Yagya history

To discuss the BK and PBK versions of the factual Yagya history from the beginning.
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bansy
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How and where did the BKWSU first grow outside India

Post by bansy » 07 Jan 2007

Just to kick off a new thread :
  • Anyone got the distribution of BKs around the world ?

    Outside India and Sri Lanka, the families in UK and Australia and USA are seemingly larger, but many of the Dadis first made their first trips out into the world to the Far East. What happened then ?

    Could it be that, other than UK, these countries have a shorter history and so almost "everything goes" there. So it is safe to introduce anything ?

    Or could it be due to follow the English language, since the British empire was waning but the American empire dawning in the 40s ?

    Or could it be that these countries are generally richer than most of the world, so world service should start with the rich, rather than starting with the poorer countries ?

    Or could it because the Indians who immigrated in the 1940s-60s went to these richer countries in search of richer pastures, and so the BKs followed suit ?
Or drama ?

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Post by arjun » 07 Jan 2007

Om Shanti.
Although it is true that the foreign service by BKs first of all began with the Far East (Japan) but the foreign service was concentrated and picked up momentum in the West, especially in England and Europe.

This might have something to do with the colonial rule of Britishers in India and the resultant karmic accounts that they might be having with the Indians. And since it is the Britishers and Europeans who settled in America and Australia, the BK foreign service then spread to these two continents also much quickly.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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Post by fluffy bunny » 08 Jan 2007

arjun wrote:Although it is true that the foreign service by BKs first of all began with the Far East (Japan) but the foreign service was concentrated and picked up momentum in the West, especially in England and Europe.
What is the significance of the first service being done in Japan?

Actually, Japan has quite ancient links to India both through religion, e.g. Hinduism, Buddhist, and trade, e.g. cotton.

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Post by bansy » 08 Jan 2007

This thread was raised from the "Lee James" thread, and so is the following quote :
ex-l wrote:It is interesting that you bring up the Japanese because they are one of a few nations
and from this thread
ex-l wrote:What is the significance of the first service being done in Japan?

I've always linked it, possibly, to the nuclear bombings and so some karma to settle, but then there have been many wars in the past. In addition, the Russians seems to have made more of a mark in the Murlis but their stance in the 50s was "Communism", so it's bad there. Now recently capitalistic communist China is also taking the mantle. Whereas Americas and Australias, from my basic understanding of geography and history school lessons, were not discovered a long time ago (OK, they did not need discovering since they were there in the first place). If it is down to karmic accounts, would the souls of the original settlers (the Aborigines, Red Indians) in these countries, could they be brahmin souls? The Confluence Age is the time to settle all karmic accounts from all previous births.

Pause. I've raced through that jigsaw puzzle.

OK, back to the history class, or World Drama class, in a nutshell. Golden Age. Everyone came from India. No one else is living around the world since it has been flooded. Singing and dancing every day. Silver Age. Start to pack bags and move out, a few go to Sri Lanka to do the Ramayana, others to the East to later spread Buddhism whilst others head to the West to start Islam at the dawn of the Copper Age. Europe including Russia soon comes with Jesus's followers. Africa later and Americas and Australia much later. Or so it seems. Brahmin souls go through 84 births. Other than India and Sri Lanka, which countries would a brahmin soul have been reborn most over and over, and have most karma, given by now this is the last brahmin birth in the Confluence Age and you've ended up wherever you are now (well, there could be time for one or two more births :lol: before Destruction).

The "History and Geography" is always mentioned in the Murli by ShivBaba, but why does He keep mentioning it ? The remembrance and Yoga and seva are our loving connection with Him at all times and our application of the virtues with Him. We all make effort wherever we are living. But what is the significance He keeps insisting on studying these seemingly mundane school subjects. He doesn't tell us to study science, biology and physics, or even maths, not repeatedly. Is it so as that we can understand truly how to be World Servers and World Benefactors. To serve the world is to appreciate the qualities and respect of the peoples of the world ?

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Post by bansy » 18 Jan 2007

ex-l wrote:What is the significance of the first service being done in Japan?
bansy wrote:Or could it because the Indians who immigrated in the 1940s-60s went to these richer countries in searchof richer pastures, and so the BKs followed suit ?
In the "Alokik Life Story, Dawn of A New Deity World", which is an autobiography of Dada Chandrahas (who created the idea of the master picture of the Wheel, which he drew together with Dada Visha Ratan), explains;
"In Hydrabad (in Sindh), there were two communities of Sindhis. One was called Amil and the other was the Bhaibandh community ... The Amil tended to be well educated and took jobs in the government as collectors or as lawyers and doctors ... In contrast those from the Bhaibandh community did not have such interest in education. They would study a little and then took to business. They would go to places like Hong Kong, Japan, Singapore, China, Africa, Trinadad and Tobago for 2-3 years and return to Sindh for 6 months after earning a lot of money and go back again to those place."
I think some of the countries were included in the first trip outside of India made by Dadi Prakashmani and Dadi Ratanmohini, as Sindhis lived and worked in those countries.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 07 Feb 2007

An interesting written quotation from one of the BKWSU IT Team in London, working on the Wikipedia article, who critises the translation of some of the PBK Avyakt Murli/Vani quotes, in a typically patronizing manner, as "poor" without offering any "official" version.

In it Simon claims to have spoken to BKs that were around at the time of the 1976 Destruction and have "no recollection" of the Murli quotes. Typically, the matter is handled vaguely and it is not made clear whether he refers to the Destruction prediction events or the actual quotes. "No recollection" is the typical response from politician when they get up to something corrupt and tallies with the BKWSU "do not confirm, do not deny" style policy.

He claims that, the Murlis "are internal documents of the organisation", despite the fact they used to sold and freely available to the public ... and are not published externally. "Peer review and fact checking" appear to be taking on an Orwellian meaning ... I think we would understand it as re-writing.

Funnily enough, the family of the author of the BKWSU Child Abuse Incident Report were in Gyan at the time of the 1976 Destruction Prediction and, as I understand, they like many other BKs, especially in India, left the organization in disgust.
  • They have a fine recollection of such event and so one wonders how Jayanti and Janki in London have forgotten already?
Whose recollection and account of the facts do we trust the most?
Simon Blandford wrote:"reference to BKWSU published websites"

The main website http://www.BKWSU.org is subject to internal review and fact-checking, for example, with regard to the current number of centres and students. There a many other centres that have created their own websites independently but may contain factual errors, out of date information or have fallen into disuse. The Indian version of our website has not had the same degree of peer review and fact checking.

"reference to BKWSU scriptures called 'Murlis'"

Murlis are not thought of as "scriptures" within the BKWSU. In Wikipedia terms, these are internal documents of the organisation. I have also checked the Murlis concerned and the quotes that 195.82.106.244 produces are not in fact anywhere to be found. I then double-checked with students and teachers who were around in the university at that time (1969-1976) and they have no recollection of such statements being made in Murlis. Such statements would clearly be memorable if they did indeed exist as quoted. Since Murlis are not published externally by the University, they cannot be sourced from a reputable, easily verifiable source. It is clear that even such an interested party as 195.82.106.244 has been unable himself to access authentic Murlis - as evidenced by the false citations.
Shivsena ... You say you have the original Murlis from this time?

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Post by john » 07 Feb 2007

How far will they go?

It's a concern. It's also comical asking those who were around between 1969-1976 if they remember the 1976 Destruction fiasco and they are all like scratching their heads, raising eyebrows and saying 'nope, I don't think I do, it was a fantastic cricket season though' ...

Maybe Hanuman from ex-BK-Chat could be contacted, he was actually at Madhuban in 1976.

Like all good chess players you should be many moves ahead.

If they are to be backed into a corner, it should be done safe in the knowledge that they cannot destroy or 'bury' any evidence they may hold.

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Post by shivsena » 07 Feb 2007

ex-l wrote: It is clear that even such an interested party as 195.82.106.244 has been unable himself to access authentic Murlis - as evidenced by the false citations.
Shivsena ... You say you have the original Murlis from this time?
Dear ex-l,

i have the xerox copies of the Murlis between june 1965 to jan 1969; i may not have all the Murlis in serial order but i have 5 registers of the original Murlis; also i have about 15 registers of revised Murlis (each contaning about 80 Murlis) and i have been reading them intensely and i have come to many startling revelations, which i have been discussing with the PBKs in mumbai.

I visited the above IP address which you have mentioned but i am not able to log on to that website; can you please tell me the name of the website, so that i can see which Murlis are quoted on the site.

shivsena.

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Post by bansy » 07 Feb 2007

Someone is lying. Either it is the BKWSU. It is those who left the BKWSU, in 1976 or otherwise. Or it is the Murlis themselves that are a pack of lies.

It's all a fiasco. The Murlis are so important that the have to be discussed in this way and put into internal secret places, so secret for it to be the only way they are used to reveal the "truth". Or could that be "lies".

It is very very sad for Murlis to be treated this way. Maybe there is no value in them after all, put into a dark celler and locked away.

So to all you official 825,000 BKs (as to date) who go to the morning classes, rest assured that your morning Murlis are indeed the absolute truth, because that is what you're absolutely going to get. Don't even hesitate to even think where they originate from. Because the BKWSU are not going to reveal that to you. And if you get any Murlis, make sure you lock them away too. Secrecy begets secrecy. When the time of destruction comes, you may find that the only way to keep warm is to burn them. :cry:

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Post by arjun » 07 Feb 2007

Secrecy begets secrecy
Yes, it is very much true in case of Murlis published by the BKs. In India they are becoming more and more strict in giving out Murlis even to their own BKs. They see everyone with suspicion. "Is he/she going to Shankar Party? Is he/she in contact with the PBKs? Is he/she going to supply copies of the Murlis to PBKs?" so on and so forth.

Last year, one of my PBK friends from India went to US for a few months on personal work. Since there are negligible PBKs in US that too scattered at different corners, he wanted to attend the Murli classes at the local BK center, but was refused permission by the concerned teacher asking him to bring a letter from the BK center in India. These strict rules started mainly in the 1990s to stop the progress of Advance Party (PBKs).

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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Post by arjun » 07 Feb 2007

ex-l wrote:An interesting written quotation from one of the BKWSU IT Team in London, working on the Wikipedia article, who critises the translation of some of the PBK Avyakt Murli/Vani quotes, in a typically patronizing manner, as "poor" without offering any "official" version.
The above charge of BKs does not merit any clarification, but I feel it is my duty to clarify. First of all the PBKs would not need to translate any BK Murli/Avyakt Vani if the BKs make it available at least to all those who need them (if not to the entire world).

PBKs generally possess either the original Sakar/revised Sakar Murlis published by the BKs in Hindi before or after Brahma Baba's demise. Most of them possess the photocopies of these Murlis. But most PBKs possess the compilation of Avyakt Vanis published by BKs in Hindi in the form of yearwise books. PBKs possess very few Murlis that were published by the BKs in English. But now we are getting access to many English Murlis through the PBKs from Western countries. But in case of the Murlis that are available with the PBKs in Hindi only, we have to resort to translation with the limited human resources of amateur translators. Even then the Murli quotes that have been presented in this forum as 'materials approved by ShivBaba (through Baba Virendra Dev Dixit)' like the Q&A thread, Murli points thread, the Dharana points thread are checked/vetted by the nimit sisters before being released. But to remove any kind of mistakes/misunderstanding the Hindi version of the same is also released along with the English translation so that any person who knows Hindi as well as English can compare both the versions himself/herself to check the translation. In case any major factual/typographical error is found, it is immediately corrected and the corrected versions are circulated to everyone immediately.

Besides, you must have observed from the extracts of clarification Murlis posted in the PBKs section that wherever necessary Hindi words are inserted within brackets in the English text to make the meaning more clear. Similarly, while circulating the same in Hindi script, all the words that Baba has used in English are also typed in Roman script within brackets. Both these steps (i.e. Hindi words in English script and vice-versa) are being taken only to improve the Hindi knowledge of the non-Hindi speaking PBKs (including foreign based PBKs) so that one fine day they need not read the English version at all. They can directly understand the Hindi version without needing any translation. But I have not seen any such measure being undertaken by the BKs in the BK Murlis/Avyakt Vanis published by them so far.

I and many other PBKs would accept that the English translation being provided by the PBKs may not be 100 percent perfect. Translation is such a field that even if two professional translators translate the same text from a source language to a target language, there is bound to be difference in both the translations. What is important is that whether the original sense is being conveyed in the translation or not. And I think if any person who compares the BK and PBK versions of the quotations from this season's Avyakt Vanis, he/she would agree that there is not much difference between both of them. BKs have all the financial and human resources at their disposal to translate any number of texts, but the PBKs have to manage with the limited resources. So, before criticizing the PBKs of poor translation the concerned BKs (who might be reading this post) should think & churn whether the objective of translation is being fulfilled or not. Of what use is the translation of Godly versions which is kept out of bounds of those who yearn for it????

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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Post by bansy » 07 Feb 2007

Translation.

As you know, the Murlis are generally in Hindi (forget about the Sindi-Hindi issue for the moment, that's in another thread). The next step is the likely translation into English.

Well, what about the poor Russian, French, Korean, Icelandic, etc in all the other 100 countries around the world. For them, are the Murlis being translated from Hindi to the local language directly or is it being translated from Hindi then to English and then to the local language. So how "poor" can those double or triple translations get ? Well, providing the BKWSU can find Hindi devotees who have lived in those countries for years and are somewhat bilingual, then they would be useful to serve in those countries. However the translation of the Murlis is only as good as those BK translators, which is therefore usually someone in charge of their centre or country, and whom you'd find sitting in the translation boxes in Shantivan or Pandav Bhavan when there is a class or a BapDada meeting. You'll HAVE to trust the translator.

Hence you would have noticed that when the BKWSU first went out to do world service, they had to go into the local Indian communities and find the Sindis who were working abroad, and recruiting them to work for them.

So whilst for Hindi speakers and English speakers, the level and accuracy of translation is most likely to be quite high given the resources, what about the BK standard of the validation techniques for those in other languages ?

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Post by arjun » 16 Feb 2007

ex-l wrote:What is the significance of the first service being done in Japan?
Om Shanti. As I was going through the Part-I of the life story of Brahma Baba in Hindi titled "Jeevan ko paltaaney vali ek jeevan kahani" I found a reference about the trip of BK Dadi Prakashmani, and BK Ratanmohini to Japan in 1954. They had visited 'Shimiju' city to participate in a World Religions Conference. They had gone there on the invitation of a religious institution named 'Ananai-Kyo'. This institution gave them letters addressed to other organizations affiliated to it. The representative of the Press Trust of India in Far Eastern Countries and the Ambassador of India also extended cooperation to them. Some newspapes carried the Godly pictures and message.

Another Buddhist institution named Tenrikyo voluntarily published a lot of copies of the picture of World Tree, which were distributed to a lot of people. The Gujarati and Marwari business people listened to the knowledge keenly. Quoting BK Anand Kishoreji, the book says that they went to Hong Kong, Singapore, Malaya, Jakarta, etc. also in connection with Godly service.

Regards,
OGS,
Arjun

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Post by bansy » 16 Feb 2007

I read somewhere in Purity magazine that 52 years on, a large delegation of that Japanese sect Ananai-Kyo visited Om Shanti Retreat Centre in Delhi in 2006.

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Evolution of Gyan

Post by john » 26 Feb 2007

Going on from Bansy's post in another thread.
bansy wrote:However, in the Murlis, it does say you can teach anyone after one day and all you need is 3 square feet. However, it took the Dadis 14 years in relative isolation in the Yagya before they were set free to serve the world.
It would be interesting to know the evolution of Gyan.
  • • Did the Gyan of the 7 day course as was first used in service after 1951 evolve over the 14 year Karachi period?
    • What I mean is was it all revealed from the first year or so, or did it take 14 years to evolve?
    • Did it carry on evolving after that and in what way?
    • Were there revelations made along the way, for example; the soul as a point of light revealed in 1941, the Cycle of Time in 1946, the Tree in 1949, at what point in time were all the big points of the 7 day course all revealed and ready to roll?
I think understanding this could also lead to understanding how Shiva teaches. i.e. were points only revealed after the churning was done, thus enabling the BKs to understand them at that particular time.

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