The Founding of the World Renewal Trust

To discuss the BK and PBK versions of the factual Yagya history from the beginning.
T.K
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Re: The Founding of the World Renewal Trust

Post by T.K » 18 May 2012

fluffy bunny wrote: No, from my point of view, you are making assumptions (... although, to be fair, I tend to an archaic use of English so you might say "presumption". Presumptions and presumptive).
I beg to differ. The canonical definition I have seen used for assumption is "the act of taking something for granted" while that of conjecture is "the formation of theory without sufficient proof". IMO the first gives a sense that there is not room for doubt which the second conveys.
In any case, the context of my posts is probably now clearer.
fluffy bunny wrote: Why don't you tell us who you are and what you are really doing for whom?
I tend to think a real historian would come across in a more neutral fashion and be far more cautious given the lack of material you have looked at.
But please report back to us once you have spoken to the BKWSU and got their version of events.
Thank you
I am interested in the early BK history because I am fascinated by what makes a person commit his entire wealth and family to a cause and what makes others join him. And of course, BK story has the added intrigue of paranormal events, trials and travails, failed predictions, decline, resurgence, etc.

As for neutrality, I don't have a dog in this "tussle" between BKs, PBKs, ex-BKs, ex-PBKs, but I do call it as I see it. Much of my writing is plain sharing of my thoughts, I am not and don't pretend to be writing stuff that is ready for peer-reviewed journals. And I do get intrigued by other stuff around here. So IMO it is a bit unfair if people jump all over my posts for lack of utmost scientific rigor. But of course you are still welcome to do so.

And yes, I will add material to the cite if and when I encounter substantive data that is not already here, of which there is already plenty.

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fluffy bunny
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Re: The Founding of the World Renewal Trust

Post by fluffy bunny » 19 May 2012

T.K wrote:In any case, the context of my posts is probably now clearer.
Not really. In fact, not at all really ( ... canonical? It's the English language.)

Why the BKWSU? How did you come across them? They're a pretty obscure choice if you are not at all involved and you seem to much up to speed to be a complete outside.
And yes, I will add material to the cite if and when I encounter substantive data that is not already here, of which there is already plenty.
Great ... get to work. The only place left is knocking on the BKWSU doors.

T.K
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Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: Understand the historical facts of the organization.

Re: The Founding of the World Renewal Trust

Post by T.K » 19 May 2012

fluffy bunny wrote: Why the BKWSU? How did you come across them? They're a pretty obscure choice if you are not at all involved and you seem to much up to speed to be a complete outside.
Pretty obscure? Really? When was the last time you visited India?

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fluffy bunny
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Re: The Founding of the World Renewal Trust

Post by fluffy bunny » 19 May 2012

Are they really making that much of an impact in India? Do people really pay them much attention? What is the general opinion of them?

I don't know, I am not Indian but, say, 900,000 adherents out of 1,000,000,000 + equals less than 0.09%. The only thing I have heard from Indians is that they think the BKs are stinking rich, spend all their time chasing VIPs, break up families and are upsetting the local priest by taking over their roles. I share the first three opinions with them, but I have no strong feelings about the fourth ... except that we have to defend society from the Brahma Kumaris deception.

T.K
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Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: Understand the historical facts of the organization.

Re: The Founding of the World Renewal Trust

Post by T.K » 19 May 2012

One can write an entire thesis on the topics you have touched.

BKs are no longer the fringe group of chaste women, clad in white, avoided by people from the fear of getting hypnotized, seeking 900,000 purified souls who will serve them in paradise. Today they have their own TV channel, which also streams on the internet, and their shows are hosted by other channels. Corporations invite them to teach their employees the art of living. They participate in scientific studies in collaboration with other agencies, findings of which are published. Multiple Indian Presidents have visited them and fondly speak of them, leave aside other prominent members of the society. I am not aware of any other NRM, religious establishment or organization that is patronized as much by "VIPs". I think they may have surpassed even Sai Baba. Erudite professionals advocate them. Thanks to their distinctive clothing and lapel-pins they can be spotted in groups almost every where, streets, railway stations, airports, etc. You may agree with them or you may disagree, or you may not know much about them, but you have heard of them. And most of those who know something about them, admit some of what they say makes sense, either willingly or grudgingly.

But there is another side to the coin, as you have pointed out. Those who are in closer contact with them, who visit the centers and see the sausage being made, so to speak, are more aware of it. The perception of ill-treatment of the common folks, VIP chasing, demand for money, their "encouragement" to "ignore" the family, the strict disciplines and restrictions, etc., etc., all of this dampens the growth in the number of their adherents. But what I notice is that in India, those who end up following BKs find a way to tolerate the unpleasant in the hopes of getting the final prize. At least that is the way I feel.

I could go on and on. Two or even twenty paragraphs are not going to do justice to this discussion.

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fluffy bunny
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Re: The Founding of the World Renewal Trust

Post by fluffy bunny » 19 May 2012

The PBKs might welcome such opinion, as they predict the two side of the family BK and PBK will unite as one.

For me, it disgusts me that the Westerner BKs put a professional, commercial polish on the BK turd without seeking the greater truth of it all first. You cannot build an Age of Truth out of lies and deception.

You can have all the power and wealth you want ... and the BKs are still beginners in that department ... but it still won't be truth.

I am not so gullible to think the politicians coming to have their photo taken means much. It is just politics for them at the end of the day. Do they know what the BKs really believe?

It strikes me that India is getting now is the Western New Age passed through a slightly Hindu filter ... not even their "Gyan" any more. The BKs are not the first cult to turn to corporate coaching and so on to make a living and promote their beliefs within society.

T.K
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Please give a short description of your interest in joining this forum.: Understand the historical facts of the organization.

Re: The Founding of the World Renewal Trust

Post by T.K » 20 May 2012

BTW, I must also add about the positive impact BKs have had. Adult Indians, in general, are not very adept at managing conflicts within close relationships, due to a variety of reasons that we can go into at another time. This results in a lot of frustration, resentment, anger, depressive moods, stress, and related physical and mental ailments. Surprisingly, an open discussion to understand each other's viewpoint and work out an amiable solution, as simple as it may sound, is often hard for them to do. One of the things that BKs have managed to do is help people deal with their own emotions, work with those of that others, manage that which they can control and ignore that which they cannot. I commonly hear people say that, on a day-today basis they are less angry, less stressed and understand the world around them a little better.

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fluffy bunny
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Re: The Founding of the World Renewal Trust

Post by fluffy bunny » 20 May 2012

Sorry ... I have strayed off the topic of the founding of the World Spiritual Renewal Trust and will start another topic for my questions.

When you have more information about the founding, please post it.

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fluffy bunny
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Re: The Founding of the World Renewal Trust

Post by fluffy bunny » 23 May 2012

arjun wrote:But somewhere in his mind [Lekhraj Kirpalani} developed expectation and attachment for his alokik children which led to heart attack within a couple of days of registration of BK family as an institution in January, 1969 (when the very alokik children, whom he pampered, did not follow ShivBaba's Shrimat).
I understand there are a few inferences here; one being that according to the Murlis no organization can be registered, no property should be bought and if Destruction did not happen by 1976, all assets and wealthy ought to have been given to the Indian government.

Again, there is that strange disconnect between the BKs hearing and believing or following which seems to happen a lot in the organization. Their Baba says one thing, they say "follow the Father" ... then the leadership goes and does the opposite.

I cannot say that I know this "cause of the heart attack" story to be true but I do remember stories of his heart condition and some issue about medication/injections. Perhaps someone else can fill in the details. I don't expect the BKs to ever come out with the truth.

One might argue that the registration and keeping of the wealth and assets was "purely practical". On the other hand one could suggest it proved their primary intentions to turn the religion into a money reaping machine in order to sustain them in food, clothing and shelter ... for what else were the women to do at the points where, a) Lekhraj Kirpalani's money ran out, and b) he died. Hindus are pretty well programmed to give money to holy people, it does not take much to set oneself up in the business.

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arjun
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Re: The Founding of the World Renewal Trust

Post by arjun » 26 May 2012

fluffybunny wrote:I cannot say that I know this "cause of the heart attack" story to be true but I do remember stories of his heart condition and some issue about medication/injections. Perhaps someone else can fill in the details. I don't expect the BKs to ever come out with the truth.
Long ago (probably a few years ago), I had posted scanned copies of articles written by a senior BK regarding the last days of Brahma Baba and the formation of the trust. I had probably posted it on www.brahmakumaris.info forum. But now it is difficult to trace the same. I checked my computer records, but could not find the scanned copies of that article.

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