Yagya history

To discuss the BK and PBK versions of the factual Yagya history from the beginning.
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bansy
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Yagya history

Post by bansy » 25 Sep 2006

All,

Although the entire CoA is not without drama itself, this period 1969-76 must be one of the most dramatic for both BKs and PBKs. Also a few years prior 1969 I suppose. Several Questions;

1) Have the Murlis within this period 1969-76 been translated ? They would be the most revealing ones to start with surely.

2) When did Virendra Dev Dixit realise himself that he was the Chariot of Shiva ? During this period 1969-1976, whilst meeting Dadi Kumarka in Madhuban and being reprimanded, was he aware of his role as Ram at that particular time, and of the souls Shiva-Ram-Krishna through his body ? Or did this full realisation come after he left Kampil to begin travelling around India starting out in Delhi.

3) Thereafter, when was Virendra Dev Dixit finally declared the Chariot of the souls of Shiva-Ram-Krishna to the outside world ?

Regards
Bansy

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Post by arjun » 26 Sep 2006

Sister Bansy wrote:1) Have the Murlis within this period 1969-76 been translated ? They would be the most revealing ones to start with surely.
Which Murlis are you referring to? Is it the revised BK Murlis/Avyakt Vanis of that period? Or do you mean to say 'PBK Murlis'? If it is PBK Murlis, then I suppose there were none at that time because the current Chariot (Baba Virendra Dev Dixit) got revealed only in 1976.
2) When did Veerendra Dev Dixit realise himself that he was the Chariot of Shiva ? During this period 1969-1976, whilst meeting Dadi Kumarka in Madhuban and being reprimanded, was he aware of his role as Ram at that particular time, and of the souls Shiva-Ram-Krishna through his body ? Or did this full realisation come after he left Kampil to begin travelling around India starting out in Delhi.
3) Thereafter, when was Veerendra Dev Dixit finally declared the Chariot of the souls of Shiva-Ram-Krishna to the outside world ?
I don't think you would get any direct reply to this question because Baba Virendra Dev Dixit has never or nowhere claimed that Shiv enters into him. The only thing that can be said that a group of BKs, especially mothers recognized in 1976 that it was Father Shiv who was speaking through Baba Virendra Dev Dixit and not the soul of Baba Virendra Dev Dixit. They then started giving the message to others.

With regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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Post by bansy » 26 Sep 2006

Arjunbhai
Thanks for the reply.
Arjun wrote:Which Murlis are you referring to? Is it the revised BK Murlis/Avyakt Vanis of that period?
Yes, I mean from the BKs, since I also assume there were none via Virendra Dev Dixit during this period. I would feel Virendra Dev Dixit was studying during this time since he become a BK in 1969, so the Murlis during the period 1969-1976 were the most convincing.
mothers recognized in 1976 that it was Father Shiv who was speaking through Baba Veerendra Dev Dixit and not the soul of Baba Veerendra Dev Dixit.
This is interesting. I am not sure how it can be easily put on paper but "how" did the matas recognise Father Shiv ? I've heard/read that in the case of the chariots Brahma Baba (Lekhraj Kirpalani) it was somehow a "glow or aura", in the case of Dadi Gulzar it is the "flush of the cheeks", albeit these are physical appearances. But I am sure there's more to the "recognising" the divine.

Regards,
Bansy

(* just to reminder to others, the mention of Virendra Dev Dixit above means "the soul of Virendra Dev Dixit" who also had to go through the study and understanding).

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Accurate History of the terms Shiva called himself

Post by fluffy bunny » 13 Nov 2006

Hi
  • • What is the accurate history of the terms "Shiva" has called himself?

    • Was it the Shiva soul that called himself these things or was it Brahma and the BK followers?
OK. We are told that in the beginning the soul said after it possessed Lekhraj Kirpalani, "Shivoham, Shivoham ... etc.". The BKs translate that as "I am Shiva", I am not entirely sure that is the accurate translation.

Then we get the "Bhagwanovatche" [spell?] or "God speaks" at the start of the Murlis. But did the so called Shiva souls actually say, "I am God" or did Lekhraj Kirpalani say, "He is God, He is the Supreme Soul". Or did Sevak Ram say, "It is God". The PBKs might be able to comment on this.

I think that as BKs we have not heard the whole truth from the BKWSU. We know that much. I used to wonder who this "Ram's Soul" was that Baba always used to mention and the BKs used to say it was Silver Aged Ram. The real story has been whitewashed out, Sevak Ram written out and shown in a romantic soft focus. The real story must have been much more fascinating.

We take it to be "God" because "God" is the best word we have but perhaps He/She/It/They are something else still God-like over we humans. I am not denying its superiorness, more just trying to drink the milk from out amongst the dirty water. It could have been a level of consciousness rather than an entity, perhaps.

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Post by arjun » 15 Nov 2006

OK. We are told that in the beginning the soul said after it possessed Lekhraj Kirpalani, "Shivoham, Shivoham ... etc.". The BKs translate that as "I am Shiva", I am not entirely sure that is the accurate translation.
Om Shanti. There is no proof for this in the Murlis or Avyakt Vanis. This story seems to have been introduced in the BK history after 1969 to serve vested interests. I would provide Murli proof to support my viewpoint.
With regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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Post by fluffy bunny » 15 Nov 2006

arjun wrote: There is no proof for this in the Murlis or Avyakt Vanis. This story seems to have been introduced in the BK history after 1969 to serve vested interests. I would provide Murli proof to support my viewpoint.
I, and I am sure others, would be very grateful for this. It is an utterly earth shattering revelation ... but I had my suspicions.

As I said, I am not doubting the superiorness of this soul over humanity. What I always wondered was, "why did an incorporeal soul have something as corporeal ... and dare I say child-like ... as a personal name?".

I can imagine a superior incorporeal soul or consciousness announcing himself by description, e.g. Shiva = benefactor ... "Shivoham" could mean, "I am a benefactor ..." or "I come to bring you benefit ..." etc. Or else that the spiritual vibrations resonated within Lekhraj Kirpalani body/mind to make Lekhraj Kirpalani's mind think, "... this is a supremely beneficial being/experience" as best as he could understand within his cultural and spiritual limits. In essence, what I hope that we can do here is remove the "Krishna soul's" misinterpretations or his lack of ability to comprehend the experience it was having and, without any offence intended to the BKs, his "childlikeness".

Now, if on top of that certain elements within the BKWSU have fabricated or romanticised a mythical story to impress people ... then that is a very great crime.

But, sadly, it would not surprise me. Jagdish Chander may have been the best they had by way of a publicist, but he was off the planet as far as reality is concerned and a total romantic. I guessed they thought that all of the original spiritual family would die off, the truth be forgotten about, buried and unknown.

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Post by arjun » 15 Nov 2006

Dear ex-l,
Om Shanti. What I have written above is about the story put forward by the BKs that Shiva entered into the body of Dada Lekhraj on the day he had divine visions and uttered 'Shivoham, Shivoham....' to be imaginary because I have read in one of the Murlis Baba saying that it is cannot be possible that if someone has a divine vision of some deity, it means that that deity has also entered into him/her.
A couple of days back while I was reading the Sakar Murli dated 13.06.06 published by the BKs in Hindi, I found the following points on the page 3, which may support my above view:

"Toh Baap samjhaatey hain ki inka toh apnaa naam hai, mera sharir ka koi naam nahee hai, na mai punarjanm may aata hoon. Mai inmay pravesh kartaa hoon, inko bhi maaloom nahee padta hai. Koi tithi taareekh nahee.....Mai aata hoon paavan duniya arthaat din banaaney. Yah bhi nahee jaantey ki Baba nay kab pravesh kiya. Haan, vinaash saakshaatkaar kiya. Bahut dhyaan may jaatey thay, vah koi tithi taareekh vela nahee nikaal saktey. Krishna ko bhi poojtey hain, unka raatri ko janma dikhaatey hain. Kis samay, kitney minute aadi saara nikaaltey hain. Baap kahtey hain - mai toh hoon hee niraakaar. Jaisey aur manushya janma letey hain, vaisey mera janma thodey hee hota hai. Mera toh divya aloukik janma hai. Mai inmay pravesh karta hoon fir chalaa jaata hoon. Bail par saara din savaari thodey hee kartey hain. Mujhey jis samay bachhey Yaad kartey hain, mai haazir hoon." (Shiv pita dwara Brahma Baba ke maadhyam say sunaaya gaya)

"So the Father explains that he (i.e. Brahma) has his own name, I do not have a name based on the body, neither do I take rebirth. I enter into him; even he does not come to know of it. There is no date (of entry of Shiv into Brahma)....I come to create a pure world, i.e. day. Even he does not know when Baba entered (into him). Yes, he had visions of destruction. He used to go into trance a lot, for that no date or time can be deduced. Krishna is also worshipped; he is shown to have taken birth at night. At what time, at which minute, etc. everthing is calculated. Father says - I am incorporeal. Just as other human beings take birth, I do not take birth. My birth is divine, alokik. I enter into him and then depart. Does anyone ride on the bull throughout the day? Whenever children remember me, I am present." (narrated by Father Shiv through Brahma Baba)

When Baba Himself is telling that nobody knows when Baba entered into his corporeal medium, then how can the BKs pinpoint the time and day saying that Shiv entered into Dada Lekhraj when he suddenly got up from one of the spiritual gatherings of his lokik guru and had divine visions of Vishnu in his room.

Baba is telling that we cannot calculate the date or time of his entry into the corporeal medium. Date or time can be calculated only for human beings like the soul of Krishna (Dada Lekhraj). But in case of Gulzar Dadi, the date and time of entry of BapDada (Shiv+Brahma according to BKs) are calculated many months in advance. So, one can guess who is entering into her and whose entry are they plan many months in advance - is it the Supreme Soul Shiv or the soul of Krishna?

With regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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Post by fluffy bunny » 16 Nov 2006

arjun wrote:"So the Father explains that he (i.e. Brahma) has his own name, I do not have a name based on the body, neither do I take rebirth. I enter into him; even he does not come to know of it. There is no date (of entry of Shiv into Brahma)....I come to create a pure world, i.e. day. Even he does not know when Baba entered (into him). Yes, he had visions of destruction. He used to go into trance a lot, for that no date or time can be deduced.
This is a miracle. How can the followers of the BKWSU sit there day in/day out and not ask what is going on?

In the Sakar Murli of 11/02/2003, he says, "If you are sometimes confused reading the Murli, ShivBaba will come and speak the Murli. Then the children don't even realise that Shiv Baba came and helped ... No. You should realise that Shiv Baba came and spoke the Murli." Which states that Shiva enters or overshadows BK followers in some manner that is not made clear but suggests it is very subtle but allows him to influence their speach. So subtle that the BKs do not notice it when it happens.

Why then could he not enter Virendra Dev Dixit from time to time? Or why could he not enter any human? A separate topic may be. I always remember the senior BKs saying that they did not know when Shiva was in Lekhraj Kirpalani or not but it did not matter for them Lekhraj Kirpalani was their Baba and that was that.
  • • Back to the name though. If we accept that some elements of the BKWSU are not entire aware nor entirely trustworthy, if they are making things up ... what about the name. Is this soul saying that his "name is Shiva" or that his "nature is Shiva", e.g. a 'description' along the lines, to spell it out, "I am a beneficial Father-type soul" rather then "Shivoham ... I am Shiva".
I am still rocked by the thought that the BKWSU might have made the whole thing up and are making it so concrete by making Hollywood style movies to encourage followers to believe it.

If the daughter is still alive, can someone ask her? Or is she controlled by the BKWSU too?

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Post by arjun » 26 Nov 2006

ex-l wrote:If the daughter is still alive, can someone ask her? Or is she controlled by the BKWSU too?
She lives in Calcutta situated in Eastern India. If anyone wishes they can go and interview her, but I don't think the BK Administration would allow anyone to do that. There is even lesser chance of anyone recording it in a cd/cassette.

If the BKs really believe that truth is only on their side, then they should allow the interested persons to meet and interview Dadis/senior BKs (if not Avyakt BapDada) regarding the BK history/other questions raised by the PBKs.

If the PBKs can have nearly 180 vcds on questions and answers alone, then cannot the BKs have at least one VCD containing questions and answers session. If they are not ready to answer the questions in an open gathering like the PBKs, they can have someone asking questions on behalf of the PBKs/Ex-BKs.

But all this seems to be an imaginary proposition. When they are not ready to answer questions on a safe medium like internet, how can we expect them to answer questions on camera?
Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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Re: Accurate History of the terms Shiva called himself

Post by freefall » 26 Nov 2006

ex-l wrote: We are told that in the beginning the soul said after it possessed Lekhraj Kirpalani, "Shivoham, Shivoham ... etc.". The BKs translate that as "I am Shiva", I am not entirely sure that is the accurate translation.
Yes. It is an accurate translation.

As per the advaita doctrine of Hinduism there is only one consciousness that shines in different bodies, just as one sun shining in different ponds. By implication every individual is "Shiva" but does not realize it because of ignorance.

Advaita is the oldest thought stream in Hinduism. BK is diametrically opposite to advaita.

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Post by john » 27 Nov 2006

If the daughter is still alive, can someone ask her? Or is she controlled by the BKWSU too?
Was she the one that witnessed the event?

Maybe it was just her having a divine vision, if she was the only person there that could be the case?

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Post by fluffy bunny » 09 Dec 2006

freefall wrote:BK is diametrically opposite to advaita.
Thank you. I strong agree and the fact support this.
arjun wrote:There is no proof for this in the Murlis or Avyakt Vanis. This story seems to have been introduced in the BK history after 1969 to serve vested interests.
I was re-reading some of the classic scripture relating to the MahaBharata War looking for proofs that would relate to who we are and what we are doing here, and came over this quote;
The five Pandavs were said to have melted in the snowy mountains.

What this means is that the Pandavs had reached such a high and elevated stage of God or soul-consciousness that their main vice of ‘body consciousness’ had melted away. They could not have physically melted away as related by the epic. There were the only five people remaining and for continuation of humanity they had to be alive.

It is also believed that when Arjuna screamed out in fear exclaiming that he was being blinded by a light of immense brightness, people interpreted it to mean that this was the light of the Supreme Soul, whose radiance was equivalent to the brightness of 40,000 suns bursting forth all at once.

This is but Arjuna’s visions of the catastrophic and cataclysmic upheaval of the element causing natural calamities of unimagined proportions, visions of a nuclear holocaust, visions of massacre where rivers of blood flowed without cause.

After his exclamation to stop this blinding brightness, Arjuna then received visions of the palaces of gold studded with diamonds as well as a constellation of starlike images descending on earth and turning into beautiful angelic deities in regal wear.
I am sorry but I cannot remember the actual source.

What I remark upon is the utter similarity to the story the BKWSU put out about Lekhraj Kirpalani's vision and the moment of Shiva's descent.

If what Arjun writes is true;
  • given that there is no proof to support the BKs exaggerated story of Shiva's descent,
    given that the Murlis says no one can tell the moment of Shiva's incarnation,
    given that Sevak Ram's and other mediums have been written out of BK history,
is it possible to suggest that this part of Lekhraj Kirpalani's visions has also been falsified to recreate Lekhraj Kirpalani as the unquestionable guru in the mould of the classic Arjuna within the minds of impressionable BK, bhagats and foreigners who may be unaware of these scriptures by taking the classic texts and saying, "look, our guru had those visions too!" or is this the other way around, a BK follower re-interpretating scripture.

Elsewhere, there is documented to some degree the long period of Lekhraj Kirpalani breakdown/Shiva's breakthrough where his family sent him away and he was drawing on the walls of his house obsessed with swastikas etc. I would love to know more about the truth of that period.

I must find the original quotation because it reads like a BK version.

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Awesome Video

Post by celtiggyan » 15 Dec 2006

Awesome BKWSU video; Supreme Soul Coming back

Who is that? Brahma Baba's son?

C.

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Post by bansy » 15 Dec 2006

This is the same video clip, plus others, that were removed from the google video website (see thread "BKWSU video clips" in All or Everything subforum), but has now been reposted into the YouTube website.

Let's see when it will be removed from this website too, embarassing for the BKWSU it seems.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 15 Dec 2006

bansy wrote:This is the same video clip, plus others, that were removed from the google video website (see thread "BKWSU video clips" in All or Everything subforum), but has now been reposted into the YouTube website.
No, it is not his son but some other BK ... and they have not posted the Destruction / Birth of Deities-fully-dressed / Heaven one I like ... probably because I like it.

Was that actually Kirpalani's original house where it allegedly happened?

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