godly Light)" and as part of the triumurti refers to "God Sri Shiv Shankera Mahadev" but not "Shiva Baba".

Lekhraj Kirpalani is still god the creator.

This may support or challenge information that you have been given by AIVV.

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Re: 1955, no mention of God Shiva

Post by Roy » 04 Jun 2013

fluffy bunny wrote:How does this fit into the Advance Knowledge?... This may support or challenge information that you have been given by AIVV.
None of this information clashes with the teachings of AIVV as far as i know. According to advance knowledge, the BKIVV did not come into being until 1951, when the role of Brahma(Baba Krishna) became more defined... this role not having begun until 1947, when Father Shiv first entered him in Karachi, and began narrating the Murli directly to the children, rather than Him dictating through a third party, to Dada Lekhraj. From then on, the teachings in the Murli slowly became more refined and subtle, such that the Brahmin children were instructed to remember the lingum. In reality, the lingum or Shivlingum, is a representation of Incorporeal God, but in the practical form of Ram ShivBaba or Shiv Shankar Bholenath... The point represents Father Shiv, and the lingum represents his permanent Chariot, Ram aka Shankar aka Prajapita, who becomes bodiless at the end, but whilst remaining in the body.

"(Incorporeal)ShivBaba(i.e. Father Shiv) is subtle(i.e. His stage is always incorporeal, whether in the body or not). Similarly Shankar(Prajapita-Ram) is also subtle(i.e. he attains the 100% soul conscious or incorporeal stage equal to Father Shiv's by the end of the Confluence Age... hence the name at practical Revelation, of Shiv Shankar Bholenath)." [Mu 29.09.77]

"Father had explained that Prajapita Brahma, who is a bodily being now(i.e. an effort maker soul)... he only becomes subtle(100% incorporeal, like Father Shiv at the end, whilst remaining in his corporeal body - this is the angelic stage of Shankar)." [Mu 23.01.84]

"When Prajapita Brahma who is corporeal now(i.e. making spiritual efforts), becomes complete(100% soul conscious), destroys all his sins, then he becomes an angel(called Shankar - a King within his old degraded body)." [Mu 20.01.78]

“The Father(Ram ShivBaba) gives His introduction... You (true Brahmins who have recognised my practical form of Father, played through Prajapita-Ram) used to worship My ling (in Bhakti marg); you used to call it Supreme Soul (paramatma). ‘Param’ and ‘atma’ make ‘parmatma’. But they(the BKs of the Confluence Age) do not know as to what he (paramatma) does. They (BKs) just say that He (God Father Shiv) is omnipresent(i.e. He is present within anyone who remembers Him) and beyond name and form (as they have also sent Him back to Paramdham, in 1969, and worship Him there). Then (if this is the case, that He has returned to the Soul World) it does not befit if you pour milk, etc. on it(i.e. the ling in Bhakti marg - symbolising the giving of basic knowledge to paramatma Shankar by the BKs, in 1969). He(paramatma Shankar) has a form, this is why they pour (milk) on him (in Bhakti marg, in remembrance of the giving of knowledge to him), don’t they? He (paramatma or the supreme human soul, Prajapita-Ram aka Shankar) cannot be called incorporeal (as he is the especially appointed Chariot, of Parampita Shiv, from 1969/70, until the end, when his stage does become completely incorporeal, and the form of Shiv Shankar Bholenath, the God of the Gita, is revealed to the world).” [Mu 18.06.09]


The BKs show the picture of the virtues and powers emanating from the Shivlingum; and they think that this is a representation solely of Father Shiv... But as is pointed out in advance knowledge... without the corporeal Chariot or murti, Father Shiv can do nothing... He cannot narrate knowledge, or reveal His qualities in a practical form, that can be witnessed by all. So even today, the BKs are still caught up in Bhakti thinking and practices, and so remain in the night period of the Confluence Age; which for Ram came to an end in 1976... the year of revelation of the Father.

Here is a nice Murli passage i came across today, that illustrates what i am trying to say...

“Now you children have to follow the Shrimat. If you do not follow, then remember that you will never be able to achieve a high post. The Shrimat has to be obtained only through the corporeal (medium). It cannot be obtained through inspiration. Many (children) develop the ego that we obtain (Shrimat) through (Incorporeal)ShivBaba(Father Shiv)’s inspiration (from the Soul World). If it is a matter of inspiration, then why did He not give the inspiration in the path of worship to become manmanaabhav ( become merged in my mind)? Here He has to come in corporeal form(i.e. Ram ShivBaba) to explain (the meaning of the Murlis, from 1976). How can He give His direction too without the corporeal (medium). Many children become displeased with the (practical) Father(Ram ShivBaba) and say , ‘we belong to (Incorporeal)ShivBaba(Father Shiv the point form)’. You (true Brahmin children) know that (Incorporeal)ShivBaba makes us Brahmins, through Brahma(Baba Krishna). First we become the children, don’t we? Then we get the power to understand, that we are getting the inheritance of the grandfather(Dada) through this one (to begin with at least). Dada(Father Shiv) Himself makes us His child through Brahma. He gives us teachings (only through the corporeal medium or Chariot).” (Revised Sakar Murli dated 08.08.07)

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Re: 1955, no mention of God Shiva

Post by fluffy bunny » 04 Jun 2013

When is the earliest, clear, guaranteed mention of "Shiva Baba" that we have? I know some of Jagdish Chander's works have it.

It's worth saying that these documents are, again, written in very formal, old fashioned English. Did Anand Kishore speak and write so well or was it someone else?
Roy wrote:None of this information clashes with the teachings of AIVV as far as i know. According to Advanced Knowledge, the BKIVV did not come into being until 1951, when the role of Brahma(Baba Krishna) became more defined... this role not having begun until 1947, when Father Shiv first entered him in Karachi, and began narrating the Murli directly to the children, rather than Him dictating through a third party, to Dada Lekhraj.
Well, I think I have a bit of a blank between 1947 and 1954/5 and so don't know what emerged during that period. That would equate to when they were in Karachi and before they destroyed all their notebooks and material prior to leaving for Abu.
From then on, the teachings in the Murli slowly became more refined and subtle, such that the Brahmin children were instructed to remember the lingum. In reality, the lingum or Shivlingum, is a representation of Incorporeal God, but in the practical form of Ram ShivBaba or Shiv Shankar Bholenath... The point represents Father Shiv, and the lingum represents his permanent Chariot, Ram aka Shankar aka Prajapita, who becomes bodiless at the end, but whilst remaining in the body.
If we accept what you are saying, the vision of the lingum could then have been, perhaps, describing an astral or otherwise non-physical body of someone else such as the astral body of the then recently decease first medium of Shiva (according to PBK theory)? However, the BKs still think it is one and same as Lekhraj Kirpalani.

Does that depend on if or when he died? DId he reincarnate straight away or hang around in the Subtle Regions? It appears that in this game you can make up whatever rules of existence you want and be in two places at the same time.

In the materials, the BKs also mention a "cotton wool" like figure in what the BKs now call the Subtle Regions.

The emergence of the knowledge appears to have been a long drawn out process, perhaps fighting BK mentality all the way. I have to wonder what they did with the rest of time during this period.

I mean, if I was "God" and I came to earth and possessed someone, I think I would say something like, "look, you won't understanding this but get a pencil and right it all down and then I will explain it later!" and encourage them to keep step by step records. It's not as if the "facts" and so magical, mystical and hard to grasp.

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Re: 1955, no mention of God Shiva

Post by Roy » 04 Jun 2013

fluffy bunny wrote:If we accept what you are saying, the vision of the lingum could then have been, perhaps, describing an astral or otherwise non-physical body of someone else such as the astral body of the then recently decease first medium of Shiva (according to PBK theory)? However, the BKs still think it is one and same as Lekhraj Kirpalani.
Was there a vision of the lingum, or did Father Shiv simply instruct the children to remember the soul in the form of a lingum on the forehead, the size of a thumb print? In other words, all souls were thought of as the size of a thumb(print), there was no intention that the children should think of anything else but the soul in this case... Hence, why to this day, the BKs show the Shivlingum to represent Father Shiv... they believe His powers and virtues will be expressed and witnessed without the need for a Chariot. But in this practical world we live in, a body is needed to express these qualities through. A soul without a body is said to be non-living, and this goes for Father Shiv too. I don't think the BKs have ever associated the lingum with Dada Lekraj as such... The lingum to them is the large form representation of Father Shiv alone.
fluffy bunny wrote:Does that depend on if or when he died? DId he reincarnate straight away or hang around in the Subtle Regions? It appears that in this game you can make up whatever rules of existence you want and be in two places at the same time.
Prajapita-Ram does not lose even a day of corporeal life from the cycle, and so would never have a subtle body like Brahma Baba Krishna.

"Father sits and explains, ‘whom do I enter into (to play the role of Father)?’ I enter into the body of that soul only, which takes complete 84 births (in corporeal form). Not even a day less." [Mu 15.10.69]
fluffy bunny wrote:In the materials, the BKs also mention a "cotton wool" like figure in what the BKs now call the Subtle Regions.
I believe this is a separate issue, and this subtle Brahma that was witnessed in visions, is the representation of Brahma Baba Krishna's complete stage at the end... although the BKs weren't aware that he would have to leave the body to achieve it.
fluffy bunny wrote:The emergence of the knowledge appears to have been a long drawn out process, perhaps fighting BK mentality all the way. I have to wonder what they did with the rest of time during this period.
The souls that were left in the Yagya after 1942, were not the souls who were particularly attracted to knowledge. Brahma Baba Krishna was the attraction, and the love of the lap of the sweet mother was experienced, up until 1969. The knowledge would have to be introduced slowly, to begin to break these souls away from their Bhakti habits.

“Brahma-Vishnu-Shankar are the deities of the Subtle Region(i.e. the world of subtle effort making - not the Subtle Regions which don't exist as such). Prajapita Brahma is certainly required here (in practical corporeal form until the end). There are a lot of children, i.e. Brahmakumar-Kumaris of Prajapita Brahma. Until one becomes the child of (Prajapita)Brahma, they cannot become (true or complete) Brahmins... how else can they obtain the inheritance from ShivBaba (unless the corporeal form is here until the end)? There cannot be reproduction (just) through the womb(i.e. lap of Brahma Baba Krishna). 'Mukhh Vanshavali'(mouth-born progeny) is also famous. You (PBKs) will say that we are the mouth born progeny of Prajapita Brahma. They (BKs) are followers of gurus(Dadis, since 1969, when the mother Brahma Baba Krishna became subtle). Here (in the PBK Yagya or AIVV) you call only ‘One’ as Father-Teacher-Satguru. That too you do not call him(Prajapita Brahma as Father-teacher-Satguru), as that Incorporeal ShivBaba is also there (inside him). It is that incorporeal (being known as Father Shiv) who is the teacher, and who narrates (advance) knowledge through the corporeal medium (Prajapita Brahma, from 1976).” [Mu 02.02.06]
fluffy bunny wrote:I mean, if I was "God" and I came to earth and possessed someone, I think I would say something like, "look, you won't understanding this but get a pencil and right it all down and then I will explain it later!" and encourage them to keep step by step records. It's not as if the "facts" and so magical, mystical and hard to grasp.
One of the reasons that not all of the knowledge is imparted at once, is because it is the knowedge itself that reveals the Father. If it was all out there, anyone with a good memory could pose as God, as some try to do. But Ram ShivBaba, always has something new to reveal and/or clarify. Also, the drama cannot work this way, with all the intricate shootings that have to take place. Baba says i come in 1976, to give the fruit of Bhakti... not 1936/7...

"When the Iron Age ends (in the intellect of Prajapita-Ram, in 1976, as a result of studying the Murli for 5-6 years, from 1969/70), then Bhakti would also end (for him first of all)... only then will God (Shiva) come and meet (in the form of the Father, through him) because He(Ram ShivBaba) alone gives the fruits of Bhakti (by revealing the deep secrets locked within the Sakar Murlis, that allow the accurate churning of Gyan to commence for the true Brahmins, or PBKs). He (Prajapita-Ram) is called the Sun of Knowledge. The Moon of knowledge, the Sun of Knowledge and the lucky stars of knowledge. OK, the (corporeal) Father (Prajapita-Ram) is the Sun of Knowledge (i.e. this role is played through Prajapita Brahma, from 1976, by Father Shiv). Then the mother (Brahma Baba Krishna) should be the Moon of knowledge. So, the body (of Brahma Baba Krishna) in which He (Shiv) has entered (at this time, before 1969) is the Moon of knowledge mother (Incognito Jagadamaba), and the rest of the children are lucky stars. In this way, Jagdamba(Om Radhe Mama) is also a lucky star because she is also a child, isn’t she? Even among the stars, one (Prajapita-Ram aka Shankar) shines the most. Similarly, even here they are numberwise. Those are the Sun, the Moon and the stars of the sky, and here it is a matter of knowledge(Shankar is no 1 in knowledge). Just as they are the rivers of water and these (children) are the rivers of knowledge, which have emerged from the Ocean of Knowledge (Father Shiv, and will all merge with Him at the end)." [Mu 11.01.08]

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Re: 1955, no mention of God Shiva

Post by sita » 04 Jun 2013

And ...? What point are you making?
From the path of Bhakti ling is associated with Shiva. The ling is the memorial of the corporel in nirkari stage, like with no organs at all, so we have the introduction of the incorporeal stage. Shankar from the path of Bhakti is also famous as Shiva.

I think it is even in favor to the PBKs as another name ShivShankar, separate from Brahma is introduced. In another materials it was said that Brahma is incarnation of Vishnu. These are like one and the same and this is separate. The name Shiv is added to Shankar, it is not said ShivVishnu or ShivBrahma. Still we don't know if they had considered Shiv and Shankar to be separate or one.

I think we can search for ShivBaba when the conception about the soul being point of light has been developed by Mama. Then Shiv is also realized as point of light soul with the name Shiva and when this point comes in corporeal body it becomes ShivBaba.

It is said that Murlis had started from Karachi, but we don't know if they had started still from the first year. And if they had started from the first year, we don't know what knowledge they contained.

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Re: 1955, no mention of God Shiva

Post by fluffy bunny » 05 Jun 2013

I have not seen any mention of a "point of light" and we are long past Karachi by now. 1955, they are already in Mount Abu and starting to go out evangelise and get money.
Roy wrote:Was there a vision of the lingum, or did Father Shiv simply instruct the children to remember the soul in the form of a lingum ...
The word used is "we have visualized", see below. This is all I have had the time to copy out so far.

One of the bits that interest me is where she say, "Lord Brahma as having become lustful to his daughter re-incarnate Saraswati".
1954 "Second Congress of World Religion for Peace" conference was organized by the Ananai-Kyo, a small religious cult in Japan. With a message dated 22nd October 1954 from "Goddess Mother Saraswati" aka Om Radhe

"Goddess Mother Saraswati" writes that, "one can turn to be even the very mother and Father of God himself! ... God Almighty Himself, the sole owner of Vaikunth (Deity World) as well as of Brahm (Infinite Godly Light)" and as part of the triumurti refers to "God Sri Shiv Shankera Mahadev" but not "Shiva Baba".

"And at the age of about 60, when he became God Brahma, (one of the Trinity God Almighty), he wound up his jewellery business immediately and began to deal in jewels of vicelessness, of peace, of true knowledge of 'Self' and of the 'Father-of-the-Self".

In her original capital letters ...

"HOLY RELIGION-HEADS ARE TO HELP THE MOST BELOVED GOD Father Brahma, THE SEED OF HUMANITY, CORPOREAL OF INCORPOREAL GOD, WITH SOUL-CONSCIOUSNESS TO RE-ESTABLISH Golden Aged DEITY DYNASTY WITH SUPREME SANCTITY, PEACE AND PLENTY ..."

"Those degraded men of today, diving deep into the ditch of the poisonous sensuous pleasures malign their Lord Brahma as having become lustful to his daughter re-incarnate Saraswati."

Around page 114, they go on to say,

"We all are souls, We all are children of one Supreme Soul. Our Soul-Father is one God Almighty." "This Supreme Being performs the function of Creation in the incognito Corporeal Form of Brahma in the beginning of the Universe at such a time. He then sustains, or promotes it, in Subtle Form (of which there are two Corporeal forms of Lakshmi & Narain) and finally destroys it in the Subtle Form of Shankar ...".

"... then comes our Father, our dearest Daddy. He is the Hero of this World Drama, who re-opens the play Himself ... when the glory of Father Almighty was unveiled to his relatives, 'God', 'God' were the words that slipped sweet wonder from their mouths. In this meaning, he started religious discourses, first at his own home where came rushing men, women and children attracted by the sweet versions of this sweet Daddy, the Flute-Player of Godly Knowledge."

"The world philanthropist God Brahma, devoted all his wealth to finance this institution which was significantly named as 'Rajasva Asvamedh Avinashi Gyan Yagya' (A hermitage for total surrender of all one's vices to gain complete Godly Sovereignty through Godly Knolwedge). Here did the Creator and the World-Preceptor start to play the role of the founder".

"we, Brahma Kumaris, or otherwise called Bharat Mother Shakti Incarnations".

"The Supreme Soul, as we have ourselves visualized, is of the shape of Shiv-Linga, a symbol, very widely worshipped in India since the beginning of Copper-age. He is self-luminous and His abode in in the Infinite Light" ... "His birth is not from the womb of a mother. He reveals Himself to an old man. And making the brain of this man the seat of His glory, he adopts the mouth of this man as His Oracle Orifice" ... and "I am purified Soul, the child of Super Soul (God)".

"... the Lord has come again on earth in human form and has this time made Himself known as DAYANANDA or the Lord of Compassion. In ignoring it and not caring to publish it, you yourself stand in the way of the world's liberation ..."

"God's Might and His essence is, however, omnipresent in this corporeal world" ... "all this world being the creation of God". There are mentions of "Dady Vishnu sustain[ing] the Deity Dynasty" and "Nirvana stage" ...

"GOD HIMSELF RE-INCARNATED (in subtle form) under the name and title of God Shri Vishnu (Chaturbhuj) in his would be dualised corporeal forms of Sri Lakshmi and Sri Narain".

"GOD HIMSELF RE-INCARNATED (in subtle form) under the name and title of God Father Adi Deva Triumurti Guru Brahma the Creator, Corporeal of Incorporeal God, the SEED of the entire human World"

"These gentle first flowers of now humanity, most of whom belonged to families of millionaires left their hearths and homes and renounced their vicious wordly connections (for they were not allowed to live in their own homest, specially the ladies, except as dolls sensuousness) to adopt this viceless God-incarnate (Lekhraj Kirpalani) as their Saviour God Father" ... the "soulconscious, Sahaj-Gyan-Yogi, Swarajya-Yogi, Karma-Yogi, Self-Abnegating Bharat MATA SHAKTI RE-INCARNATIONS".

And they sign off ... "Compliments of:- Trimurti God Guru Brahma Kumaris".
The souls that were left in the Yagya after 1942, were not the souls who were particularly attracted to knowledge. Brahma Baba Krishna was the attraction, and the love of the lap of the sweet mother was experienced, up until 1969. The Knowledge would have to be introduced slowly, to begin to break these souls away from their Bhakti habits.
I think I agree with you on the first half, they were also enjoying a comfortable life. I am not so sure about "have to be introduced slowly". Remembering the Sakar Murlis ... "repetitively" is the word I would have to use.

So, basically, what you are saying is they were really dumb, infatuated with Lekhraj Kirpalani and just hanging on because they had no where else to go, nothing else to do. They had be to told again and again and again. We used to say about all the "Krishna is not god stuff" ... which makes more sense now ... "they beat Hindu Bhakti into us to beat it out of us again".

It makes you wonder about people like Janki Kripalani who does not appear to have figured at all in the development of the knowledge and was in the background during all this period. I suppose quite a large proportion of them just did what any Indian woman of their age would be doing ... cooking, cleaning, washing.

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Re: 1955, no mention of God Shiva

Post by warrior » 05 Jun 2013

fluffy bunny wrote:I have not seen any mention of a "point of light" and we are long past Karachi by now. 1955, they are already in Mount Abu ...
Yes its true. In todays Murli it says Soul is a Star. There is no original date in the Murli, but surely is a Sakar Murli spoken in Abu. (uploaded in Murli section).
sita wrote: I think we can search for ShivBaba when the conception about the soul being point of light has been developed by Mama.
If Mama developed this idea she copied the idea from Sakar Murlis later on in Abu. Before that it was only mentioned Infinite Divine Light.

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Re: 1955, no mention of God Shiva

Post by warrior » 05 Jun 2013

fluffy bunny wrote:
1954 "Second Congress of World Religion for Peace" conference was organized by the Ananai-Kyo, a small religious cult in Japan. With a message dated 22nd October 1954 from "Goddess Mother Saraswati" aka Om Radhe
Thanks for this information. It becomes more clear as why they destroyed the early data of Yagya. Just simple, Om Radhe's writings and Lekhraj's churning were clashing with the Sakar Murlis.

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Re: 1955, no mention of God Shiva

Post by Roy » 05 Jun 2013

fluffy bunny wrote:So, basically, what you are saying is they were really dumb, infatuated with Lekhraj Kirpalani and just hanging on because they had no where else to go, nothing else to do. They had be to told again and again and again. We used to say about all the "Krishna is not god stuff" ... which makes more sense now ... "they beat Hindu Bhakti into us to beat it out of us again".
I wouldn't put it quite in the terms you have, but they are/were not intellectual souls... the intellectual souls left after a few years, because there wasn't the knowledge to sustain them. These souls were sustained by the visions and experiences they had during the first few years of the Yagya, and the love of Dada Lekhraj Brahma Baba, who they believed was God incarnate. This lack of intellectual prowess included Dada Lekhraj Brahma Baba(child Krishna) himself, who also did not really study the Murlis as such... the basic concepts got through, but the understanding of what was actually going on the Confluence Age eluded him as well. This is why Brahma Baba is represented in the form of a Bull... animals have inert intellects and don't think, unlike Prajapita-Ram who studies the Murlis intensely for 5-6 years, from 1969/70, and becomes self realised through this process, in 1976... the year of revelation of the Father, and the beginning of the Purushottam Confluence Age. The first 40 years of the Confluence Age(the night path) come to an end at this time, especially for him. These Bhakti souls(or incomplete Brahmins) go from Bhakti to a more subtle form of Bhakti, which is where they remain... Father Shiv comes in Shankar and narrates the story of advance knowledge to Parvati(the Brahmin children) to end even this subtle form of Bhakti... but this takes 50 years to achieve.

"There (at Amarnath, where the ice Shivalingam is situated in the Cave shrine), they show the picture of Shiv. Well, in whom is Shiv sitting? Shiv and Shankar are shown. Shiv sat in Shankar(Prajapita-Ram) and narrated the story (of advanced knowledge to Parvati or Sita - meaning His true children). This is the account(i.e. the eternal relationship of Shiv and Shankar in the Drama)." [Mu 06.10.76]

"They say that Shankar narrated a story to Parvati there. Well what kind of degradation did Parvati undergo that he sat and narrated the story to her? Actually, you all are Parvatis; you pass through the cycle of birth and death(i.e. pass through the cycle of faith and doubt in the Confluence Age)... and you are listening to the story(i.e the Advance Knowledge, narrated through Shankar) to achieve true salvation(i.e. liberation from ignorance and doubts)." [Mu 05.09.08]

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Re: 1955, no mention of God Shiva

Post by fluffy bunny » 05 Jun 2013

I have no argument against most of what you are proposing but it is still an open question depending on the rest of it happened, e.g. the final Destruction, Virendra Dev Dixit not dying, BKs and PBKs getting together etc. I still think it's a mad hare race.

I just wish the PBKs would calmly and patiently help the BKs move on a bit and apply a little more ethics to their religion ... wind it down, bring it back to earth and stop washing all their money. However, as you say, they're not likely to because they are full of themselves and enjoying things as they are too much.

The PBKs should publish some kind of simple timeline that's easy to follow for both the history and their future.

I am reading/investigating something else at present and it also speaks of the satisfaction of the ecstatic Raslila dances they used to perform, with Lekhraj Kirpalani in the middle of them playing Krishna. This ties in with conversations with old non-BK Sindis who were alive at the time who said the gatherings were quite ecstatic, meaning the women made a lot of noise and got excited, and this was one of the real reasons for the complaints about them. Trance inducing chanting and ecstatic dances were and are quite common in India but seen as low class types of affairs which was why they were disliked.

The early days were not as the BKs try and portray them in many ways, even if 99% of the BKs swallow the current party line ... hook, line and Shankar. (... that's a pun on "hook, line and sinker" for any non-English speaking, non-fishermen).

What they are doing, both from the Western liberal front and the Indian "Islamic faction", as the PBKs would call it, is to portray the past as an ideal of how they want the present to be and be seen.

Sadly, I am afraid neither we nor the PBKs are touching the majorities of the BKs in India who are being repeatedly force fed a doctored version ... but where we do many to touch them, I see some individuals reacting with denial and trying to blocking things out, but others readjusting and revising their own personal history of the BKWSU.

Few appear to find it easy to accept they beloved Dadis have lied outrightly to them and conspired together in order to promote themselves blocking out the sun.

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Re: 1955, no mention of God Shiva

Post by arjun » 06 Jun 2013

“शिव अर्थात् बिन्दी। आत्मा ही बिन्दी है ना। स्टार क्या है? कितना छोटा है? ऐसे थोड़े ही आत्माएं ऊपर जायेंगी तो बड़ी हो जायेंगी। यह तो भ्रकुटी के बीच में निशानी दिखाते हैं। कहते भी हैं भ्रकुटी के बीच में चमकता है अजब सितारा। तो जरूर भ्रकुटी में इतनी छोटी आत्मा ही रह सकेगी। तो जैसे आत्मा है वैसे परमात्मा। परन्तु वन्डर है जो हर एक इतनी छोटी आत्मा में सभी जन्मों का पार्ट भरा हुआ है। जो कभी घिसता नहीं है, फार एवर चलता रहेगा। कितनी गुह्य बातें हैं। आगे कब यह बातें सुनाई थी क्या? आगे तो कहते थे लिंग रूप है, अंगुष्ठाकार है। पहले ही अगर यह बातें सुनाते तो तुम समझ नहीं सकते। अभी बुद्धि में बैठता है। स्टार तो सब कहेंगे। साक्षात्कार भी स्टार का होता है।“(ब्रह्माकुमारियों द्वारा प्रकाशित रिवाइज़्ड साकार मुरली दिनांक २२.०२.०८, पृ.२ एवं ३)

“Shiv means point. A soul itself is a point, isn’t it? What is a star? How small is it? It is not as if the souls would go up and grow in size. It is a sign (of the soul) that is shown in the middle of the forehead. It is even said that a wonderful star shines in the middle of the forehead. So, certainly only such a small soul would be able to live in the middle of the forehead. So, as the soul, so is the Supreme Soul. But it is a wonder that the part of all the births is recorded in every such small soul which never gets erased. It will go on for ever. These are so secret matters. Were such matters narrated earlier? Earlier it used to be said that He (i.e. God) is in the form of a ling; He is in the shape of a thumb. Had these matters been narrated earlier you would not have been able to understand. Now it fits into your intellect. Everyone would say that it is a star. Even the visions that people have are of stars only.” (Revised Sakar Murli dated 22.02.08, pg.2&3 published by BKs in Hindi, narrated by ShivBaba through Brahma Baba; translated by a PBK; the words within brackets in the English version have been added by the translator to clarify the meaning)

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Re: 1955, no mention of God Shiva

Post by fluffy bunny » 06 Jun 2013

arjun wrote:Had these matters been narrated earlier you would not have been able to understand. Now it fits into your intellect
Who do you think the speaker is address when they say, "you" and when?

To put it into a PBK context, is it a specific person, or a specific group of people?

Funnily enough, I think one could take a child from India, America, anywhere and tell them they were a soul and the essence of a soul is a star and they would immediately accept it if they were told by an adult ... because kids just do. I don't even think it is unique.

Wouldn't the children in Om Mandli have done so?
  • Why did *they* have to have their heads filled with nonsense about Lekhraj Kirpalani being God for 20 years (approx), only to spend the next 20 years having it removed from their heads?

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Re: 1955, no mention of God Shiva

Post by Roy » 06 Jun 2013

fluffy bunny wrote:Who do you think the speaker is address when they say, "you" and when? To put it into a PBK context, is it a specific person, or a specific group of people?
It is my understanding that when the word "you" is being used, Father Shiv is sometimes referring to Prajapita-Ram in particular, but otherwise, to all the Brahmin children who will come to understand Father Shiv's role through him, that commences, in 1969/70... In other words, He is not talking to the souls who are physically sat before him at the time of narration, the children who love the lap of Brahma Baba Krishna... He is addressing the souls who will return to the Yagya in their next birth... the souls like Prajapita-Ram, who left in the beginning due to the lack of knowledge at that time. So if this is accurate... it appears He is saying to Prajapita aka Virendra Dev Dixit ji, that the knowledge of the soul wasn't spoken of at the beginning of the Yagya, because even you wouldn't have understood this point properly at that time; as your intellect wouldn't have been subtle enough without the supporting knowledge to churn on, to help you to truly understand, and accept this concept.
fluffy bunny wrote:Funnily enough, I think one could take a child from India, America, anywhere and tell them they were a soul and the essence of a soul is a star and they would immediately accept it if they were told by an adult ... because kids just do. I don't even think it is unique. Wouldn't the children in Om Mandli have done so? Why did *they* have to have their heads filled with nonsense about Lekhraj Kirpalani being God for 20 years (approx), only to spend the next 20 years having it removed from their heads?
It is said in advance knowledge, that the early days of the Yagya were about reinforcing Bhakti, not narrating the knowledge as we know it today. I think this means, that the children needed to have their beliefs reinforced, mainly through visions, in order to gain their faith. For these are old souls, with deep sanskars of Bhakti... concepts like the soul being a point of light, probably wouldn't fit easily into their intellects. A child may be believe it if an adult tells him that he is a pinpoint of light, but will there be a deep appreciation of the concept and what it means. So only when their faith and trust has been won, and the children begin to become a little more spiritually mature, does the more subtle knowledge get slowly introduced over the years.

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