Point of light or star shaped form only arose in 1962

To discuss the BK and PBK versions of the factual Yagya history from the beginning.
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Point of light or star shaped form only arose in 1962

Post by fluffy bunny » 17 Dec 2013

The latest in the slowly unravelling mystery of the Brahma Kumaris historical revision and global deception ... the more independently minded BK Robin makes an interesting revelation of his latest findings on their Kumari real history, (see below).

It turns out that the point of light or star shaped form of their god only arose in 1962 ... not 1936 ... and the window for when God Shiva was introduced into the religion closes to somewhere between 1955 and 1958.

Robin goes further to point out the obvious ... that means Om Radhe achieved her alleged status of being reborn as Radhe in the Golden Age and to marry the re-incarnated Lekhraj Kirpalani in order to become Goddess Lakshmi, within a mere two or so years of having "accurate knowledge" and so, therefore, being able to have real BK-style Raja Yoga.

The status of Radhi Pokardas Rajwani within the religion has taken on bizarre turns in recent years, promoted by individuals who never knew her nor read her original works. It's becoming even more inflated than she was in person. And yet, in the BKWSU's teachings, their god spirit often addresses "those who had taken 84 births" failing to account how, at the time, Radhi Pokardas Rajwani had only taken 83 births ... because she was to die prematurely in 1965.

Perhaps it's a big cover up to hide things the BK leaders don't want its followers to know and would shake any right minded individual.
robin wrote:Post subject: Re: Yagya history : Shrouded in mystery.!!! Dec 17, 2013

'Thumb shaped' did not mean 'thumb sized' I understand from chats last October to Atam Prakash in charge of publications and printing since 1958, under Jagdish originally, and who knew BB for some years.

As we know from British Library original documents, the 'shape' of God went from being unlimited as in Infinite Divine Light, (1943 BL) an incorporeal something who human beings were superior to as he did not have much of a role, to this description in 1949 : "World Drama rotates automatically and unceasingly with the aid of eternal power of Almighty God the Supreme Soul"…mind you the same Divine Decree also talks about the pivotal role played by World Almighty Authority Prajapati God Brahma.

Atam remarked that the pictures printed of the Supreme Soul from 1958 were 'thumb shaped' but not 'thumb sized': that is the shape was described but not the size. He also pointed out that the point of light Supreme Soul concept came in 1962, so then he had to put a little star in the middle of each 'thumb shaped' picture...

So it seems that Mama, passing in 1965, became Lakshmi, with only 2-3 years of meditation on the point form ... of interest.

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Re: Point of light or star shaped form only arose in 1962

Post by Roy » 18 Dec 2013

robin wrote:So it seems that Mama, passing in 1965, became Lakshmi, with only 2-3 years of meditation on the point form ... of interest.
"Father comes and transforms our intellect from stone to elixir-like(paaras) in 50 years." [Mu 05.06.74]

"Whatever sins you have committed in 2500 years, can be burnt in 50 years to become Satopradhan." [Mu 03.03.74]

"Many children are going in advance. One should not feel bad. They will go and receive. Time is also required to receive. Mother(Mama) and Father(Brahma Baba) must depart first, is not it (to play their roles in the Advance Party, through their subtle bodies)?" [Mu 27.02.73]

"First and foremost Mama(Om Radhe) achieved the best position... she achieved the karmatit stage... she transcended all bodily sorrows (but hadn't completed her studies - i.e. she wasn't complete in knowledge)." [Mu 09.05.66]

"Your Mama has ascended to the Subtle Regions. Her karmic accounts of the physical world ended (but she wasn't complete in knowledge at this time)." [Mu 21.06.66]

"Mama has left. That actor went to perform another act. There is no need to be confused, to cry or to become sorrowful in this. She went to do higher service (through her subtle body in the Advance Party)." [Mu 25.06.65]

"Although Mama(Om Radhe) doesn’t possess a (corporeal) body, she continues to make efforts (through her subtle body). She goes out on service. She enters into the bodies of children and shows the path to the sinful to become pure." [Mu 22.07.72]

"If Mama(Om Radhe) and (Brahma)Baba(Krishna) enter into someone (in their subtle bodies after their physical deaths), then they can sit there itself and study through them." [Mu 27.08.05]

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Re: Point of light or star shaped form only arose in 1962

Post by fluffy bunny » 18 Dec 2013

Do you believe/does the PBK teach that she and Lekhraj Kirpalani's ghosts enter/entered into PBKs ... to continue learning AK, and carry out service?

Is the PBK view she has not been reborn as the BKs think? The BKs think, from memory, she was reborn as some Nepali royalty and is running around leading the Advance Party of souls who are going to rebuild the world. Not surprisingly, we do not see much evidence of them. 23 years to go ...

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Re: Point of light or star shaped form only arose in 1962

Post by Roy » 18 Dec 2013

fluffy bunny wrote:Do you believe/does the PBK teach that she and Lekhraj Kirpalani's ghosts enter/entered into PBKs ... to continue learning AK, and carry out service?
Yes, this is taught by the AIVV, and is also my belief.
fluffy bunny wrote:Is the PBK view she has not been reborn as the BKs think? The BKs think, from memory, she was reborn as some Nepali royalty and is running around leading the Advance Party of souls who are going to rebuild the world. Not surprisingly, we do not see much evidence of them. 23 years to go ...
The Nepalise Royal Family no longer exists, since 2008... and there was the shooting back in 2001 by the King's son.

Here is a quote from a clarification Murli...

Audio Cassette No.522, dated 12.11.02 at Bangalore Clarification of Avyakt message dated 24.06.02

"Where did she take birth? Nayi paal; the place of the people who sustain the new world, Mama has taken birth there. Why has she taken birth there? (Someone said – to sustain the new world) No, no. There is a memorial of Pashupatinath there. Whose memorial? Pashupati. He becomes the Lord/husband of the souls, which play a part like the animals. What? He becomes their husband/Lord in Nepal. Mama goes and plays a part in that Nepal. The part of sustaining the new world. Which new world? Mama plays a special part from 1976, in the new world of Advance Party, which begins from 1976. But it has been said – she is now under a veil. What does it mean? She is not revealed before everyone.

... although Mama and Baba have left their body, but both of them have entered some or the other Brahmin child and are playing their part in the corporeal world..."


Pashupatinath

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Re: Point of light or star shaped form only arose in 1962

Post by fluffy bunny » 18 Dec 2013

These are separate issues but what is the difference between Pashupati, "Lord of animals", and Prajapati "Lord of creatures", as Lekhraj Kirpalani was first known? Generally it is thought Pashupati related to Shiva and Prajapati related to Vishnu.

Back on topic, how could the Om Mandlites be advancing, clearing their karma, and purifying themselves ... when they did not have accurate knowledge of the form of their god and, therefore, an accurate connection until 1962? And what could Om Radhe really achieved in 2 to 3 years during when she was suffering terminal illness?

It strikes me the deification of Radhi Pokardas Rajwani, especially by people know never even knew her, is a little obscene. I am thinking that in the beginning, it must have started as something of a shock or trauma caused by her death where they have to inflate her importance and it's just run away with exaggeration ever since. I do also wonder which realm such souls must be in.

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Re: Point of light or star shaped form only arose in 1962

Post by Roy » 18 Dec 2013

fluffy bunny wrote:These are separate issues but what is the difference between Pashupati, "Lord of animals", and Prajapati "Lord of creatures", as Lekhraj Kirpalani was first known? Generally it is thought Pashupati related to Shiva and Prajapati related to Vishnu.
Good questions! Here are points from Advance Knowledge on the subject...

"Paaras itself means the one who applies the colour of his company to others, but he is not coloured by the company of others. That is about the Father(Ram ShivBaba) alone. There is no such stone which turns iron into gold on being touched. It is a memorial of Parasnath Himself(Pashupatinath) at present in the Confluence Age... that all the souls who come in connection and contact [with Him], the more they come in His connection and contact truthfully and not untruthfully, the more they will become true gold." [Varta 621]

Student: What is meant by the Daksh Prajapati Yagya?
Baba: Daksh means trained; what? For example, there is a family, an institution or some management; so, the one who runs the management is called a manager. For example there is hotel management; are they given training or not? They are given [the training]. So, some managers are very clever, they become perfectly trained, so they are called daksh (proficient). The word daksh is the root for the word ‘dikshit’. So, it is about training. Just as training takes place in the world, [this is] a training to run the human world. Someone is called a head who manages 2 billion human beings in the human world. For example, Christ; he is a Prajapita for his group. He is efficient in administrating his group. Similarly there are number wise (of different capacities) other religious fathers too who are proficient in administrating a small or big group of the human world. But there is a Father of all of them who is called the Father of the fathers. He is a Father of the religious fathers as well, The one who is accepted by every religion . He is 100 percent proficient; he is trained. He is proved to be trained in controlling the entire generation of the world and in controlling them easily and happily; he is called Vishvapita (the Father of the world). Otherwise, there have been big [personalities] in the world who wished to get this title… that we will be the controller of the entire world. Alexander, Mussolini, Hitler, Napoleon; they all have been violent. They desired to control all the human beings of the world on the basis of physical power [and] violence. That is not efficiency. They were unsuccessful. Only one Daksh Prajapita is praised who is counted as the head of the entire mankind. He is named Daksh Prajapati in the scriptures. Is the Father first or the husband first? The Father, the one who gives birth is first. The one who controls, the one who safeguards is called husband (pati). He becomes the husband of the world (Vishwapati) later on. So, the perfect stage is praised in the scriptures as Daksh Prajapati. [Varta 902]


So i would agree that Pashupati relates to the role of Shiva through the corporeal body of Ram aka Prajapita, turning humans in deities through Knowledge and His company, after 1976. Prajapati relates to the part of Ram's soul once he becomes complete and is in control of the entire world... It is a part that also corresponds with him being the no 1 Vishnu soul, the sustainer of Heaven or Vaikunth aka Vishnupuri.
fluffy bunny wrote:Back on topic, how could the Om Mandlites be advancing, clearing their karma, and purifying themselves ... when they did not have accurate knowledge of the form of their god and, therefore, an accurate connection until 1962? And what could Om Radhe really achieved in 2 to 3 years during when she was suffering terminal illness?
It is said that Om Radhe had a sharp intellect, and passed in basic knowledge. When she died her painful death through cancer she cleared the last of her accounts of the body... but she would also have to recognise the true Father and His teachings to finally become complete at the end. In general though, i believe most Brahmins don't clear their accounts through remembrance, they clear them through punishments at the end. Most souls even with knowledge make very poor efforts, and it is only the 108 who become complete with little or no punishment as a result of their powerful remembrance... the rest have to be punished to become complete. It is Shanakar aka Ram who sits in powerful remembrance for 40 to 50 years... from 1969 to 2018, and completely burns his heavy karmas away and thus receives absolutely no punishment at the end... everyone else is numberwise in this. Even the 16000 don't come anywhere near to clearing their karmic accounts through remembrance alone... this is why from the Copper Age onwards they will not become Kings for birth after birth, and will only be born into a Royal family for the most part.
fluffy bunny wrote:It strikes me the deification of Radhi Pokardas Rajwani, especially by people know never even knew her, is a little obscene. I am thinking that in the beginning, it must have started as something of a shock or trauma caused by her death where they have to inflate her importance and it's just run away with exaggeration ever since. I do also wonder which realm such souls must be in.
Yes, she is worshipped by the BKs in a way that is not according to Shrimat, and they thus do the shooting of the worship of deities in the Copper Age onwards. She was the no 2 effort maker in the Yagya, only surpassed by Brahma Baba... but it has to be remembered that there where three souls in the beginning of the Yagya who even taught Mama and Baba... and it is these 5 souls together who constitute the role of Vishnu at the end. In Bhakti i believe she is remembered for the roles she plays through other soul's bodies after her death, not the role she played through her own... just as in Brahma Baba's case. These subtle bodied souls live in the corporeal world but are floating around, rather than being grounded like us in corporeal bodies. They can go where they like whenever they like.

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Re: Point of light or star shaped form only arose in 1962

Post by fluffy bunny » 18 Dec 2013

That's all very logical enough ... within the framework of the Knowledge ... however, it's bound to make the BKs scream and panic and runaround like headless chickens.

How then could Lekhraj Kirpalani have had visions of stars leaving bodies in 1936, as the BKs say?

That's probably yet another story they have taken or borrowed from somewhere else.

Why, if it was true, did they then spend 30 years realising it had some significance. What form or nature did they perceive the soul to be before then?

We know that from about 1955, they started to perceive some kind of subtle figure or body ... what lead to the thumb shaped concept ... but even then they thought the other one was a manifestation of the great Lekhraj Kirpalani, so fixated they were on him.

We still have no explanation of how and by whom they came to think and accept this other was some other being and how it came to be named Shiva.

As with India, most live on the low levels of the plains and few venture into the higher altitudes of the Himalayas, or can imagine what they are like ... even though they see them from a distance and are indebted for their lives to the waters and nutrients that flow down from them daily.

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Re: Point of light or star shaped form only arose in 1962

Post by sita » 18 Dec 2013

How then could Lekhraj Kirpalani have had visions of stars leaving bodies in 1936, as the BKs say?
Why not? First it comes the vision and then its meaning, its explanation. It is also said in the Murli that if someone would have a vision of a star he would not be able to understand anything.

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Re: Point of light or star shaped form only arose in 1962

Post by fluffy bunny » 18 Dec 2013

Why? There's no evidence of the story, nor concept, in the early documents, which begs another question ... if they did not know who and what the real self was, and they did not know who their god was, what his form and location were ... how were they able to have accurate Yoga?

Therefore they weren't have any Yoga until around 1962. It's funny but, for me, whenever Janki says "Baba" the image I have in my mind is Lekhraj Kirpalani.

What were they practising during this period, if anything?


I guess when you say, "he would not be able to understand anything", you mean Lekhraj Kirpalani as he so caught up in his own Bhakti, and the Bhakti of himself as God.

If he saw it, what did he think it was?

Most other people would have no problem in understanding. Indeed, as Robin point out, it even says similar in the Gita and other scripture, had Lekhraj Kirpalani any knowledge of them.

The problem is, we have been told so many lies and half-truths by the BKs one cannot accept *anything* they say without addition evidence. For me, it is far more like it was just a story made up by Jagdish Chandler taken from somewhere else.

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Re: Point of light or star shaped form only arose in 1962

Post by Roy » 18 Dec 2013

fluffy bunny wrote:How then could Lekhraj Kirpalani have had visions of stars leaving bodies in 1936, as the BKs say?
I am not sure about the points or stars leaving or entering bodies... but there is this Murli point on the subject...

"Baba(Dada Lekhraj) experienced visions of destruction and establishment. He experienced the accurate visions of the future, but at first he did not understand that he would become this Vishnu.” [Mu 03.07.99]

It is possible that there was some embellishment of Dada Lekhraj's visions by Jagdishi Bhai... we now know a lot of what is said in Adi Dev about the early days is not true. It would seem logical that if these points of light appeared in DL's visions, their meaning would have been clarified as per the teachings of the AIVV. But this would seem to go against the history of how the concept of the point of light soul came into being... I would have thought the teaching that Father Shiv is a point of light would coincide with the teaching that we are also points of light.
fluffy bunny wrote:Why? There's no evidence of the story, nor concept, in the early documents, which begs another question ... if they did not know who and what the real self was, and they did not know who their god was, what his form and location were ... how were they able to have accurate Yoga?
Good point... they weren't able to have accurate Yoga until they understood that Father Shiv should be remembered through the body of Brahma... there are many points on this subject and here are a few...

"Remembering Brahma(Baba Krishna) will not help to incinerate vicious action... rather some or other type of sins will be committed. Hence don't even keep his photos." [Mu 17.05.71]

"Those who remember Father above (in the Soul World) follow the path of worship because they do not know the occupation. They do not know his name, form, country, and time." [Mu 14.10.68]

"OK. What is Supreme Soul, whom you remember? You say that he’s in the form of imperishable flame(incorporeal point). But it is not so. It’s wrong to remember an imperishable flame(point of light). The remembrance should be accurate isn’t it? Only gossips will not work. One should know accurately." [Mu 09.05.71]

"You know that ShivBaba(Father Shiv) is a point.... OK! If you feel that point is small then house(Chariot) is big, isn’t it? So remember the house (or Chariot). Baba also stays there." [Mu 04.09.76]

One must remember the body (of the Chariot) and then the soul (of incorporeal Father FShiv within him)... Whenever current (power) is to be given to others then one should be in remembrance (of God) in the night and in the mornings. Looking at the soul means giving searchlight. Those who remember (accurately) will receive (His) remembrance." [Mu 18.03.74]

“If you remember the picture(i.e. the corporeal Chariot) along with the One who has no picture(Incorporeal Father Shiv), you yourselves will become virtuous. If you remember only the picture(i.e. the Chariot) and the role, then you will remember only the role. That is why the picture and the role should be remembered, along with the one who has no picture(i.e. incorporeal Father Shiv).” [Mu 18.01.70]

fluffy bunny wrote:Most other people would have no problem in understanding. Indeed, as Robin point out, it even says similar in the Gita and other scripture, had Lekhraj Kirpalani any knowledge of them.
I must say it's easy in hindsight to see things more clearly... but these souls were experiencing visions and were enamoured with Brahma Baba... the path of Bhakti was being shot at this time, not the path of knowledge... That is why souls like Ram left after a few years... there wasn't enough knowledge to sustain them.

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Re: Point of light or star shaped form only arose in 1962

Post by sita » 19 Dec 2013

I think Brahma Baba had knowledge of the Gita of the path of Bhakti. I don't know well how and why was the practce of reading the Gita introduced n the begnnng, but the choice of this particular scripture must not be random.

I also don't know where from does it come the story about the stars becoming princes and princesses. Anyway what is there included of the visions of extablishment? I think we have no reason to disbeleve any statement untill some argument against that comes out. This is the common way accepted, i think we have no reason to change this establshed code of conduct. Anything apart from this would be useless spreading of mistrust that nothing good will come out of it. If Brahma Baba have had visions of stars becoming princes and princesses and we don't have it recorded in some Murli, this may very well still have been narrated by Brahma Baba in some unrecorded Murli and through others it may come to us.

With respect to accurate Yoga, it would be speculative to now state that at that time there was no accurate Yoga, since the form that comes later could not have possibly been there earler. But there have certainly been natural remembrance that is described as the essence of effort. Apart from this getting up early, attendng class, livng wth the conviction you are in the company of the Supreme Soul, you are part of a process of establshment of a new world, followng purty etc. can all be termed as various relgious practices.

As far as I understand the logic is that the effort goes still from the beginning of Copper Age, maybe not in golden and silver ages since there is no accounts of karma or effort there. It is said that knowledge is reward for the Bhakti we have done, the more Bhakti one has done, the more knowledge he gets. The status of Mama is not result only of few years of effort, but of many births, but also since she came in the Yagya her effort has been supportive to Brahma Baba and this is explained with matching of sankars due to many births being together.

Similarly even every soul who has been in contact with the soul of Brahma Baba in past lives would be likely that he comes in contact with him in the Confluence Age and so obtain knowledge. In some way the effort and result are already fixed, already done, nothing new is to be done, because whatever happens at the Confluence Age is result of 63 births and whatever happens in 63 births is result of the Confluence Age, because it is a cylce. Before having the Gyan of the point still Mama has been showing certain qualities with respect to Brahma Baba and the rest of the Brahmins. She has taken responsibility for the Yagya, so these actions also bring result and takng responsblty means claiming a crown.

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Re: Point of light or star shaped form only arose in 1962

Post by fluffy bunny » 19 Dec 2013

sita wrote:I think ... I don't know well how ... I also don't know where ...
Rather than "having no reason to disbelieve any statement until some argument against that comes out", you are safer not believe any statement until some evidence comes out to support it ... and that is the most commonly accepted way. No evidence, no faith.

We know Lekhraj Kirpalani was uneducated and his understanding of the Gita was criticised at the time, that he even used to let it drop out of his hand at the early meetings.

Personally, I am think many of the stories of his alleged religiousness come not from him but from this other older man and partner the PBKs talk of, and the image the BKs present is a composite of the two men. That they are taking qualities of one and applying it to the other. Remember, we have documents from the 30s and 40s now and the facts and impression they give are 100% different from what the BKs claims. All we can say with any safety is that whatever the BKs say is false ... and then build up a picture of the truth based on evidence. We cannot assume anything they say is true.

Lawrence Babb, who studied the Brahma Kumaris in India during 1978-1979, point out that many of the religious influences came from Lekhraj Kirpalani's wife's side and the Pushtimarg of Vallabha Acharya.

I don't know the specific concept of the self in Pushtimarg right now but I know is other Vaishnavite sects of the same age like that of Chaitanya Mahaprabhu, going back 100s of years, they visualised the self as a spark of light going from one body to the next ... only they put it in the heart not the head.

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Re: Point of light or star shaped form only arose in 1962

Post by fluffy bunny » 19 Dec 2013

Roy wrote:"OK. What is Supreme Soul, whom you remember? You say that he’s in the form of imperishable flame(incorporeal point). But it is not so. It’s wrong to remember an imperishable flame(point of light). The remembrance should be accurate isn’t it? Only gossips will not work. One should know accurately." [Mu 09.05.71]
It sounds like there may have been an intermediate phase where they visualised their god and the self as a flame. That's understandable.

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Re: Point of light or star shaped form only arose in 1962

Post by sita » 19 Dec 2013

Personally, I am think many of the stories of his alleged religiousness come not from him but from this other older man and partner the PBKs talk of, and the image the BKs present is a composite of the two men. That they are taking qualities of one and applying it to the other. Remember, we have documents from the 30s and 40s now and the facts and impression they give are 100% different from what the BKs claims. All we can say with any safety is that whatever the BKs say is false ... and then build up a picture of the truth based on evidence. We cannot assume anything they say is true.
If I had to accept your suggeston to not accept without evdence i would have to suppose speculations here, but there is nothing wrong in people stating their opinion. Some basic trust has to be understood as communcaton cannot otherwse even happen.

About the stars becomng princes, we have the story, but whose vison was this? But we anyway don't accept a vison as evidence. The concepton about the soul in the heart is there in the Gita, but there could be speculaton what the heart means, because we say the hearth of something meaning the essence. The comparson of the soul with the atom is also there in the scrptures, but I am not sure which one.

I assume by educaton you understand what we understand today as the regular school educaton, but the educational system in India, tradtonally has been assocated with the religous instituton. Even today art teachers, for example, are respected as gurus, and you are expected to behave like in a relgious institution if you would like to learn that. I have heard references in the audio Murlis of Brahma Baba reciting verses and also speaking about his worship of Narayan (if I am not fooling myself) in the sense that there is no meaning and no gain from that.
We know Lekhraj Kirpalani was uneducated and his understanding of the Gita was criticised at the time, that he even used to let it drop out of his hand at the early meetings.
You must have a good reason to say this, maybe you would like to elaborate on that.
Lawrence Babb, who studied the Brahma Kumaris in India during 1978-1979, point out that many of the religious influences came from Lekhraj Kirpalani's wife's side and the Pushtimarg of Vallabha Acharya.
This is also interestng observaton where we see the usual trend also in the BK today, as maybe it has always been, that the more relgous wife makes the man move in the path of religion.

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fluffy bunny
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Re: Point of light or star shaped form only arose in 1962

Post by fluffy bunny » 19 Dec 2013

sita wrote:If I had to accept your suggeston to not accept without evdence i would have to suppose speculations here
Yes, it's a working theory based a) on Lekhraj Kirpalani's irreligious behaviour once becoming the leader of the Om Mandli, and b) what PBK/Advance Knowledge says about this other character. I think you call him Ram or "the partner".

Having said that, Pushtimarg had a reputation for licentiousness or more sensual/erotic tendencies - even amongst their priesthood. The cult of Krishna is India has long had a sensual, erotic element.
About the stars becomng princes, we have the story, but whose vison was this?
I don't know, does it even make sense according to the Knowledge? Does the Knowledge state that the first souls "drop" down on earth as star and then spring up as princes and princesses? Do BKs really think it is physically possible? I thought the soul was invisible ...

It could have just been like a dream, one of many, which was only given significance later. Lekhraj Kirpalani had many visions which did not happen, or he misunderstood, and many which have been forgotten and are not spoken about.
I assume by educaton you understand what we understand today as the regular school educaton, but the educational system in India, tradtonally has been assocated with the religous instituton.
Lekhraj Kirpalani was a bhaibund Sindhi. Their traditions were different and interests in business.
You must have a good reason to say this, maybe you would like to elaborate on that.We know Lekhraj Kirpalani was uneducated and his understanding of the Gita was criticised at the time, that he even used to let it drop out of his hand at the early meetings.
I don't think he had much interest/appreciation of the Gita. To let the Gita drop out of his hand is to show disrespect and would upset sincere Hindus.

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