Psychological profiling of the Om Mandli, God or No God?

To discuss the BK and PBK versions of the factual Yagya history from the beginning.
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Psychological profiling of the Om Mandli, God or No God?

Post by fluffy bunny » 23 Jun 2007

I have been reading the original materials and churning this issue of "God Brahma", taking on board that the title Prajapita God Brahma might have been "god" as in Dev for deity rather than Bhagwan, Paramatma or any other title for a Supreme Entity.

Of course, until the Brahma Kumaris become honest and release original materials in Hindi, there is no way of us knowing ... but what is in support of this theory is other comments made by Om Radhe that "no one can be God who is impure with vices" and claims that only Lekhraj Kirpalani was impure of vices at that time, so only he can be called God. What impression does this give us of their conception of God?

Now ... this throws up a number of issues;

a) If Lekhraj Kirpalani was NOT considered to be The God (Brahma or otherwise) but only a god or deity, a status to which any BK follower could aspire ...
  • that means that for the first 20 years or so, the Brahma Kumaris were essentially atheists, or more accurately following what they would call the sanyasi of "worshipping" the Brahm Element.
That is to say, and underline, there was no mention of a personality called God, never mind Shiva ... there was only mention of and faith in the "Infinite Divine Light".

No one has been able to come back and refute any of these findings nor provide references to how and when a personal God was introduced to the BKWSU.

b) If Lekhraj Kirpalani had become completely pure by 1938/39 and was in his god deity status, totally unique amongst all of humanity, why did he have to continue making efforts, why did he have to burn of karma through illness and even finally a death by heart ache?
  • How and when the Brahma Kumaris come to realise this was not true?
    Was it an incognito Shiva that led them to believe this?
    Was it an incognito Shiva that spoke through Lekhraj Kirpalani to state this was so?
    Why did the incognito Shiva, i.e. the Shiva that had not manifest himself yet in name or form, hide himself and allow such Bhakti of Lekhraj Kirpalani?
These are very serious matters!

I am attempting to unveil a truer picture of the psychology and mental atmosphere in the Om Mandli and early years of the PBIVV (BKWSU). OK, so we can easily dismiss this as whacky Hindoo bottom kissing on behalf of Lekhraj Kirpalani's gopes and gopis. The kind of bottom kissing that Jagdish Chander and Janki Kripalani institutionalised. (I am still stuck to find out who the original and English language scribe was in the 30s and 40s, when did Chander come into Gyan?).

We can surmise why Janki Kripalani institutionalised worshipping her 'Krishna' (Lekhraj Kirpalani), surely? She was still so overwrought with having left Gyan to get married, having sex, not liking it, and then running back to Lekhraj Kirpalani (NOTE: NOT Shiva BABA BECAUSE HE DID NOT EXIST THEN) ... would it be too much to suggest there was a little guilt and shame involved there especially as the Purity stakes were raised?

Now, let us start with the psychological baseline of the gopes and gopis;
  • they were mainly, young,
    they were highly uneducated Vaishnavite bhagats (Krishna/Vishnu worshippers),
    they were utterly dependent, mentally, physically and financially on the male figurehead in their life for daily subsistance (as we have discussed with Andrey relating to the orthodox Hindu views of women that permeate Gyan even now),
    they were tripping out of their bodies, having visions, going into trances, having ghosts all over the place, performing all sorts of uncharted spiritual activities.

    And let us also bear in mind that the Vedas, the scriptural and spiritual knowledgebase of Hinduism, were basically only written and taught in Sanskrit at that time (as, say, the Christian Popes only ever allowed The Bible to be written and spoken in Latin).
I say "basically: become some reform movements such as the Arya Samaj were attempting at this time to democractise the scirptures and teach them in Hindi. More later on the Arya Samaj, as they are mentioned in the Murlis.

So, what else can we add to this rising image of the state of mind of the Brahma Kumaris?

Now, my first point is to state the obvious ... that 20 years of mental conditioning, in an tightly enclosed "world rejecting" order of 200 people locked away from the ever changing nature of Reality, does not go away over night!!! ... any one with any sanskars, not to say personality, will know that these do not disappear easily, or at all.

But my major concern is ... who was actually saying what by way of a Murli or spiritual instructions??? What was that mental conditioning??? ... this has been removed from our vision by the leadership of the BKWSU and so it makes it much more difficult for us to distinguish and filter out the errors that were implanted into their minds and permeate through the BKWSU even now as their knowledge and powerbase ... Not just the first 20 years, which takes us up to 1942 or later but even up until the formalized 1960 Murlis that are used for the Murli cycle today. That is, 30 years of mental programming.

In essence, I suggest that what we are doing here is back-engineering the BK source code to question and remove or disable the erroneous software and, perhaps, even the erroneous programmers.

What clues we have to work on so far are;
  • that other mediums and trance messengers were used,
    that, perhaps, Narain Shewakram was involved,
    that Lekhraj Kirpalani just wrote stuff (automatic/psychic writing?) and then it was checked out by some sister/medium (and with some spook?)
So what other clues do we have of their knowledge or practises? Of course, during this time, the psychic power, group spirit or egregore was being built up through ritualistic group practise, singing and chanting.

Over to you ...

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Post by yudhishtira » 25 Jun 2007

Taking on board that the title "Prajapita God Brahma" might have been "god" as in Dev for deity rather than Bhagwan, Paramatma or any other title for a Supreme Entity?

Thank you for that, ducks! Remember I did mention that a while back? Anyway, I also think it would be interesting to consider along side this, a pyschological profile of God and what His problems would be in trying to communicate with totally body conscious humans. Assuming there is a God and He really was trying to communicate knowledge again at this time.
  • - any divine influence that people experienced would be projected onto existing deities, as they had no understanding of a bodiless God.
    - any words spoken would be assumed to be coming from the person speaking them, not God
    - human motivations would be ascribed to God, i.e. anger, fear, judgement etc
    - instructions given concerning actions would be given more value by human beings than instructions concerning consciousness, i.e. remembrance and soul consciousness are given less importance in the Yagya than service and action because we are action conscious
    - there is the 'boy crying wolf' syndrome; there are so many humans claiming to channel God, if you are God - how would you be able to truly communicat that?
    - human beings have assumptions about what God is and what He/It/She would be able to do, i.e. that God should do miracles, bring back the dead, the normal Sai Baba type of magic tricks. But God being God, by the spiritual laws that bind Him cant do that, so visions and experience would be the only way of changing souls attitude for those steeped in Bhakti before there was true understanding
Is it therefore possible to consider the explanation that it took a long time to convey the accurate knowledge because Shiv Baba had to work through the filter of a body-conscious intellect (Brahma) who, after all, has been kicking around the longest in the Cycle and who actually started Bhakti?

And I will just say this, if I know God as He is, who He is, what He is, I can go straight to the source. I do not need to have been an original Dadi or Dada or have connection with them. No one can actually prevent me from connecting with Shiv Baba, whether they release the original Hindi materials or not.

Let's not go down the path of the JBs of this world who believe that only the Dadis of this world can really get close to God. She actually said recently that they are the roots and when we are in connection with them we are in connection with the seed ... that puts the rest of us in the Copper Age!!

As per the rest of your well laid out points, I promise to come back with the translation of that poem and some other material within the next 2 weeks.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 25 Jun 2007

yudhishtira wrote:Taking on board that the title "Prajapita God Brahma" might have been "god" as in Dev for deity rather than Bhagwan, Paramatma or any other title for a Supreme Entity?
Yes, of course. We have to look at every angle. What we really need is much more original material.

There are a LOT of BK pre-programming or preconceptions there that I cannot take on board and have stripped out out my operating system, e.g. Lekhraj Kirpalani starting Bhakti, the Cycle as taught etc. Ditto, there is other stuff the the BK propogate such as humans not being able to envisage or relate to sparks of light etc - which is entirely not true as it appears elsewhere in pre-dated Bhakti. But 20 odd years ... how dumb or hard headed what he and the rest of them!?!

The image we have obviously been sold of 'The God Thing' is so largely and clearly based on Lekhraj Kirpalani and Krishna Bhakti. As we peel away this layer of delusion, and long term deceit, I am still left asking who and what is God? Even the BK God.

In a way, I am wondering if the older more abstract view of "God" is actually more valid and accurate.

I think most individuals on this forum would agree that what is speaking through Hirday Mohini is at least "largely" still Lekhraj Kirpalani. Even within the BK, I know many think this. The demonstrations the like a Janki puts on are too much like some lover meeting again her estranged beloved Kripalani.

This issue of "influence" is the one that remains to me.
  • How many of us believes that Shiva actually speaks and how many that he influences his mediums to speak?
Perhaps the Shiva thing is actually something much more sublte and above this world, as the PBKs raise the question stating accurately that according to the Murli, "it is not possile to tell when he enters and leaves" and that he comes only when he wants.

To be honest, if it is a BK translation I am not interested. I am sorry but ... 50 years of lies and connivances ... I have lost respect for these people and any trust will have to be re-earned only by providing hard-core evidence.

The sort of truths we are getting to here are too big for most BKs and would prove too much of a challenge to their mindset ... and particularly ... their place in the BK social order. They would probably be bannished if they came out with it in class.


What I am interested in is a lot more publish material of this age ... and, especially, documentation of the change, the Golden Circle, the names of the English language authors, other Divine Decrees ... and so on. Get 'The Resistance's' Secret Service Wing working on it now. here is the BK's chance to restore some credibility.


In the meanwhile, one interesting thing to do is ask, "what would I have done if I was God and came to Earth?"

Personally, I would laid down some complete record of the truth, even in folks could not have understood it, and then spent 30, 40, 50 ... years explaining it them. The way it has been done, it tooks to me that the Shiva entity is learning and adopting and expanding and accumulating world knowledge and experience as he goes ... which would make him more alien than he has been portrayed in his Baby Krishna form of Lekhraj Kirpalani.

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Post by yudhishtira » 25 Jun 2007

In the meanwhile, one interesting thing to do is ask, "what would I have done if I was God and came to Earth?"

Personally, I would laid down some complete record of the truth, even in folks could not have understood it, and then spent 30, 40, 50 ... years explaining it them. The way it has been done, it tooks to me that the Shiva entity is learning and adopting and expanding and accumulating world knowledge and experience as he goes ... which would make him more alien than he has been portrayed in his Baby Krishna form of Lekhraj Kirpalani.
Imagine this. You are bodiless. You cant speak for yourself without having to use a human's brain which has a totally dead intellect, who cannot comprehend who or what itself is, let alone what you are ...
  • How do perceive the process of Shiv Baba speaking through Brahma?
    Do you think he would override the human consciousness and possess him entirely?
    Or is he feeding thoughts into Brahma's mind which then have to go through the filter of Brahma's consciousness?
This is important in its implications.

Your statement suggests you believe the former.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 25 Jun 2007

yudhishtira wrote:Or is he feeding thoughts into Brahma's mind which then have to go through the filter of Brahma's consciousness? This is important in its implications.

Your statement suggests you believe the former.
The answer is easy, I would fully possess a more compliant brain nearby him that he trusted, like his business partner, and try and explain to the doughball what was going on in plain Hindi ... That is basically Gyan a la PBK and makes a bit of sense.

I don't know. There are a lot of presumptions and presets here again. I would like to open this up to the floor and ask other's opionion before I color them.

For me, there are no given facts in this equation. Lekhraj Kirpalani was not dumb. He was very astute and in the prime of his life. A very clean, healthy, self-made millionaire in his early 50s seeking early retirement to setting our to follow his hobby interests. Put it this way, if you were a spook and wanted to expand your dominion, what kind of host would you chose to act through and how would you go about taking him over?

Question, what state of consciousness did Shiva have on arrival? How does and can he work?

The funny thing is, I think this thread could develop into one entirely Kosher for Orthodox BKs ... if they can accept and get over the hump of the missing 20 of years. I underline, the most interesting and important information we lack are the note, documentation and recollections of how, when and through who Shiva was revealled. Without those, these - and the rest of BK BRahmain life - are just waste thoughts.

HOW CAN THEY HIDE AND COVER THIS UP!?! WHAT HAPPENED? WAS JANKI KRIPALANI OFF ON HOLIDAY SOMEWHERE? WAS PRAKASHMANI HAVING A BAD SARI DAY!?! DID NIRWAIR HAVE NO SHARP PENCILS AND CHANDER LOSE HIS GLASSES!?! THE WAXED CYLINDERS RUNOUT OF THE RECORDING MACHINE ... ALL AT THE SAME TIME.

I think we are due a response ... including clarification of Kripalani's relationship with Shewakram.

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Post by john » 25 Jun 2007

Yuddhistra

I think we have to accept the idea that we have more than likely been lied to about the history and origins of the BKSWU.

It is said in normal life history is not written, it's rewritten. BKSWU are showing the same human traits, but trying to give a totally clean, divine face to it all. To me, they have done the same as all religions and history writers. They have rewritten it to suit a particular agenda.

What I am interested in, is the why?

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Post by yudhishtira » 25 Jun 2007

These are the kind of discussions vs the state of mind of God etc, that I wish the BKs would have !!! I consider it ironic that some of the most stimulating spritual discussions I can have are on website aimed at ex-BKs!
ex-l wrote:Question, what state of consciousness did Shiva have on arrival? How does and can he work?
Good questions. Well, I guess we have the version that Shiv Baba says about himself (if you care to believe that)
  • "I am unlimited. I cannot make you unlimited otherwise how would the game of the world continue? ...you cannot become this for ever ... I am ever pure. I reside in Paramdham. I have knowledge and purity always."
    "I am constant, I am beyond birth and rebirth. I never become young and old."
This is interesting ...
  • "Brahma doesnt establish the new world. The Creator is the Father. He says: I come and tactfully inspire the Destruction of the old world and create the new world"
(The juxtaposition of the words "tactful" and "Destruction" are a bit bizarre!) and
  • "He himself doesnt do anything, He is Karankaravanhaar"
The whole "how does He work" thing is very interesting. I like the example of a catalyst. By combining with a substances it creates a totally new substance, yet remains unchanged itself.

So, as I see it, Shiv Baba is not affected by us but is able to "influence us" . The exact nature of how this influence works is a very big discussion topic!
Put it this way, if you were a spook and wanted to expand your dominion, what kind of host would you chose to act through and how would you go about taking him over?
That presuposes that you have human desires to "expand your dominion" does it not? If you were the Ocean of Truth, would you now choose a Chariot who had the greatest desire to express and explore truth, not some easily manipulated person who would not be able to last the course of taking all the flack associated with being God's Chariot?

The real issue here is that, as the chap often says himself, very few know him how he is. I mean, how easy is it to relate to someone with no desires, who is totally unconditional, doesnt take anything, and has a totally alien moderus operandi to all humans! No wonder they all ended up with a Brahma fixation. Much easier and preferable ...

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Post by fluffy bunny » 25 Jun 2007

yudhishtira wrote:No wonder they all ended up with a Brahma fixation. Much easier and preferable ...
Yes, there are a whole load more Vaishnavites in India that Shaivites.

Sorry to up the ante on you here but we really need original dates for Murli quotes, i.e. the original dates not the revised dates. We are all Murlis snobs here and want to be able to the full provenance of the quotations.

To be honest. I can no longer believe that is Shiva talking. Too much Lekhraj Kirpalani and BKWSU in it. I do not even know if Shiva CAN talk. I do not even know if Shiva is an entity, or just a state or level of consciousness. It could conceivable just be many entities, for good or bad.

As said ... before we can go forward, we need this MASSIVE gap between the proven God Brahma of 193x to 195x and the unproven God Shiva of xxxx onwards to be bridged with good corroborating evidence. I am about to prove to you how the leadership of the BKWSU has propogated institutions lies over the alleged history in a shortwhile. It pulls the rug from under their authority.

It tough to say but Lekhraj Kirpalani could not, and did not, go the distance. The whole "Shivohum Story" and the red light bulbs in the eye appears to be entirely bunk now. So, how do they explain that away?

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Post by yudhishtira » 26 Jun 2007

Sorry to up the ante on you here but we really need original dates for Murli quotes, i.e. the original dates not the revised dates. We are all Murlis snobs here and want to be able to the full provenance of the quotations.
I do not think anyone in the West has those, due to the fact they are never printed on the Sakar Murlis. Frankly, would you believe it any more if you had dates they gave you? 8)

I wonder what proof would be now acceptable to this forum ... anything these days can be fabricated, cant it? If you do not believe something, you do not believe it. No one on the planet will be able to prove it to you in that case.

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Post by john » 26 Jun 2007

I do not think anyone in the West has those, due to the fact they are never printed on the Sakar Murlis. Frankly; would you believe it any more if you had dates they gave you? 8)
It has been told on the forum that those from the London headquarters revise (change/update) the English Murlis, therefore one would assume they have the original dates.
I wonder what proof would be now acceptable to this forum... anything these days can be fabricated cant it? if you do not believe something, you do not believe it; no one on the planet will be able to prove it to you in that case.
Without all the evidence (all Murlis from day 1), how can anything be proven for definite? At least let everyone be presented with all the knowledge and then they can decide for themselves.

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Post by fluffy bunny » 26 Jun 2007

yudhishtira wrote:I do not think anyone in the West has those, due to the fact they are never printed on the Sakar Murlis.

I wonder what proof would be now acceptable to this forum ...
When did this practise of removing the original dates start? Let us ask.

It is a new habit designed to make it more difficult for BKWSU followers to check with the original version to examine the ways in which they are being re-written. It is terrible.


You see here, Yude, is where this forum is unique at keeping alive even the truth and history of the BKWSU for future BKs who care about accuracy.

All the Murlis used to have their original dates on them. Many BKs and many centers still have old copies. It should be possible for any BK to be able to ask and recieve an accurate answer. If they won't, we will soon.

What proof is acceptable? That is easy, and I have stated some of it above.

This institutionally programmed response ... "if you do not believe something, you do not believe it. No one on the planet will be able to prove it to you in that case" ... is terribly insulting and nothing more than a slippery yukti to deflect uncomfortably closer inspection, propagated by the individuals that are whoring out and corrupting Gyan for their own ends.

Where are the post-1949 letters and notes of when the BKWSU changed from worshipping Lekhraj Kirpalani to the entrance of Shiva? Where are the earlier Murlis, Divine Decrees etc?

Can you not see how big this is!?! How and when did it happen and what decree was sent out by who to change Gyan?

I am upset with you for using that yukti on me. It is dishonorable of a Gyani soul to assignate faithlessness upon it. I am upset at being condemned and swept aside because blind faith and BKWSU-style Bhakti is not good enough for me.

Cant you see how the leadership of the BKWS University are gradually pushing everything in to a grey formless, indiscrete, unaccountable and ambiguous mush? Its hardly a university level way of doing things ... where has your passion for truth gone? Do they teach BKs now to reach an "acceptable" level of truth, accept their sub-senior status, and then give up trying? Should not they, and you, be challenged over this?

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Post by abrahma kumar » 26 Jun 2007

ex-l wrote:When did this practise of removing the original dates start? Let us ask.
... Don't know when it started but it is definitely recent. I will do some research and feedback.

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Post by yudhishtira » 26 Jun 2007

This institutionally programmed response ... "if you do not believe something, you do not believe it. No one on the planet will be able to prove it to you in that case" ... is terribly insulting and nothing more than a slippery yukti to deflect uncomfortably closer inspection, propagated by the individuals that are whoring out and corrupting Gyan for their own ends.
I am sorry you feel that way but that was not my intention at all. It applies to all things does it not? If I had never had any experience of God, I certainly wouldn't have hung around for the toli ... It all comes down to perception. If I have an experience of something previously, whether it be negative or positive, it will colour all my future dealings. I am not saying that is wrong, it is just a reality of human experience.

Are you telling me that if someone went and found the "lost Murlis", that you had all the dates and the original teachings in your hands, all the details of the original Yagya that you would ever want, that you would regain your belief that God is speaking through Brahma etc and it is not some alternate spirit or the ghost of Dada? I am not being provocative here. I am asking, would that really be enough for you?
am upset with you for using that yukti on me. It is dishonorable of a Gyani soul to assignate faithlessness upon it. I am upset at being condemned and swept aside because blind faith and BKWSU-style Bhakti is not good enough for me.
I am not assigning faithlessness, I am asking, how much is enough? If you feel you have been condemned by me, I am sorry. That was never my intention, you know I respect your position and have said that before to you personally.

I guess I was interested to know, as it seems to be an issue here, how much is enough when it comes to physical proofs? And I have a right to speak my mind without being slam dunked by you for something that was not my intention. Believe me, I do not run on blind faith but I do trust my heart, because its the only thing thats kept me safe and sane all these years. Its the thing that told me, "hey; you cant trust all these people with your life, but God is really there for you, and so are a couple of your friends"

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Post by fluffy bunny » 26 Jun 2007

yudhishtira wrote:Are you telling me that if someone went and found the "lost Murlis", that you had all the dates and the original teachings in your hands, all the details of the original Yagya that you would ever want, that you would regain your belief that God is speaking through Brahma etc and it is not some alternate spirit or the ghost of Dada?
Excuse me, its Wimbledon time and I was practising by ex-BK forearm smash ...

God along is not enough. In fact, God alone can do nothing. It is all that meat that is in the way between him and the front doors of the BKWSU centers is the problem. I am glad to hear that you have a few good friends. That is a very, good thing. My ire is not aimed at "Him" but those that stand in front of him blocking the light.

To mix my sporting metaphors, I feel like a quarter-back holding a ball working my way through a field of fat linemen and when I see one of their tackles coming my way, I will palm it off as quick as I can. To be honest, the entire BK Family ought be thrill watching this match as we work our way to finding out the truth of it all.
  • No Shiva 1932 to 1949 ... Lekhraj Kirpalani not 60 in 1936 ... BKWSU leadership faking history and re-writing philosophy ... come on sister ... get yourself up on your two feet and start play ball!
No, I and we will not know what it is really all about until it is over. That's just a fact. In the meanwhile, all we can do is try and stop those that are pee-peeing, poop-pooping and throwing their dead corpses into the Ganges of Knowledge.

Me ... I am just a spiritual environmentalist, a sanitary engineer unplugging the divine sewers and drain so that all the efluence can drain out.

Yes ... if you do not want to be duped, you should demand purity and accuracy out of these people; original Murlis, full translations, explainations for discrepancies, honest history. Otherwise, you do not know who you are having Yoga with.

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Post by yudhishtira » 27 Jun 2007

Excuse me, its Wimbledon time and I was practising by ex-BK forearm smash ...

Yes ... reflex action there I can see! We do not all come out from a BK mould, you know!! I do not need to be put back in a box by anyone!! I leave that to the organisation, who have very little understanding of how to treat people as individuals and appreciate their individual specialities!
God along is not enough. In fact, God alone can do nothing. It is all that meat that is in the way between him and the front doors of the BKWSU centers is the problem. I am glad to hear that you have a few good friends. That is a very, good thing. My ire is not aimed at "Him" but those that stand in front of him blocking the light.
Can I clarify then, how do you see God ? It sounds like you do believe in God from this paragraph. I am not being arsey here, just interested to see what you have discerned for yourself through your journey.
Yes ... if you do not want to be duped, you should demand purity and accuracy out of these people; original Murlis, full translations, explainations for discrepancies, honest history. Otherwise, you do not know who you are having Yoga with.
Many have demanded, none have got ... to be honest, I try and limit my contact with these people for the sake of my sanity, and they wouldnt "give" to me anyway. I do not have any "status" in the family. However, I would be interested to know what has happened to any communication from this website clearly setting out your questions and requests for information; has this happened already and have they responded?

The difference between us is that my experience is that no one can come between me and God, no matter what tweaks have been made to the Murli, the essence of Who He Is and What He Is, ie incorporeal, unlimited, eternal, unconditional, one who doesnt take, who has an absolute positive vision of all souls, is clear. I tend to divide the Murli into the Brahma bits and the Shiv Baba bits. Shiv Baba talks of unlimited Gyan and BB rambles on about Bhakti, clothes and behaviour.

From my experience both in front of AV Bap-Dada, and in Yoga, I experience the unlimited, absolute purity and beauty the same in both circumstances. My problem is that I do not do it enough and get distracted by life. I've put these people up on a pedastal in the past and given them power over me, but enough is enough. No one can get between me and Shiv Baba unless I give them permission.

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