Baba entered Brahma in Bengal

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Baba entered Brahma in Bengal

Post by sita » 25 Dec 2013

You can find this quote on the 3rd line of the forth page:

"Baba first came in Bengal; it was here that Baba entered Brahma"

http://www.bkdrluhar.com/00-Avyakt%20Mu ... 2-2008.pdf

in Hindi

http://www.bkdrluhar.com/00-Avyakt%20Mu ... 2.2008.pdf

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Re: Baba entered Brahma in Bengal

Post by fluffy bunny » 25 Dec 2013

sita wrote:"Baba first came in Bengal; it was here that Baba entered Brahma"
In this case, do PBKs understand Bengal as a place, or a person, or both?

If it is Lekhraj Kirpalani, when do you think he finally realised this had happened?

Just out of interest, Islam established itself in Bengal in the 1200s and, along with the Turkic cavalrymen, came the mystic Sufi seers or sheikhs who had much interest in the local, traditional yogis and their practises. In particular, were the Chishti Order who were notable for "sama", or evoking divine presences through song or listening to music.

Are we anywhere closer to know who the Bengal saddhu who Lekhraj Kirpalani paid a handsome sum of money to was?

Historically, it is said the cult of Krishna, arose in Bengal - partly due to the patronage of the Muslim court at Gaur around 1470 to 1480 - and it was here that Chaitanya later established his religion of devotion to Krishna and Radhe. He also was worshipped as a God (prior there had been various goddess cults such as those to Manasa and Chandi). Chaitanya's Krishna worship was opposed by the Sakta Brahmins (Shaktism, the worship of Shakti or Devi – the Hindu Divine Mother as the absolute, ultimate Godhead).
Map_of_Bengal_1932.jpg
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Re: Baba entered Brahma in Bengal

Post by Roy » 26 Dec 2013

Nice spot Sita Bhai!

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Re: Baba entered Brahma in Bengal

Post by sita » 26 Dec 2013

Dear fluffy bunny,

I think it is not about Brahma Baba. As you suggest, Bengal could refer to a person, a place or both. In the advanced knowledge, i think, Kalkutta is associated with the worship of Kali.

If we accept it is the soul of Brahma Baba narrating the Avyakt Vani, obviously he realizes the mentioned point. Some points where this could have happened is right with his leaving the body. Like, for example, now when Kumarka Dadi had left the body, it was said that everything became clear to her, in the same way, it is possible something have become clear to Brahma Baba as well, on leaving the body. Another point could be arround the year he did not come to Mount Abu...please, help me.....1988?...when it is said that he had attained a seed stage, because seed stage is also called Gyan svarup, that is the form of knowledge, so maybe something also become clear at that stage. Maybe there are also other possibilities.

Still, it is also said that he identifies himself with the God of the Gita. It has been recognized that the Supreme Soul has entered him. Brahma Baba is the moon of knowledge. The moon is child of the earth. When there is enclipse of the moon, the shadow of the earh is cast on the moon, that is to mean that the soul of Brahma Baba is influenced by the earth that is the sisters and mothers in the knowledge.

I think, you are making very good reference about the possible connection between the practices introduced by Chaitanya and some practice in Islam. I think that, anyway, the cult of Krishna had originated even earlier.

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Re: Baba entered Brahma in Bengal

Post by warrior » 26 Dec 2013

sita wrote:Another point could be arround the year he did not come to Mount Abu...please, help me.....1988?...when it is said that he had attained a seed stage ...
Yes i think it was indeed the year 1988. An interesting thing about it ...
A friend of mine told me that as he was preparing to go to Abu in 1988 for the first time to meet BapDada as a new BK, before leaving his town to travel to Abu a BK in-charge of organizing the trip said - You can go to Abu but BapDada will not come this time. So they knew about it before hand.

My friend went anyway to visit Abu and there were many BKs that came for the meeting, but instead was Kumarka's class and my friend was called on stage to relate his experience and recite a poem.

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Re: Baba entered Brahma in Bengal

Post by fluffy bunny » 27 Dec 2013

This comment contracts the ones the BKs tell of it happening at the meeting with the guru as his home in Hydrabad where his daughter was meant to have seen and heard, "Shivoham, Shivoham etc", doesn't it? What do we make of that?

Are there any more details about the event and how and when it happened?
sita wrote:I think, you are making very good reference about the possible connection between the practices introduced by Chaitanya and some practice in Islam. I think that, anyway, the cult of Krishna had originated even earlier.
Of course, yes, the legends of Krishna worship are older, those comments only relates to Bengal. However, at the time, Bengal was split between Shivites and Vishnavites.

Chaitanya was the leading proponent of Krishna worship, or the revival in it, and was then followed by Vallabha Acharya to whose Pusthi sect Lekhraj Kirpalani's wife and her family was attached. It's thought many influences came to Lekhraj Kirpalani from that. What's a little interesting about Pushti is how from its beginning it targeted wealthy bankers and merchants who saw pilgrimage as a holiday and an opportunity for trade. It was a religion of pleasure revolting against the idea that god could only be found through asceticism.

One of its most valued theological works was called Prem Sagar, or "Ocean of Love" (one of Krishna's titles). Sounds familiar? The sect also focused on the loves of Krishna and Radha that Lekhraj Kirpalani played with Om Radhe.

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Re: Baba entered Brahma in Bengal

Post by sita » 27 Dec 2013

This comment contracts the ones the BKs tell of it happening at the meeting with the guru as his home in Hydrabad where his daughter was meant to have seen and heard, "Shivoham, Shivoham etc", doesn't it? What do we make of that?
I think it is possible for such happening to have really occured, but red eyes and uttering of Shivoham is no ground for to suggest the Supreme Soul has entered at that time. To me it looks like some meditational practice, and the fact that his daughter has seenlight in the room refers to her exprience, like many people have had visions, still this is no proof of the Supreme Soul entering. The proof is narrating knowledge and there is no new and extraodrinary knowlede at that time, uttering of Shivoham is a common practice.
One of its most valued theological works was called Prem Sagar, or "Ocean of Love" (one of Krishna's titles). Sounds familiar? The sect also focused on the loves of Krishna and Radha that Lekhraj Kirpalani played with Om Radhe.
It has to be Prem Saagar. (there is automatic autocorrect on, it is not possible to write Sagar with a "g" it turns it into Sakar)

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Re: Baba entered Brahma in Bengal

Post by fluffy bunny » 27 Dec 2013

What years was Lekhraj Kirpalani in Bengal? Are we speaking of his time in Calcutta, or did he travel elsewhere?

Obviously, it took a number of years ... as many as 20 years ... before he *realised* the Shiva soul had entered him, so this must be a retrospective realisation on Lekhraj Kirpalani's behalf.

I, personally, don't agree with the common belief in the AIVV that the "Bengal saddhu" relates to the mysterious partner who then later went on to become Virendra Dev Dixit. My reading of the available history, and speaking to old Sindhis, is that the Bengal saddhu was some kind of mystic who taught or initiated Lekhraj Kirpalani into some kind of mystic art, siddhi, or relationship with this other "god" or spirit being.

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Re: Baba entered Brahma in Bengal

Post by sita » 29 Dec 2013

Obviously, it took a number of years ... as many as 20 years ... before he *realised* the Shiva soul had entered him, so this must be a retrospective realisation on Lekhraj Kirpalani's behalf.
I think we should study this matter in the context of entrance being something common. In Indian context some deity entering someone is not extraodinary event. There were refences that in the begining Brahma Baba was perceived as incarnation of Vishnu. Anyway i think we have ground to say something has happened in Bengal.

I, personally, don't agree with the common belief in the AIVV that the "Bengal saddhu" relates to the mysterious partner who then later went on to become Veerendra Dev Dixit. My reading of the available history, and speaking to old Sindhis, is that the Bengal saddhu was some kind of mystic who taught or initiated Lekhraj Kirpalani into some kind of mystic art, siddhi, or relationship with this other "god" or spirit being.
I don't think there is such belief.

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Re: Baba entered Brahma in Bengal

Post by fluffy bunny » 29 Dec 2013

sita wrote:I think we should study this matter in the context of entrance being something common. In Indian context some deity entering someone is not extraodinary event. There were refences that in the begining Brahma Baba was perceived as incarnation of Vishnu.
There is a difference between a medium being possessed by and channeling a deva/devi (allowing them to speak and act through them), and being the incarnation of Vishnu. In the beginning they clearly thought he was God, not channeling god or a god. Although I don't know how they managed to think he was *all* the different gods.

Whereas I could believe in India that all the mediums are channeling spirits, I could not believe they are channeling the gods they say they are ... nor BK like Little Mohini who puts on a performance of "channeling" Krishna on special occasions.
I don't think there is such belief.
All I can say is that I have heard it from a PBK, whether it was an official view, I don't know. Who was or what does the AIVV currently say about the "Bengal saddhu"?

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Re: Baba entered Brahma in Bengal

Post by arjun » 30 Dec 2013

fluffy-bunny wrote:All I can say is that I have heard it from a PBK, whether it was an official view, I don't know. Who was or what does the AIVV currently say about the "Bengal saddhu"?
I don't think there is any official discussion on any such Bengali sadhu in AIVV. This was mentioned only in a BK magazine by a BK brother.

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Re: Baba entered Brahma in Bengal

Post by fluffy bunny » 30 Dec 2013

I might be wrong in this case but I thought there was mention in a Murli too? If not, there certainly is the historical papers.

But Shiva's first entrance into the partner happened in Calcutta (Bengal), is that correct?

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Re: Baba entered Brahma in Bengal

Post by warrior » 30 Dec 2013

So far, The Bengali Guru mentioned by a BK is different to the Sadhu whom Dada Lekhraj given a large sum of money.
In Calcutta and also in Sind Dada Lekhraj used to invite Sadhus to conduct spiritual gatherings in his lokik home. To those gatherings friends, family and locals used to come.
The tradition seems to continue even today, I recently experienced this India. A Hindu family invited a Sadhu to their home and all the locals came for the sangathan. Money and different things were offered to the Guru.

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Re: Baba entered Brahma in Bengal

Post by sita » 30 Dec 2013

I remember a reference from a book by a senior BK that there has been a drastic change in Brahma Baba after his coming back from Calcutta.

It seems Brahma Baba has been a Vishnu devotee. Although i think it is not something uncommon devotion to both Vishnu and Shiva at the same time, it is as if still there is some shift in him to Shivaism. I wonder what could have possibly caused that. It could have been due to the influence of someone.

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Re: Baba entered Brahma in Bengal

Post by fluffy bunny » 30 Dec 2013

But we are talking about the early 1930s here, and there was no mention of Shiva until about 1956. Indeed, it's remarkable enough that he chose to be called Prajapati God Brahma given how relatively unimportant and un-worshipped Brahma is in India.


Thanks for the detail, warrior. It's the same then as the 'more than one partner' confusion the BKs have made too. It's so irritating how little the BKs know about their own religion and how confused they have made things. It's almost as if their nature is to confuse things. And, no, I don't think it is a test. I just think their minds are a mess - and still stuck in business and Bhakti - and so they produce a mess and more business and Bhakti.


There is, however, a difference between 'inviting a saddhu to one's home for a blessing, satsang etc'', and 'going to a saddhu for initiation or to gain some siddhi or another'. Lekhraj Kirpalani did both. What's clearly stated is that he went to a saddhu and paid a sum of money to learn some art. Or what I would say was be initiated.

My understanding of the facts remains rationalistic. I don't "believe" in siddhis or power, I've actually seen and met people with them and so I don't doubt their existence. I reject the skeptical view that there are no such things and they are *all* frauds ... although many are ... and I accept the view shared by the BKs, Buddhists, Islam etc that such powers do exist ... but are of little ultimate value.

Until I find evidence to the contrary, my interpretation of the events is that Lekhraj Kirpalani became interested in spiritualistic things and went to a certain saddhu in Bengal. He paid a huge sum to be initiated into some power, relationship with some spirit, or have some chakra opened. Then the effect of that ... combined with his unprepared state, ego, delusion etc ... led to all the phenomena surrounding Om Mandli, the rise of the philosophy and what happened next. Then he and the BKs slowly transformed it into a religion (mostly to live off), adding stories and changing them as they went along.

The bare bones of this interpretation are based on recorded facts. The only real difference is whether one accepts the power or spirit is the god of all, or not.

Personally, I think that's yet to be proven and we are dealing with what would be called 'a god' rather than 'the god'. Given the BKs tendency to self-importance and vast exaggeration, it is really too much to suggest that they are exaggerating about the spiritual level of Lekhraj Kirpalani and whatever power or spirit he had with him?

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